Shaft Tapers

[Ken_4fun]

Cuemakers -

How did you come up with your tapers for your shafts?

I really like how Rick Howard cues play, and I think it has alot to do with his shaft tapers.

So questions;


1.) Are Kersenbrock shaft tapers the same as Southwest?

2.) Are Josswest tapers different from Joss tapers (Tim Scruggs too?)

3.) Are Tascarella shafts the old Balabushka taper?

4) Are Barry Szamboti shafts the same as Gus?

etc.

5.) Do cue makers change tapers over time? (ie evolve?). I wonder about cuemakers that have been making cues for a long time. Examples would be Tad, and Gina. Have they always been the same?

Thanks,

Ken

 

[HawaiianEye]

Cuemakers -

How did you come up with your tapers for your shafts?

I really like how Rick Howard cues play, and I think it has alot to do with his shaft tapers.

So questions;


1.) Are Kersenbrock shaft tapers the same as Southwest?

2.) Are Josswest tapers different from Joss tapers (Tim Scruggs too?)

3.) Are Tascarella shafts the old Balabushka taper?

4) Are Barry Szamboti shafts the same as Gus?

etc.

5.) Do cue makers change tapers over time? (ie evolve?). I wonder about cuemakers that have been making cues for a long time. Examples would be Tad, and Gina. Have they always been the same?

Thanks,

Ken

Ref: #3

I talked to Pete a couple months back and he asked me what taper I wanted: He mentioned a very short taper (Balabushka style) or a longer pro taper.

 

[JoeyInCali]

5.) Do cue makers change tapers over time?

I would think most do, due to experimentation and wood supply ( maybe ).

Those who like long "pro-taper" AND stiff hit are going to have a hell of a time finding stiff maple these days.
Probably not the case during Bushka's days.

 

[KJ Cues]

Fasten Your Seatbelts

Shaft tapers have evolved. If that weren't the case, we'd all still be playing with 14mm shafts.
So what led to the evolution ? People's desires mostly, that and their fat little fingers.
Ask anyone who's done a lot of turn-downs (T/Ds). Guaranteed they've heard a client say that
they can't get their short, stubby fingers around a 13mm shaft when they use a closed-bridge.
My usual response to that is, either go to an open-bridge or go on a diet. Here, the truth hurts.
This attitude, being truthful, has led to my not having a lot of local clients. A true blessing.
We're talking about players that will squeal like a stuck pig if you charge more than $10 for a tip.
Suffice it to say that not many around here play Moori or Kamui. Not from me anyway.

Back to shaft tapers. Most players have no idea as to what they're asking for.
Their buddy plays with a 12mm and he's an APA 6/7. He also plays with a different piece of wood.
I'm not at all against a Pro-taper. That's one of the pluses of the evolution. Let me clarify.
I'm not talking about no taper for 16" from the ferrule back. To me, that's a sure way to ruin
what would otherwise be a great playing shaft. Let's move that flex-point as far back as possible,
so we've got even more wood out in front of it that's now suppose to move at the speed of light.
The orig. Predator Z-shaft got it right. The flex-point was within the first 5" from the ferrule.
As I said in another thread : "Engineering trumps table ability all day long".

So what does constitute a good taper ? Well, SouthWest immediately comes to mind. Thanx DPK.
SW has a taper that is so subtle and so refined that you barely sense it's a taper. Beautiful !!!
Stroke-zone matters. SW's taper is such that the stroke-zone is almost the entire length of the shaft.
There is no parallel anywhere on the shaft. It's a continual taper. SW players know what I'm talking about.
While we're talking SW, let's consider that the SW cues that draw the most attention in the F/S section
are those that are advertised to have 'full diameter shafts' or 13mm and above. Time to think about it.

 

[PRED]

Used to be Cuemakers were limited to a taper bar on the lathe. CNC allowed for infinite tapers.

 

[tsp&b]

Well Said

Shaft tapers have evolved. If that weren't the case, we'd all still be playing with 14mm shafts.
So what led to the evolution ? People's desires mostly, that and their fat little fingers.
Ask anyone who's done a lot of turn-downs (T/Ds). Guaranteed they've heard a client say that
they can't get their short, stubby fingers around a 13mm shaft when they use a closed-bridge.
My usual response to that is, either go to an open-bridge or go on a diet. Here, the truth hurts.
This attitude, being truthful, has led to my not having a lot of local clients. A true blessing.
We're talking about players that will squeal like a stuck pig if you charge more than $10 for a tip.
Suffice it to say that not many around here play Moori or Kamui. Not from me anyway.

Back to shaft tapers. Most players have no idea as to what they're asking for.
Their buddy plays with a 12mm and he's an APA 6/7. He also plays with a different piece of wood.
I'm not at all against a Pro-taper. That's one of the pluses of the evolution. Let me clarify.
I'm not talking about no taper for 16" from the ferrule back. To me, that's a sure way to ruin
what would otherwise be a great playing shaft. Let's move that flex-point as far back as possible,
so we've got even more wood out in front of it that's now suppose to move at the speed of light.
The orig. Predator Z-shaft got it right. The flex-point was within the first 5" from the ferrule.
As I said in another thread : "Engineering trumps table ability all day long".

So what does constitute a good taper ? Well, SouthWest immediately comes to mind. Thanx DPK.
SW has a taper that is so subtle and so refined that you barely sense it's a taper. Beautiful !!!
Stroke-zone matters. SW's taper is such that the stroke-zone is almost the entire length of the shaft.
There is no parallel anywhere on the shaft. It's a continual taper. SW players know what I'm talking about.
While we're talking SW, let's consider that the SW cues that draw the most attention in the F/S section
are those that are advertised to have 'full diameter shafts' or 13mm and above. Time to think about it.

Very well said!!!

 

[AtLarge]

... So what does constitute a good taper ? Well, SouthWest immediately comes to mind. Thanx DPK.
SW has a taper that is so subtle and so refined that you barely sense it's a taper. Beautiful !!!
Stroke-zone matters. SW's taper is such that the stroke-zone is almost the entire length of the shaft.
There is no parallel anywhere on the shaft. It's a continual taper. SW players know what I'm talking about. ...

In an interview a few years ago, Al Lawrence of South West Cues said they offer three tapers varying in stiffness -- their standard taper (stiffest), a pro taper (middle), and a long pro taper. Your comments relate to their standard taper?

 

[KJ Cues]

That would be correct in that I'm not overly familiar with SW's other tapers.
Notice that it was DPK that I credited. I still have a few of his shaft blanks.

 

[Bank it]

In an interview a few years ago, Al Lawrence of South West Cues said they offer three tapers varying in stiffness -- their standard taper (stiffest), a pro taper (middle), and a long pro taper. Your comments relate to their standard taper?

What kind of taper gives that roll to the butts of their cues?

 

[JoeyInCali]

That would be correct in that I'm not overly familiar with SW's other tapers.
Notice that it was DPK that I credited. I still have a few of his shaft blanks.

I bet it makes you cringe when someone sends you a SW shaft that's been sanded straight.
As pretty and functional is that curved taper, I still like 5 linear angles in shafts. Different areas do different things imo. :thumbup:

 

[pdcue]

I would think most do, due to experimentation and wood supply ( maybe ).

Those who like long "pro-taper" AND stiff hit are going to have a hell of a time finding stiff maple these days.
Probably not the case during Bushka's days.

IMHO - there is still plenty of stiff maple available. It just isn't the white-as-drifted- snow,
no-visible-speck-of-variation that cue buyers are obsessing over these days.

Dale

 

[JoeyInCali]

IMHO - there is still plenty of stiff maple available. It just isn't the white-as-drifted- snow,
no-visible-speck-of-variation that cue buyers are obsessing over these days.

Dale

You're gonna get PM's from makers asking your source.

 

[HawaiianEye]

Shaft tapers have evolved. If that weren't the case, we'd all still be playing with 14mm shafts.

Nothing wrong with 14mm shafts. I just had Scot Sherbine make me one a couple months ago.

I picked up playing with a 14mm shaft from Jack Taylor...Alfie's brother.

 

[JC]

I got out my calipers and measured the taper of my long time favorite playing cue 1/4 inch at a time and copied it on word pad. So now the JC taper is exactly the same as another renowned cue maker's. At least how he made the one I own. Any taper I could come up with "on my own" has no doubt already been done by someone so why not just cut to the chase and go with what I know I like? And that others like too.

JC

 

[qbilder]

IMHO - there is still plenty of stiff maple available. It just isn't the white-as-drifted- snow,
no-visible-speck-of-variation that cue buyers are obsessing over these days.

Dale

I don't always agree with you, but in this case you're spot on.

The problem isn't that the good maple doesn't exist, but rather that there aren't many shaft wood dealers & they all get wood from the same source. Said source aims for "white-as-drifted-snow", so that's what's available.

I sent a couple cues out a lil while back that had real nice shafts. One had shafts that were full of sugar lines, the thin red/brown hairline things. Super shafts but the guy complained, wondering why I didn't use high end shaft wood. I didn't even bother explaining. I'm tired of explaining. Sometimes I wonder if people even play with the cues they buy, or if they only look at them.

 

[HawaiianEye]

I don't always agree with you, but in this case you're spot on.

The problem isn't that the good maple doesn't exist, but rather that there aren't many shaft wood dealers & they all get wood from the same source. Said source aims for "white-as-drifted-snow", so that's what's available.

I sent a couple cues out a lil while back that had real nice shafts. One had shafts that were full of sugar lines, the thin red/brown hairline things. Super shafts but the guy complained, wondering why I didn't use high end shaft wood. I didn't even bother explaining. I'm tired of explaining. Sometimes I wonder if people even play with the cues they buy, or if they only look at them.

Do you have any shaft blanks in the works? Or do you only make shafts for your cues?

I've always wanted to play with one of your shafts or cues, but I have never seen one of your cues here in Hawaii.

 

[qbilder]

I got out my calipers and measured the taper of my long time favorite playing cue 1/4 inch at a time and copied it on word pad. So now the JC taper is exactly the same as another renowned cue maker's. At least how he made the one I own. Any taper I could come up with "on my own" has no doubt already been done by someone so why not just cut to the chase and go with what I know I like? And that others like too.

JC

Something I did early on was began tracing shafts with a sharpie on thin plywood, then cutting along the line to make a taper bar. This way I could have several tapers to tinker with, and offer to prospective buyers. Eventually I formulated my own taper & had an aluminum bar made of it. I have used it ever since & quit offering anything but it. It's comprised of two conical tapers, hence the "compound taper". Several years ago I attempted to merge them with a slope between, but it resulted in the shaft becoming too stiff & altered the flex point, which threw everything out of whack. The two distinct tapers have to meet where they do, they way they do, or else the shaft doesn't play the way I want it to. It used to bother me because it didn't seem as refined and elegant as the curved progressive tapers like others had. Then I bought a Blue Grass cue & was very surprised to see that Richard's taper was eerily similar to mine. Had he not been doing it years before me, I'd have thought he copied mine. Same with Black Boar. All three of our cues play different, are known for different things, but all widely recognized to be a good playing cue. All three have strikingly similar shaft taper shapes.

Richard & I spoke about it once over dinner. I explained how I spent so many labor hours & so many shafts tinkering & experimenting, for years before finally finding the "AH HA!" taper. He giggled & mumbled something about how he really liked the way old McDermott cues played, so he started with one & went from it. Of course he developed it into what he uses, but he had an easier (more clever) start line. I don't know how Tony came up with his, but I think he's been doing it even longer than Richard. Regardless, it amazed me that we all three developed a nearly identical taper, under completely different circumstances and zero influence on one another.

Anyway, I found a taper I like & it's pretty much set in stone. I have tried evolving it, but always revert back to the original. It works. No reason to change it.

 

[qbilder]

Do you have any shaft blanks in the works? Or do you only make shafts for your cues?

I've always wanted to play with one of your shafts or cues, but I have never seen one of your cues here in Hawaii.

I generally only make shafts for my own cues, but I can send you one to try. I have a dozen or more that have no mates/twins. My shafts are mated in order according to tone, weight, aesthetics. I match them into pairs & use a rubber band to keep them stored together. The shafts that don't have a match go into a "singles" bucket where they mingle until a suitable mate comes along You are welcome to one of those. They range from 3.4-4.5oz.

 

[HawaiianEye]

I generally only make shafts for my own cues, but I can send you one to try. I have a dozen or more that have no mates/twins. My shafts are mated in order according to tone, weight, aesthetics. I match them into pairs & use a rubber band to keep them stored together. The shafts that don't have a match go into a "singles" bucket where they mingle until a suitable mate comes along You are welcome to one of those. They range from 3.4-4.5oz.

Do you do make shafts for all types of joints and pins? Most of my cues are SS 5/16-14 and have piloted compression shafts. I have a couple of cues that are 3/8-10 flat faced. I think every cue of yours I've seen on here has a 3/8-10, or similar, pin and is flat faced. Do you think your shafts play the same on cues with different joint styles? I know that is a hard question to answer, but as much as you've played I figure you may have experimented some.

I'm interested in "playability" only and am interested in trying out shafts with different tapers. Little imperfections in color do not bother me as much as playability does.

I also like shafts that are thicker than the normal player uses..above 13mm. What are your ideas on that? I just recently had Scot Sherbine make me a 14mm for one of my old cues and it plays well, but it will only fit on that one cue due to the pin.

The reason I'm asking is I need to figure out which cue I want to try a new shaft on.

 

[Kim Bye]

Something I did early on was began tracing shafts with a sharpie on thin plywood, then cutting along the line to make a taper bar. This way I could have several tapers to tinker with, and offer to prospective buyers. Eventually I formulated my own taper & had an aluminum bar made of it. I have used it ever since & quit offering anything but it. It's comprised of two conical tapers, hence the "compound taper". Several years ago I attempted to merge them with a slope between, but it resulted in the shaft becoming too stiff & altered the flex point, which threw everything out of whack. The two distinct tapers have to meet where they do, they way they do, or else the shaft doesn't play the way I want it to. It used to bother me because it didn't seem as refined and elegant as the curved progressive tapers like others had. Then I bought a Blue Grass cue & was very surprised to see that Richard's taper was eerily similar to mine. Had he not been doing it years before me, I'd have thought he copied mine. Same with Black Boar. All three of our cues play different, are known for different things, but all widely recognized to be a good playing cue. All three have strikingly similar shaft taper shapes.

Richard & I spoke about it once over dinner. I explained how I spent so many labor hours & so many shafts tinkering & experimenting, for years before finally finding the "AH HA!" taper. He giggled & mumbled something about how he really liked the way old McDermott cues played, so he started with one & went from it. Of course he developed it into what he uses, but he had an easier (more clever) start line. I don't know how Tony came up with his, but I think he's been doing it even longer than Richard. Regardless, it amazed me that we all three developed a nearly identical taper, under completely different circumstances and zero influence on one another.

Anyway, I found a taper I like & it's pretty much set in stone. I have tried evolving it, but always revert back to the original. It works. No reason to change it.

That's an interesting story and I think that is how a shaft taper evolves for most cue makers.
I trace shaft outlines too, in order to see how they differ each other, wich gives me an idea why I like or dislike a shaft. I hope to subtract my own taper from that knowledge.