Shaft roll

G

gtaylor

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I am looking for a difinitive answer on "shaft roll" I have seen some shafts over 20 years old not have any roll and i have seen some very expensive custom shafts develop a roll even though they have never hit a ball.

Personally i am of the mind set that wood is wood and eventually it will get a small roll too it and it doesn't hurt playability. But with everyone out there stating that their cues that are for sale have NO ROLL but have yet been played with i find this unbelievably hard to comprehend.

Wood after all flexes the minute it makes contact with a cue ball and couple that with just room temperature moisture if you put it on a table and roll it, it could technically have a roll with just a test hit.


any thoughts from the geniuses in this board?


Greg
 
gtaylor said:
I am looking for a difinitive answer on "shaft roll" I have seen some shafts over 20 years old not have any roll and i have seen some very expensive custom shafts develop a roll even though they have never hit a ball.

Personally i am of the mind set that wood is wood and eventually it will get a small roll too it and it doesn't hurt playability. But with everyone out there stating that their cues that are for sale have NO ROLL but have yet been played with i find this unbelievably hard to comprehend.

Wood after all flexes the minute it makes contact with a cue ball and couple that with just room temperature moisture if you put it on a table and roll it, it could technically have a roll with just a test hit.


any thoughts from the geniuses in this board?


Greg
Click to expand...


there are geniuses in this board ?????

It's wood. Some shafts will stay straight forever, some will warp in a week. Good practice in slowly cutting shafts down over a period of time, proper seasoning, and proper storage of the cue is the best prevention. But it is not always successful.

My first cue I turned the shaft down in a few hours, it's still straight as an arrow, probably got lucky. I don't do that any more.



Kim
 
Maple has a pretty good memory, meaning it returns to original shape pretty quickly & exactly after being flexed. Some maple is better than others. It all depends on the piece of wood. Memory is a major factor in how a shaft plays, and some builders factor this in when choosing shaft wood. A lot do not. Most shafts are chosen because they are clean & white with straight, tight grain. Even better if they weigh a lot. I sometimes wonder if anybody even knows about memory in wood. I know there are guys that do, but i'd bet there are a lot more who do not. Good topic.
 
Wood memory

qbilder said:
Maple has a pretty good memory, meaning it returns to original shape pretty quickly & exactly after being flexed. Some maple is better than others. It all depends on the piece of wood. Memory is a major factor in how a shaft plays, and some builders factor this in when choosing shaft wood. A lot do not. Most shafts are chosen because they are clean & white with straight, tight grain. Even better if they weigh a lot. I sometimes wonder if anybody even knows about memory in wood. I know there are guys that do, but i'd bet there are a lot more who do not. Good topic.
Click to expand...

I know what you mean. Red oak also has a good memory. Four or 5 years ago I built a cue for a local that had a red oak shaft. A year later he shows up at the shop with his shaft and says, "guess what"? I says, "you left your cue in your car and the shaft bowed and it looks like it has bowed a good 1/4 inch". "Yep," he says and how much to make me a new one? I hung his old shaft from the rafters. Several weeks later when I got around to making his new shaft I took the old one down to use as a sample. At first glance I thought I had the wrong shaft as it was now straight. I placed it in the lathe
and dog-gone-it it straightened itself right back to the original perfect straightness. Now I have a purple heart one that has a bow in it--but not from being left in a car. It just bowed. It has been hanging for about 4 weeks now and I am hoping it straightens itself out like the oak one did.
 
qbilder said:
Maple has a pretty good memory, meaning it returns to original shape pretty quickly & exactly after being flexed. Some maple is better than others. It all depends on the piece of wood. Memory is a major factor in how a shaft plays, and some builders factor this in when choosing shaft wood. A lot do not. Most shafts are chosen because they are clean & white with straight, tight grain. Even better if they weigh a lot. I sometimes wonder if anybody even knows about memory in wood. I know there are guys that do, but i'd bet there are a lot more who do not. Good topic.
Click to expand...

Interesting post! I believe you are saying that shaftwood should not be selected according to its straight/tight-grainedness, nor its density. Instead, one should assess its memory. How does one make that assessment?
 
qbilder said:
Maple has a pretty good memory, meaning it returns to original shape pretty quickly & exactly after being flexed. Some maple is better than others. It all depends on the piece of wood. Memory is a major factor in how a shaft plays, and some builders factor this in when choosing shaft wood. A lot do not. Most shafts are chosen because they are clean & white with straight, tight grain. Even better if they weigh a lot. I sometimes wonder if anybody even knows about memory in wood. I know there are guys that do, but i'd bet there are a lot more who do not. Good topic.
Click to expand...


I know this has been talked about before and most say it can't be done, but shafts can be straightened depending upon why they developed a warp in the first place. I have an old Japanese gentleman who plays in my room, he has been very helpful to me personally. He was trained as a Cabinet Maker in Japan. He strongly believes that wood has a memory, especially Maple.

One day he saw me working, I was in the process of making a new shaft for a cue. He looked at the old shaft and told me that it was not necessary to make a new shaft that he could straighten the warped shaft. I had a few under the counter that were warped so I gave them to him. He brought them back 4 days later perfectly straight, I thought this can't be right. So I hung them for a couple of months, one day about three months later I remembered the shafts and I checked them. They still were perfectly straight between centers spinning in my lathe. So I fit one to my cue and used it for about six months and after that time the shaft was still straight.

So I asked Mr. Yammora to show me how he did his magic. First he would roll them on a flat surface, and mark the high point with a pencil. Then he do what he calls a cold bend at that high point. Sometimes he would have to repeat the process a few times to get a decent result. Then we hung the shaft for about 48 hour's. Then we checked the shaft if the warp returned in that area or any other the marked area was heated over an electric burner stove, then he would bent it again at the high point and then it was hung for about 24 hour's.

While this method doesn't work for all shafts those that were abused by leaning against a wall for extended periods of or even those that were not stored properly in most cases can be straighten. Now this method will not work on wood that was turned incorrectly (To Fast), or shaft wood with bad grain that should not have been used in the first place, however, in most cases it will work if someone has the time to do it. I have been using his method for more than two years now, and I have had only two shafts out of more than fifty that warped again.

So yes Maple certainly has a memory, along with all wood. I have never tried this on anything except shafts made of maple or Purple Heart and both do respond very well.

Craig
 
Every time I toss a shaft b/c it's " warped " , I look at the grain orientation.
Wood will almost always follow it's grain.
We use the word " warp " too often.
I'm not going to argue this but, what they are often is they don't want to follow your center holes b/c the wood gods told him screw the center holes.
And just because they were nice enough to have followed those center holes, doesn't mean they'd do it forever. Even if un-played and stored.
Shafts are cones btw. Meaning they no longer have the same number of rings from end to end . Unlike dowels. A shaft staying true for so many years after use is a gift.
I've seen butts warp during dry days and become straight after weather normalizes here.
If a shaft "warps" and owner wants it repaired, I'd tell him to hang the shaft in a controlled environment for a few weeks.
 
shankster8 said:
Interesting post! I believe you are saying that shaftwood should not be selected according to its straight/tight-grainedness, nor its density. Instead, one should assess its memory. How does one make that assessment?
Click to expand...

You should choose shafts that you are comfortable using on your cues, whatever the criteria may be. I was only commenting on what I see when people talk about how they choose shafts. What I don't see mentioned hardly ever is one of things I put some of the most importance in.

Memory is the ability of material to return to original shape after being distorted. The more exact it returns, the higher the memory. The faster it returns, the faster the memory. In shafts, it can be as simple as like the OP stated, hitting a ball which causes the shaft to flex, and how long until or whether or not it snaps back to straight center line again. Or it can even be long term memory, as also stated where a warped shaft magically is straight again. The short term memory is what dictates playability. How fast & perfectly can that shaft snap back to center, or does it stay a bit bent for a few moments? There is a perfect memory range for every shaft where it will perform at it's very best. It'll be different depending on taper shape, length and diameter dimensions. Dennis Searing honed in on his range by recording data over several years, & built a testing jig to check each shaft. It has to fit a tiny window of acceptance for him or else it is rejected & never used on a cue, no matter how white & clean & tight straight grained it might be. Why? Because it's not a paramount player, no matter how pretty & perfect it looks. I do something similar but not nearly as scientifically exact as Dennis. Point is, he controls the way his cues play by knowing how to choose the woods to do what he wants. It's not just picking good looking stuff & hoping it plays well. He leaves nothing to chance or human error.

There's much more to building cues than a lot of folks realize. Granted, anybody can buy the popular woods & good machines and punch out cues that will be ok. But somebody did the leg work to discover, use, and popularize those woods. You can buy them & know they're good for cues, but how many people really know why? So memory isn't something you absolutely have to know about. It's just one of those things that give you insight to the "why" with your woods, especially shafts. Why is this shaft junk but this one plays great? That's all. If you want true consistency & want to learn why cues do what they do so that you can learn to build the best cue you can, memory is something to look into & learn about.
 
manwon said:
[/B]

I know this has been talked about before and most say it can't be done, but shafts can be straightened depending upon why they developed a warp in the first place. I have an old Japanese gentleman who plays in my room, he has been very helpful to me personally. He was trained as a Cabinet Maker in Japan. He strongly believes that wood has a memory, especially Maple.

One day he saw me working, I was in the process of making a new shaft for a cue. He looked at the old shaft and told me that it was not necessary to make a new shaft that he could straighten the warped shaft. I had a few under the counter that were warped so I gave them to him. He brought them back 4 days later perfectly straight, I thought this can't be right. So I hung them for a couple of months, one day about three months later I remembered the shafts and I checked them. They still were perfectly straight between centers spinning in my lathe. So I fit one to my cue and used it for about six months and after that time the shaft was still straight.

So I asked Mr. Yammora to show me how he did his magic. First he would roll them on a flat surface, and mark the high point with a pencil. Then he do what he calls a cold bend at that high point. Sometimes he would have to repeat the process a few times to get a decent result. Then we hung the shaft for about 48 hour's. Then we checked the shaft if the warp returned in that area or any other the marked area was heated over an electric burner stove, then he would bent it again at the high point and then it was hung for about 24 hour's.

While this method doesn't work for all shafts those that were abused by leaning against a wall for extended periods of or even those that were not stored properly in most cases can be straighten. Now this method will not work on wood that was turned incorrectly (To Fast), or shaft wood with bad grain that should not have been used in the first place, however, in most cases it will work if someone has the time to do it. I have been using his method for more than two years now, and I have had only two shafts out of more than fifty that warped again.

So yes Maple certainly has a memory, along with all wood. I have never tried this on anything except shafts made of maple or Purple Heart and both do respond very well.

Craig
Click to expand...

2012 World 8-Ball champion, Chang Jung Ling did the same thing too. He did his shaft over a steam boiler. :D
 
L.C.Hui said:
He told me he did that to remove minor dents on the shaft too lol.
Click to expand...

Steam is the best way to remove dents. Ironically, steam is also how lumber is stress relieved after drying in a kiln. It is super heated with steam for a short period AFTER the kiln cycle. The freshly dry wood soaks up the steam as moisture, and the heat relaxes it to a virtual almost rubber/plastic state. It is then let rest to slowly cool down & slowly lose the water moisture. Losing water happens much faster than sap. In all it take about 2 days to stress relieve the wood. But it's tremendously more stable after doing so. There's more to it but this is the nuts & bolts of it. So it's no surprise to me a guy uses a steamer & heat to straighten warped shafts. It's totally possible and plausible.
 
qbilder said:
Steam is the best way to remove dents. Ironically, steam is also how lumber is stress relieved after drying in a kiln. It is super heated with steam for a short period AFTER the kiln cycle. The freshly dry wood soaks up the steam as moisture, and the heat relaxes it to a virtual almost rubber/plastic state. It is then let rest to slowly cool down & slowly lose the water moisture. Losing water happens much faster than sap. In all it take about 2 days to stress relieve the wood. But it's tremendously more stable after doing so. There's more to it but this is the nuts & bolts of it. So it's no surprise to me a guy uses a steamer & heat to straighten warped shafts. It's totally possible and plausible.
Click to expand...

I've learned something reading this thread. I've always thought that a warped shaft was basically a piece of "fire wood" and was no longer useful to play pool with.

Another thought about warped shafts is when you see a cue listed for sale and the seller happens to mention "Oh, the shafts or shaft have a slight roll!". Isn't that a way to soften the fact that the shaft or shafts are warped?

James
 
SCCues said:
I've learned something reading this thread. I've always thought that a warped shaft was basically a piece of "fire wood" and was no longer useful to play pool with.

Another thought about warped shafts is when you see a cue listed for sale and the seller happens to mention "Oh, the shafts or shaft have a slight roll!". Isn't that a way to soften the fact that the shaft or shafts are warped?
James
Click to expand...


James that is exactly what the seller is saying. Another favorite saying is this is the best hitting cue I have played with man it hits a ton, and oh by the way the shafts have slight TAPER ROLL.

When it comes to wood it is either straight or warped there is no middle ground. Like I said above depending upon the reason that a shaft warps it can restored to straight buy heating and bending, applying a little moisture to the high point of the bend with steam will also help. It all comes down to memory, I think by bending, heating, and applying steam
it relieves the stress that caused the warp in the first place and then it allows the natural memory of the wood to take over.
 
dents

taking dents out of a shaft i have always used a wet band aid.

normally when i retip a shaft i clean it and reseal it with wax.

somtimes the friction creates heat from appling wax and it seem like a cue with a slight roll that it not as warp as much when i finish.
what i said i havent tried to do a runout and cannot prove this it just seem to be less wobble.
MMike
 
I am the creator of the Big Lebowski warped shaft taker outter.

Actually I just copied the design. I use the jig with surgical tubing and give the shaft a fairly good working over with a steam gun.

There is absolutely nothing scientific about what or how I do it as far as measuring goes so it is mostly a hit and miss thing.

I have had some success with it. Its just something that can be built with some scrap wood a few screws and a poplar dowel plus the tubing.

Mostly just to play about with.

I did a shaft a month ago for a local player who was going to trash one of his shafts and buy another. It had a fair roll to it. The tip did lift off the table when screwed to the butt. I did face both joints for him also to be sure.

I asked him to let me try and take the roll out for him. I had a good result with that one and he hasn't mentioned anything to me since so it must still be hanging in there, for the time being anyway.

I charged him a beer for the job as I told him that I wouldn't take money for something that I couldn't basically guarantee.

He was happy and the beer tasted good.

Terry, who is oft times happy to work for beer.
 
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manwon said:
James that is exactly what the seller is saying. Another favorite saying is this is the best hitting cue I have played with man it hits a ton, and oh by the way the shafts have slight TAPER ROLL.

When it comes to wood it is either straight or warped there is no middle ground.
Click to expand...

Though often the case, it's not 100% true. Aggressive sanding or slightly mis-machining can make a shaft roll funny even if it is dead nuts straight across the center line. It is essentially making an area, usually around the joint, cam shaped instead of true round. Thus, it wobbles when rolled. Another situation that can occur is the wood move to a cam or egg shape, out of true round, instead of warping or bowing. It shrinks or swells across the grain rather than longitudinal, and therefore will wobble when rolled even if it's straight across center. At some point a builder tried explaining this to a player, and the player dubbed it "taper roll".

So most often the shaft is slightly warped, especially if it rolled true when new but doesn't anymore. The term "taper roll" became a description of slight warp.
 
. Like I said above depending upon the reason that a shaft warps it can restored to straight buy heating and bending, applying a little moisture to the high point of the bend with steam will also help. It all comes down to memory, I think by bending, heating, and applying steam
it relieves the stress that caused the warp in the first place and then it allows the natural memory of the wood to take over.
Click to expand...
I really don't know how that relieves the " stress " that caused the warp.
I don't even think stress caused that warp. Unless if the owner did Mike Sigel style break with it.
I have yet to see a shaft warp AGAINST it's grain direction.
I'd be nagging if I expound on that.
 
qbilder said:
Though often the case, it's not 100% true. Aggressive sanding or slightly mis-machining can make a shaft roll funny even if it is dead nuts straight across the center line. It is essentially making an area, usually around the joint, cam shaped instead of true round. Thus, it wobbles when rolled. Another situation that can occur is the wood move to a cam or egg shape, out of true round, instead of warping or bowing. It shrinks or swells across the grain rather than longitudinal, and therefore will wobble when rolled even if it's straight across center. At some point a builder tried explaining this to a player, and the player dubbed it "taper roll".

So most often the shaft is slightly warped, especially if it rolled true when new but doesn't anymore. The term "taper roll" became a description of slight warp.
Click to expand...



Thank you for the additional information.
 
JoeyInCali said:
I really don't know how that relieves the " stress " that caused the warp.
I don't even think stress caused that warp. Unless if the owner did Mike Sigel style break with it.
I have yet to see a shaft warp AGAINST it's grain direction.
I'd be nagging if I expound on that.
Click to expand...

It is the principle that applies to Kiln Dried woods. By simply leaning a cue against a wall will cause the front section to warp over time. The stress is nothing more than the weight of the cue. Now add to this cue leaning against the wall a heat source, such as directly over a vent or in direct sun light and the warp will occur much faster at the shafts weakest point or at multiple points. In many cases when I have tried to strengthen a shaft I find that is a bend in in multiple places. This is normally caused when the wood selected has multiple off grain areas. As far a shaft warping against the grain I have no clue how you could tell if that happened or not I have never seen a shaft warp before my eye's.
 
manwon said:
It is the principle that applies to Kiln Dried woods. By simply leaning a cue against a wall will cause the front section to warp over time. The stress is nothing more than the weight of the cue. Now add to this cue leaning against the wall a heat source, such as directly over a vent or in direct sun light and the warp will occur much faster at the shafts weakest point or at multiple points. In many cases when I have tried to strengthen a shaft I find that is a bend in in multiple places. This is normally caused when the wood selected has multiple off grain areas. As far a shaft warping against the grain I have no clue how you could tell if that happened or not I have never seen a shaft warp before my eye's.
Click to expand...
Thanks.
Telling if the shaft warp against it's grain would be easy.
Indicate the warped area, check the high point.

I guess we are with semantics here.
A cue warping b/c of getting leaned too long is not a warp to me.
It's bent.
A shaft warping even though it was used and stored normally is a warp to me.
 
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