Shaft insert section for piloted joints

SSach

SSach

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Several cuemakers when making a shaft for a piloted joint have enough wood exposed to the brass insert to allow for a tight fit and I believe the depth of the brass insert is set so the bottom of the insert rest on the inside of the piloted joint. I have seen this done on many cues.

Here is a great example:

http://www.proficientbilliards.com/cues/Tascarella/naturalcollars/pages/DSC00703_JPG.htm

I would think that this should be standard as it provides more surface contact at the joint and better feel from shaft to butt section. What do you guys think? Do most cuemakers not do this b/c of difficulty/time involved?
 
most do it and some do it better and tighter fitting than others.Searing does it well.-R does it well.i am sure many other but i don't buy to many SS jointed cues.i like the flat-faced cues better.i think after time the wood is so thin right there that it wears and eventually the interference type fit is gone.i have also seen it done where the phenolic comes down around the insert instead of the wood.this seems like a better idea as it will not wear like the wood.
 
SSach said:
Several cuemakers when making a shaft for a piloted joint have enough wood exposed to the brass insert to allow for a tight fit and I believe the depth of the brass insert is set so the bottom of the insert rest on the inside of the piloted joint. I have seen this done on many cues.

Here is a great example:

http://www.proficientbilliards.com/cues/Tascarella/naturalcollars/pages/DSC00703_JPG.htm

I would think that this should be standard as it provides more surface contact at the joint and better feel from shaft to butt section. What do you guys think? Do most cuemakers not do this b/c of difficulty/time involved?
Click to expand...

If you would take a depth indicator as is on most dial and digital indicators, and measure the depth of the joint surface to the bottom of the joint where the pin enters the prong and then measure the length of the nub on the end of the shaft I believe you will find that there is clearance so that the end of the insert never touches the bottom of the joint.

Dick
 
If it was as big of a deal as some would have you believe, we would all be packing 60" cases for our one-piece cues.
I would bet whatever you could come up with that no one on earth would be able to tell what joint a cue has in it if you could set up a blind test.
I would love to have half a dozen cues, all balanced, weighted, and with the same exact shafts, tips, etc. (impossible) and then let people try to guess which joint was which. You would get results so all over the place, it would be laughable.
 
Sheldon said:
If it was as big of a deal as some would have you believe, we would all be packing 60" cases for our one-piece cues.
I would bet whatever you could come up with that no one on earth would be able to tell what joint a cue has in it if you could set up a blind test.
I would love to have half a dozen cues, all balanced, weighted, and with the same exact shafts, tips, etc. (impossible) and then let people try to guess which joint was which. You would get results so all over the place, it would be laughable.
Click to expand...
Tap, Tap, Tap
 
SSach said:
Several cuemakers when making a shaft for a piloted joint have enough wood exposed to the brass insert to allow for a tight fit and I believe the depth of the brass insert is set so the bottom of the insert rest on the inside of the piloted joint. I have seen this done on many cues.

Here is a great example:

http://www.proficientbilliards.com/cues/Tascarella/naturalcollars/pages/DSC00703_JPG.htm

I would think that this should be standard as it provides more surface contact at the joint and better feel from shaft to butt section. What do you guys think? Do most cuemakers not do this b/c of difficulty/time involved?
Click to expand...

Use a phenolic insert, you will get a tight fit, if it is damaged it is much easier to replace, and it cuts down on the over all weight of the cue. While it it is not seen often, Phenolic inserts can be used with any thread, and joint piloted or flat faced, and it is just as durable.
 
When properly done this style of joint will last for a very long time with no problems of it getting worn out. Each time it is inserted it is just burnishing the maple smooth..........again.....if properly done.


Not sure who was the "first" and I've heard many different reasons from different builders as to why they do it this way but .............
I believe whoever thought of it first was simply looking for a way to locate the shaft on the SS collar in the exact same place every time it was inserted because of the poor tolerances between the SS collar/brass insert and the insert and the pin.


<~~~prefers FF, pin in wood construction...........
 
I think you have all missed his question, unless it is me who missed it. He is not just referring to the nub on the shaft making contact with the joint sides, which by the way it should, but also, the nub on the shaft making firm contact with the bottom of the joint. This, in my opinion, is an absolute no no.

Dick
 
rhncue said:
I think you have all missed his question, unless it is me who missed it. He is not just referring to the nub on the shaft making contact with the joint sides, which by the way it should, but also, the nub on the shaft making firm contact with the bottom of the joint. This, in my opinion, is an absolute no no.

Dick
Click to expand...


Why is that a no? BTW I am not a cuemaker nor do I intend on becoming one in the near future. I just admire great work and attention to detail that many of you take the time to do.
 
SSach said:
Why is that a no? BTW I am not a cuemaker nor do I intend on becoming one in the near future. I just admire great work and attention to detail that many of you take the time to do.
Click to expand...


It is a NO, because if you have contact with the sides, then either the botomed out bushing OR the flats of the shaft & the metal joint collar will align the shaft to the butt. BUT YOU CAN'T SATISFY ALL 3 AT ONE TIME. Only 2 are nessasary. The sides (along with the screw),will center the shaft to the joint & the flat surfaces of the shaft & joint collar will align the straightness of the two. It is an engineering principal. You can't satisfy all 3 at one time...JER
 
SSach said:
Why is that a no? BTW I am not a cuemaker nor do I intend on becoming one in the near future. I just admire great work and attention to detail that many of you take the time to do.
Click to expand...


You could get it close ......maybe .010-.015 away.....but most definately would want to make sure the shaft collar seats on the SS and not on the insert when drawn tight, locked and loaded.
Just wouldn't be a good practice to try for both faces seating at the same time........"IMO"
I guess over time, one could accumulate a little dust, dirt or chalk or whatever down inside and cause problems with the seating faces of the shaft collar.

<~~~probably other reasons I've missed also...........

edit: because I was typing the same time as JER.........definately what he said also..........................
 
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In injection mould making, there are often situations where something has to shut out on the heights and the sides. Depending on the material being moulded, some have to be a slight interference fit. The side typically shutout with a 10 deg taper. So as soon as it seperates there is clearance.It is not easy to make all three shutout. As far a any advantage to to the hit , if done perfectly will just give a greater wear / hammer area.No matter how much area is exposed, compression will always occur. Are you going to pay a premium just to have a perfect joint that will be ruined when you get some dirt in . I don't think so.

Neil
 
thanks

Thanks for all the info. I never measured the depth of the insert so all the information here is pretty interesting.
 
Joint Protectors

BarenbruggeCues said:
I guess over time, one could accumulate a little dust, dirt or chalk or whatever down inside and cause problems with the seating faces of the shaft collar.

<~~~probably other reasons I've missed also...........

edit: because I was typing the same time as JER.........definately what he said also..........................
Click to expand...

That's why there's Cue Caps. To protect dust and stuff gathering in and on the faces, especially the face where you need 100% contact. And, (at the same time,) protects the screw and edges of the joint collar from nicking and flairing up. Heard it keeps moisture out too, but?....
 
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SSach said:
Why is that a no? BTW I am not a cuemaker nor do I intend on becoming one in the near future. I just admire great work and attention to detail that many of you take the time to do.
Click to expand...

Wait, wait, don't tell me.....

I'm not rhn - but I do know the answer.

The shoulder of the joint is the load bearing surface when
you tightenthe shaft<shoulder> down onto it. The LAST thing
you would want is to have the 'nub' bottoming out and
being a second, therefore competing, load bearing surface.

Think about the head bolts in an engine block...

The idea that a nub-that-rubs somehow mysteriously gives a better hit,
is pure fantasy - Rambow started it as a way to aid in the alignment
of the shaft to the butt. Recall, he used a sort of modified lathe
headstock only setup, and built cues using tools very similar
to wood lathe hand turning tools.

IMHO - his method was a transition from the earlier days when the
pin was in the shaft. They had an unthreaded section which fit
snugly into the bore of the butt section, again, only for alignment.

It may be worth noting that neither Gus Szam, nor Balabushka
made shafts that rubbed the side of the joint collar.
They were using metal lathes with much higer precision.

Dale
 
pdcue said:
Wait, wait, don't tell me.....


It may be worth noting that neither Gus Szam, nor Balabushka
made shafts that rubbed the side of the joint collar.
They were using metal lathes with much higer precision.

Dale
Click to expand...

what the ?????????????????????????
 
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