Shaft weight

[classiccues]

So how important is it? I know there has been issues with "light" shafts, but what do you think is the right weight? I ask because I see shafts that are for big pin joints, 3/8-11 and so forth they rarely tip the scales at 3.7, in fact I find a lot don't make 3.5. This is true with SW, a cue in the FS section by James White. Both cuemakers are known for their quality shafts. I know traditional shafts are almost always at 4.0 or better. But then have brass insert and in many cases steel trim rings. So are people getting "shafted" in thinking 4 oz is the right number? Remove the insert and steel trim rings, what do you have? 3.7-3.9. So what is more important, weight or nice grain and increased growth rings?

JV

 

[Varney Cues]

Not to play forum police but this is the review section for cuemakers. You'll probably get more of a reponse if you move this question to "ask the cuemaker" section.

 

[cubswin]

actually KV I think part of this forum was cue discussion, at least the intent that classiccues among others has been asking for forever.

from the description of the forum "Reviews from owners and questions from shoppers."

not to play forum police.....

 

[cubswin]

personally I don't care what the shaft weighs as long as it hits good.

I've had shafts that were 4.5 oz and hit like crap, while a lighter shaft on the same cue hit great.

 

[Worminator]

Not to play forum police but this is the review section for cuemakers. You'll probably get more of a reponse if you move this question to "ask the cuemaker" section.

I believe the title says "Cue Reviews"...not cuemaker reviews...and since the shaft is part of the cue, I believe the question is appropriate for this section.

I have actually given this subject quite a bit of thought and experimentation. I have really started to pay attention to the weight of a shaft and how it relates to the playability. I have not really found a correlation between how heavy a shaft is to how it plays. I have found many 3.4oz-3.7oz shafts that play just as well, if not better, than some 4.0+oz shafts. The opposite is also true.

So...I'm not convinced that a heavy shaft necessarily = quality shaft wood. I also believe there is a better chance than a heavier shaft will play better, but not 100% of the time. I think there should be more consideration to how the weight of the shaft balances out the cue.

Just my $.02...

 

[cutter]

Well here's another aspect to consider. Taper and joint diameter.
I have a few different tapers that I have used, and each one ends up with a different weight. A .828 joint shaft will weigh less than a .850 joint shaft, and a long taper shaft will usually weigh less than a short taper shaft. Assuming that you start with similar blanks. So to put a "magic oz number" on it IMHO is useless. Now comparing matching shafts will give you a feel for the density of the wood. IMO that's were the rubber mets the road. As a side note, I have seen low ring count shafts that were denser than high ring count shafts, but that could be a whole new thread.

 

[classiccues]

Not to play forum police but this is the review section for cuemakers. You'll probably get more of a reponse if you move this question to "ask the cuemaker" section.

If I wanted a cuemakers opinion, that is where I would have posted it. But feel free to lend any "expertise" you might feel you can contribute.

One other note, this forum is going to become an a$$kissing fest. Unless of course pharoah gets to a review. The object for another forum was to get the static out of the for sale section.

JV

 

[classiccues]

Most joint diameters I have see are in the .840 +/- diameter. Like I mentioned, you hear the 4.0 oz number thrown around. So for someone shopping for a cue, what would you recommend? I personally have experienced what Jamie has mentioned. Some lighter shafts play really good, some heavier shafts, not so. Not that I like throwing the "P" word around but their shaft tend to be very light.
Sometimes I think the 4.0 oz indicator might be a result of some smoke and mirrors with inserts and trim rings.
As Steve has mentioned, adjusting the taper, joint diameter will also produce an artificially heavy shaft. So what's the real deal?

JV

 

[cubswin]

Most joint diameters I have see are in the .840 +/- diameter. Like I mentioned, you hear the 4.0 oz number thrown around. So for someone shopping for a cue, what would you recommend? I personally have experienced what Jamie has mentioned. Some lighter shafts play really good, some heavier shafts, not so. Not that I like throwing the "P" word around but their shaft tend to be very light.
Sometimes I think the 4.0 oz indicator might be a result of some smoke and mirrors with inserts and trim rings.
As Steve has mentioned, adjusting the taper, joint diameter will also produce an artificially heavy shaft. So what's the real deal?

JV

what gets me is shafts with brass inserts, and double silver rings that people say are 4+oz shafts. I'm sure they are.

I kinda wonder if the heavier shafts aren't favored by people because they like a weight forward cue, and think that can only happen with a heavier shaft.

 

[rhncue]

Well here's another aspect to consider. Taper and joint diameter.
I have a few different tapers that I have used, and each one ends up with a different weight. A .828 joint shaft will weigh less than a .850 joint shaft, and a long taper shaft will usually weigh less than a short taper shaft. Assuming that you start with similar blanks. So to put a "magic oz number" on it IMHO is useless. Now comparing matching shafts will give you a feel for the density of the wood. IMO that's were the rubber mets the road. As a side note, I have seen low ring count shafts that were denser than high ring count shafts, but that could be a whole new thread.

I agree with everything you state exactly and I've been trying to convey that message for years but to no avail. People who often have no clue on what is actually a good playing cue or component hear something on the Internet or in a pool room and take it as gospel. Everyone wants the best of everything so if they here of something better they automatically want it. On another thread someone is asking about who could build them a shaft out of laminated old growth maple. They have heard that old growth is better and that laminated is better so automatically they want the combination. The thing is that most things that cue makers say should be taken with a large grain of salt. I have found that many are much better salesman than they are cue builders. There's an old saying, "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance then baffle them with bullsh*t". There is no way of telling old growth Maple from other Maple once the tree has been cut down. I once responded to this same question on another forum and brought up your same answers and many people scoffed at the notion. Do you really think a Taiwan Ramin wood shaft with a large brass half/joint weighing 5.5 oz or a Schmelke shaft weighing 5 oz are better shafts than a Southwest weighing 3.6 oz? Shaft taper, insert or lack of, deco-rings and some maples will weigh slightly more or less than others determine the shafts final weight. I turn my shafts down incrementally to 13.5 and then they hang waiting to be completed to be made into a shaft. If someone wants a heavier shaft or two shafts then at this stage is where I weigh them as they are all identical other than weight but the final weight of the shaft will probably be know more than 3.8 03 3.9 even with the heavier shaft because of my taper and pin size.

Dick

 

[JoeyInCali]

Can of worms.
You can manipulate shafts' weight but not their tonal characteristics.
Since I keep my collar at more than .840 and have a slight conical taper, getting to 3.7 oz with no insert isn't a huge problem.

 

[jazznpool]

Lots of misinformation and controversy about shafts!

Hey Jamie, Well said. We are of a similar mind on this issue. It is very important IMO that the cue have a pair of shafts that contributes to the overall balance and weight the maker was trying to achieve. I'll add:

1. I don't like it when a shaft pair are more than .1 of an ounce apart. In fact, I prefer that they be within .05oz. or less.

2. No more than a few sugar streaks, grain wiggle, or other blem should be in the back 3rd of the shaft if at all. I expect higher dollar custom cues to have very clear shafts that are predominantly straight-grained.

3. The best potential shafts will always have relatively high tap tone. If you get a cue with 2 shafts you're quite fortunate if one of them is not thuddy sounding. The vast majority of cuemakers cannot afford to use tone as a grading factor or they simply don't believe it matters.

4. The number of growth rings on a shaft is a selling point only. There is no direct relationship between # of growth rings and superior performance. High rpi shafts occur less frequently, just as very low rpi shafts do. The average rpi of shaft maple is roughly 11-14. Although I do prefer at least 10 rpi I would much rather have a 8rpi shaft with superior tone to a 30rpi shaft that had thuddy tap tone on my playing cue. That is assuming all else is equal.

5. Vacuum kiln dried shaftwood tends to be slightly lighter per 100 pieces than non-vacuum kiln dried maple.

6. The ultimate piece of shaft maple can be ruined with a taper that is either too flexible or too stiff. The shaft taper is the art of the individual cuemaker.

Martin

I believe the title says "Cue Reviews"...not cuemaker reviews...and since the shaft is part of the cue, I believe the question is appropriate for this section.

I have actually given this subject quite a bit of thought and experimentation. I have really started to pay attention to the weight of a shaft and how it relates to the playability. I have not really found a correlation between how heavy a shaft is to how it plays. I have found many 3.4oz-3.7oz shafts that play just as well, if not better, than some 4.0+oz shafts. The opposite is also true.

So...I'm not convinced that a heavy shaft necessarily = quality shaft wood. I also believe there is a better chance than a heavier shaft will play better, but not 100% of the time. I think there should be more consideration to how the weight of the shaft balances out the cue.

Just my $.02...

 

[masonh]

good topic.cutter is right it is largely dependant on taper and size.my shafts are usually smaller than most at the joint .825-.835",but i still like to keep them over 3.5oz.most of mine actually weigh right at 4oz or a hair over,in fact i have trouble finding light shafts for front heavy cues.i bought all my shaftwood from Eric and Wes and it is great.it is their Diamond grade,very dense and straight grained.my taper is fairly stiff,but a little less stiff than SW original taper.i made a j/b cue the other day and used a shaft that didn't cut it as a playing shaft.i left the taper very stiff and it was .855" at the joint and 13.25mm at the tip,it weighed 4.6oz.i made a sneaky for Snowmon and the butt was slightly heavier than i wanted i looked and looked for a light shaft,but couldn't find one.it came out 4.1oz.

i don't think a shaft has to weigh a certain amount to be good,but it is a starting point.as you said yourself lots of SW shafts are 3.5oz or under and have a stiff taper,but their joint diameter is skinny.i have had 10-12 SW cues and only one had 4oz shafts,thanks Ribdoner.i think weight is a decent indicator of density.i also like to see what the maple does when you cut it.that is also an indicator of density.i like the wood to stay smooth with no loose fibers or pits.

i don't do any SS cues but i would think that the brass inserts weigh .3-.4oz which would mean a 3.5oz shaft with brass insert is light.as far as 3oz shafts go,i wouldn't want one.i am sure there are some good ones out there,but i wouldn't want to take a chance.for a standard taper and joint diamtere 3oz is probably going to be too light to be quality shaftwood for the most part.for me i like them 3.5-4.5oz with a 13mm tip and .830"ish joint.

i like to look for weight,straightness,density,ring count and tone in no particular order,but it seems ring count and weight get priority.maybe b/c they are the easiest to check.

on another note i won't use vacuum-kiln dried shaftwood.i like the air dried or kiln dried wood only.i do not want my wood cooked at 500 degrees,and i don't buy into the stress relieved theory.most of my shafts are dark with some sugar and some people might not like it,but i don't care much about getting really white wood.most of the really white stuff is vacuum-kiln dried.

 

[manwon]

So how important is it? I know there has been issues with "light" shafts, but what do you think is the right weight? I ask because I see shafts that are for big pin joints, 3/8-11 and so forth they rarely tip the scales at 3.7, in fact I find a lot don't make 3.5. This is true with SW, a cue in the FS section by James White. Both cuemakers are known for their quality shafts. I know traditional shafts are almost always at 4.0 or better. But then have brass insert and in many cases steel trim rings. So are people getting "shafted" in thinking 4 oz is the right number? Remove the insert and steel trim rings, what do you have? 3.7-3.9. So what is more important, weight or nice grain and increased growth rings?

JV

JV, I think a few gram's less than 4 oz even is not a major detractor from the over all quality of a shaft, but .5 oz or 1/2 oz may have effect. First of all when most cue makers weigh a shaft or make a statement about the weight they prefer, they are speaking of a finish turned blank no-insert / no-tip/ferrule. This was what Gus Szamboti was talking about when he was selecting shaft wood for cues. Which, keeping this in mind will make a shaft slightly heaver, when finish, insert, and tip/ferrule are added. It seems many of the old classic cue makers preferred shaft wood that was heaver, and I think their main concern was weight=density or strength.

I also think that in most cases I have seen, weight and increased growth rings go hand in hand. I have yet to see a shaft with a large number of growth rings that was light. Grain, I am uncertain if it really matters much at all, along with Sugar marks in the wood other than the fact that it is distracting to some people depending upon it's location.

The reason I say this is because I have around 200 to 300 early Brunswick one piece cues that I am using for conversions. A large number of these cues are still straight after 70 to 100 or more years. I often use the shaft when I convert the cue for my special customers, who are not bothered by grain and concerned only with hit. These shafts are in many cases very grainy, some have Birdseye and curly effect, and few have even appeared to be almost quilted. However, for the shafts from this source I have used to date, the players that have received them would not trade them for anything because of how they hit. Another factor that comes into play with these shafts is the high growth ring count. Many of these shafts have a ring count from 30 to as high 65 per square inch. One thing I can say completely is that the more ring count = the more density = heaver shaft wood.

So I suppose in my opinion, light shafts ( less than 3.5), or bleached white shafts, = poor wood!!

 

[manwon]

If I wanted a cuemakers opinion, that is where I would have posted it. But feel free to lend any "expertise" you might feel you can contribute.

One other note, this forum is going to become an a$$kissing fest. Unless of course pharoah gets to a review. The object for another forum was to get the static out of the for sale section.

JV

I also agree, between giving things away for free FOR REPUTATION POINTS , to asking the MODs for a pat on the head this crap is getting out of hand. Maybe we should start a thread and hand out the BIGEST BROWN NOSE OF THE YEAR AWARD!! I must say I have a Nominee, and I am certain no one can guess who it is!!!!!!!!!

 

[masonh]

i saw the giveaways yesterday for free rep and though it seemed a little out of line to me as well.what is the point of the rep points if they can be bought.i guees other things could be bought as well.

 

[JesPiddlin]

I agree that taper and size probably have a lot to do with it, but there is one thing I think makes the biggest difference on the performance and that's weight distribution preference. If a guy plays best with a cue that's weighted more forward, he's probably going to appreciate the heavier shaft. If he plays best with a cue that's weighted more in the rear, he's probably going to look for a cue that has less weight up front. So, without knowing the balance preferences of the players who say they prefer lighter or heavier weighted shafts, it's hard to know whether the cue really plays better with lighter or heavier shafts. It could be that all who commented really like their cues weighted more in the back.

If you're going to ask the question (which is a very good question), you might consider following up with more questions, such as...

1. where folks prefer the weight in a cue,
2. what kind of taper they prefer,
3. whether they like a lighter or heavier weighted shaft.

There might even be another question or two you could grab from the info shared in this thread.

 

[masonh]

you can make the cue front or rear weighted with ot with out a light or heavy shaft.the shaft does affect the balance,but ther balance is not dependant on the shaft weight.

 

[masonh]

"4. The number of growth rings on a shaft is a selling point only. There is no direct relationship between # of growth rings and superior performance. High rpi shafts occur less frequently, just as very low rpi shafts do. The average rpi of shaft maple is roughly 11-14. Although I do prefer at least 10 rpi I would much rather have a 8rpi shaft with superior tone to a 30rpi shaft that had thuddy tap tone on my playing cue. That is assuming all else is equal."

i have to disagree that high growth ring count is not any more rare than low growth ring count,and that there is no correlation to quality.i have a box full of 8rpi and unders that i will gladly trade you 2 shafts to 1 for your 30+ rpi shafts.i also have access to hundreds of thes 8rpi and unders and would love to trade for 30+rpi.i am not saying that it is the only or best way to determine quality,but i will take my chances.i fell if you have 100 shafts with 30rpi you will find more usuable or good shafts than if you had 100 shafts with 8rpi.i see the point you are trying to make and maybe you are right,but from my experience i will take the 30rpi over the 8rpi all day long.

 

[classiccues]

Tapers are a funny animal. Some guys still use a tent peg taper, with little or no straight section, some do the 10-13" pro taper.

What about cutting them, whats the best RPM to spin them at while cutting. If it's to fast do they tend to whip and possibly warp? Any correlation between cutting speeds and warpage?

JV