Shaft-Off

lenoxmjs

lenoxmjs

Brazilian Rosewood Fan
Silver Member
I would like someone to organize a Build off with shafts only.

A cue butt would be provided, every builder Participating would build a shaft for this butt. Only rule would be that it must be 13mm.

I would like to do this so that I could get a feel of different makers tapers without buying a dozen different cues.


Thoughts? I would probably willing to be the organizer if there is enough interest.

Some cuemakers I would like to see participate are

Dave Barrenbrugge
Eric Crisp
Tony Zinzola
Rat Cues
Andy Gilbert
Travis Nicklich
Dickie
Paul Dayton
Kikel

I have tried most of these makers but not all and would welcome anyone else.

The Butt I was considering using was a Darrin Hill. Excellent solid construction . Thoughts?
 
A good shaft will always feel good for the most part....but when a whole cue is made to work together to attain its hit, that shaft wont play as good on something else in my opinion.


Kind of like just buying a predator that fits your pin size.....it'll play fine but if it was a blank that the CM turned and custom fit to your cue it will play as its supposed to.

call me koo koo but thats my feelings on that.


tho a shaft buildoff is a neat idea
 
I don't know how that can work.
I know a lot of makers like to match the top 3 to 6 inches of the shaft's taper to their forearm's taper.
If you have a parabolic taper on the shaft and the butt doesn't much, I don't know how they'd match hit wise.
Even if the specs were given, the shaft that has the tightest grain and pingiest tone, wins it IMHO.
I don't know if any of them would use one of their jewel shafts for a Shaft-Off.
Jewel shafts are invaluable imo.
 
JoeyInCali said:
I don't know how that can work.
I know a lot of makers like to match the top 3 to 6 inches of the shaft's taper to their forearm's taper.
If you have a parabolic taper on the shaft and the butt doesn't much, I don't know how they'd match hit wise.
Even if the specs were given, the shaft that has the tightest grain and pingiest tone, wins it IMHO.
I don't know if any of them would use one of their jewel shafts for a Shaft-Off.
Jewel shafts are invaluable imo.
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thats one of the main thoughts as to why had the comments I had:smile:
 
This will work for those who make aftermarket shafts. If you make shafts for your cues only, it doesn't make much sense. It also doesn't make sense for someone who has a long wait list either, because no one will be able to get one if the maker wins.

Any build-off needs some prestige and reward for the winner, or it is just a waste of time. Make it worth winning and you will get a fair share of entrants. It needs to be short and sweet, not some long drawn out debacle as we have seen before. Maybe at the DCC or the SBE, where a weekend of evaluation could be used to determine the winner.
 
Hi Matt, thanks for considering my cue. I have an Idea lets say the shafts can have sugar marks on them and it won't affect the grade . I have a ton of shafts that are awesome but are to ugly to sell I'm sure we all do . as far as construction .500 black linen collar size to turn to .845 at the joint . pin size is 3/8-10 drill size is 5/16 .312 go 1.5 deep use the standard 3/8-10 tap.tips ,ferrules , shaft size that's up to the maker..
 
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The problem I see with it is getting the builders to participate in a competitive format. We are all pretty established & doing well. There's nothing to prove nor gain, and I can only speak for myself but I have no interest in competing. I'm all about the idea as an educational tool for players to educate themselves with the way certain builders' shafts feel & play. But like the first build-off that was never intended to be competitive, I can see this going the same direction. And that is a fact that will deter almost any well established builder from participating. There's simply nothing to gain that we don't already have, but if it turns into a competition like the first build-off, a builder who gets scored low could lose some potential business. So what would we have to gain? I hope this makes sense.
 
IMO I dont think a build off proves anything, shafts need time to be fairly judged, lots of time(years and 1000's of hours of use) to really judge them. I have some Gus shafts from the earily 70's that nobody alive right now could recreate, thats just one case. Wood needs time to blossom like a flower.

On technical stuff then a build-off might be something worth while. But I have seen pleanty of bad shafts from top cue makers and the other way around. Its not fair to any cue maker to be judged by a shaft or 2, and might be bad biz for any cue maker to get involved in do for this reason. I'm not trying to piss on the parade but there are other competitive things that might be better. Like who has the coolest puppy. who can make the smallest inlay? I dont know, but shafts are like wine it takes a long time to really know. I have had shafts do funny things after a few months.


A good shaft with a few years play on it and not sanded or had a pad etc used on it is priceless when you find a good one. Guys who use pads, abrasives etc will never know as they ruin any shaft over time .


A shaft fresh off the lathe dosent prove anything IMO. Play 2000 hours and then see what you have-if you can play that long with a shaft and you dont ruin it to me thats a shaft that you cant put a price on, its the one that $$$ cant buy. You gotta earn those shafts the hard way and TLC-lots of play. IMO. Nice and black, oily, and well used with the origonal taper, then you got yourself a shaft. All new shafts feel new for about the first 200 hours anyways perhaps a bit longer, I kinda time how many hours I put on a shaft, up to about 1000 then I stop counting-its a rough estimate probably a 20-30% error in time. But After about 1000 hours they seem to settle in and dont change much for me, and I'm used to them. I have just a handful of shafts with that much play, I adjust to them very fast as i'm used to them.Alot of shaft get to 200 hours and i'm done with them, they start to feel different, dont stay straight etc when they are green. The older the better too.

I have some old Gus shafts that have hit a million balls (I didnt do the work) but there is something about a well used shaft that new shafts just dont have. IMO.

I speaking about old school maple shafts, not "Sporting Good's" or "Manufactured" shafts, I havent put enough time into them to have a opinion(i keep the pie hole shut when I dont know, I dont BS or make things up when I speak or post), i did talk to one top Predator player who said his Preadator shafts "Get soft" after a year, he had some old retired ones with him and I did agree they did feel softer after a good bit of use. We were using both the old and new on the same butt and he was 100% right, he plays much much better than I do. I do notice very subtle or in this case not so subtle differences in cues, shafts, etc. I think that all the glue lines in the preadator shafts weaken over time, he pounds the balls harder than I do and I see the shaft flex-that flexing when you have multiple surfaces cant sustain the rigidity that a solid maple shaft could IMO in Butterfly cues where the glue lines arent straight then the cue gains strength and rigity-different topic(correct me if i'm wrong)

I dont think a build off proves anything
 
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I really wasn't looking to compare one makers shaft to the other on a competitive basis . I just thought that it would be a great way to get a feel for every makers favorite taper.

I was unaware of the hurdles involved in matching a shaft to the butt . I always thought as long as it screwed on it was good to go .

I appreciate all the thoughts and will hold off on doing a shaft-off.
 
lenoxmjs said:
I really wasn't looking to compare one makers shaft to the other on a competitive basis . I just thought that it would be a great way to get a feel for every makers favorite taper.
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I agree. I like the idea & would support it if it were structured properly. But for some reason, folks just seem to like making things a competition rather than understanding the "different strokes for different folks" mentality. Having a dozen different shafts to try would sure make it easier for folks to find a cue they like so they don't have to buy numerous cues.
 
qbilder said:
I agree. I like the idea & would support it if it were structured properly. But for some reason, folks just seem to like making things a competition rather than understanding the "different strokes for different folks" mentality. Having a dozen different shafts to try would sure make it easier for folks to find a cue they like so they don't have to buy numerous cues.
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Any shaft-off, build -off , is a competition, and what the OP originally proposed.


There is no way 12 different shafts fitted to one cue will tell you anything but how the shaft plays on that cue. Theoretically, Darrin would be the winner because the butt is his and he knows better than anyone else what shaft design fits his cue best.

A display with many different maker's shafts would fulfill the OP's desire to get familiar with different tapers, without any competition, or shaft-off.
 
I don't see why there is a stigma about a 13 mm tip.
I would have thought the bridge diameter would be more important than tip size.
 
hangemhigh said:
Any shaft-off, build -off , is a competition, and what the OP originally proposed.


There is no way 12 different shafts fitted to one cue will tell you anything but how the shaft plays on that cue. Theoretically, Darrin would be the winner because the butt is his and he knows better than anyone else what shaft design fits his cue best.

A display with many different maker's shafts would fulfill the OP's desire to get familiar with different tapers, without any competition, or shaft-off.[/QUOTE/]

I feel that every makers taper is a little different . I personally have found several that I like . My only interest was in the taper . This wasn't going to be a "HIT" contest.

I would agree with Joey or ERic or whoever said it first that Shafts with the highest "PING" when bounced on the floor usually play best for me.
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lenoxmjs said:
hangemhigh said:
Any shaft-off, build -off , is a competition, and what the OP originally proposed.


There is no way 12 different shafts fitted to one cue will tell you anything but how the shaft plays on that cue. Theoretically, Darrin would be the winner because the butt is his and he knows better than anyone else what shaft design fits his cue best.

A display with many different maker's shafts would fulfill the OP's desire to get familiar with different tapers, without any competition, or shaft-off.[/QUOTE/]

I feel that every makers taper is a little different . I personally have found several that I like . My only interest was in the taper . This wasn't going to be a "HIT" contest.

I would agree with Joey or ERic or whoever said it first that Shafts with the highest "PING" when bounced on the floor usually play best for me.
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That is good, because "HIT" is subjective.

Instead of a shaft-off , you would prefer a comparative display with an anonymous butt to demonstrate each shaft and it's unique taper. This would help the buyer in the decision making process. If the shaft was a loaner and would be returned after the display then I see no reason why many makers would not participate.
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Yes I think they should be tested ,''tested''. I get Dirt Rider magazine in the mail and every month and they test stuff , thats how I new what exhaust system to buy for my bike . I feel my yz 450f is the best bike in the field but sucks with the stock exhaust . they have four test riders test stuff a pro,a vet rider ect. no way would I be the winner. your just using my cue as a base line like the Yamaha 450 or the Honda vary vary close in similarity a good bike to test with. what handle bars do i buy well I go to the test and see whats out there . I like a high bar bend so thats what I buy. I build shafts for a lot of people because they love my taper. I've had people tell me they love sugar trees taper and can they use his shaft on my cue well certainly. I have one shaft I'm parshall to , so every cue i build for myself thats the shaft I use. to sum all this up we should test and explain how each one feels plays , ect..
 
I personally like Rick Howard shafts because of the quality and the taper. I say personally because some of his great playing shafts are NOT snow white.

So there is alot of folks out there that talk the talk but will pick the snow white shafts....:rolleyes:

Ken
 
lenoxmjs said:
What is that ? I have never heard that term before.
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You might like a cue that has a 13 mm tip and has a very shallow taper to no taper for the first 12 to 15 inches.The area where your bridge is, whether open or closed, could be a diameter of 13 to 13.4 mm diameter depending on taper.
A cue could have a 12 mm tip but a conical taper, so the bridge point is still around the 13 to 13.4 diameter.
There are quite a few snooker cues that are about 13mm where the bridge is, but they taper the shaft to 9.5 mm to the tip over about the last 3 to 4 inches.
 
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