Shaft weight

[rhncue]

good topic.cutter is right it is largely dependant on taper and size.my shafts are usually smaller than most at the joint .825-.835",but i still like to keep them over 3.5oz.most of mine actually weigh right at 4oz or a hair over,in fact i have trouble finding light shafts for front heavy cues.i bought all my shaftwood from Eric and Wes and it is great.it is their Diamond grade,very dense and straight grained.my taper is fairly stiff,but a little less stiff than SW original taper.i made a j/b cue the other day and used a shaft that didn't cut it as a playing shaft.i left the taper very stiff and it was .855" at the joint and 13.25mm at the tip,it weighed 4.6oz.i made a sneaky for Snowmon and the butt was slightly heavier than i wanted i looked and looked for a light shaft,but couldn't find one.it came out 4.1oz.

i don't think a shaft has to weigh a certain amount to be good,but it is a starting point.as you said yourself lots of SW shafts are 3.5oz or under and have a stiff taper,but their joint diameter is skinny.i have had 10-12 SW cues and only one had 4oz shafts,thanks Ribdoner.i think weight is a decent indicator of density.i also like to see what the maple does when you cut it.that is also an indicator of density.i like the wood to stay smooth with no loose fibers or pits.

i don't do any SS cues but i would think that the brass inserts weigh .3-.4oz which would mean a 3.5oz shaft with brass insert is light.as far as 3oz shafts go,i wouldn't want one.i am sure there are some good ones out there,but i wouldn't want to take a chance.for a standard taper and joint diamtere 3oz is probably going to be too light to be quality shaftwood for the most part.for me i like them 3.5-4.5oz with a 13mm tip and .830"ish joint.

i like to look for weight,straightness,density,ring count and tone in no particular order,but it seems ring count and weight get priority.maybe b/c they are the easiest to check.




"on another note i won't use vacuum-kiln dried shaftwood.i like the air dried or kiln dried wood only.i do not want my wood cooked at 500 degrees,and i don't buy into the stress relieved theory.most of my shafts are dark with some sugar and some people might not like it,but i don't care much about getting really white wood.most of the really white stuff is vacuum-kiln dried."

Mase, I believe this is one of the instances I was referring to when I said that someone reads something wrong and then passes it on as truth. I've heard this stated a few times on these forums here lately and I'm wondering where it is that this wrong conclusion originated from. Where have you read that vacuum dried wood is "cooked" to 500 deg? Vacuum dried wood is dried through vacuum sucking out the moisture and when the atmospheric pressure is dropped so low for this to occur, the moisture in the wood actually freezes. Heat is added just to keep the temperature at a level to keep this moisture from freezing from occurring. At low atmospheric pressure the moisture in the wood turns to a gas state and boils off at less than 50 deg. Heat kiln woods are the ones that actually "cook" the wood. That is the reason that the wood is darker when leaving a heat kiln than before entering.

Dick

 

[cutter]

Another urban myth busted, hey we should get the guys on the Discovery Channel to do a show on pool cue myths. Maybe one show won't be enough.

 

[manwon]

Tapers are a funny animal. Some guys still use a tent peg taper, with little or no straight section, some do the 10-13" pro taper.

What about cutting them, whats the best RPM to spin them at while cutting. If it's to fast do they tend to whip and possibly warp? Any correlation between cutting speeds and warpage?



JV

What about cutting them, whats the best RPM to spin them at while cutting. If it's to fast do they tend to whip and possibly warp? Any correlation between cutting speeds and warpage?

This will depend upon the equipment you have to accomplish the task. However, in my opinion slow is best, and the slower you can cut the better. To determine the best speedTo much speed = chatter marks from the wood whiping to and frow, however over tightening a shaft blank for turning between centers can also cause this to occur. To determine the best tension and cutting speed for any equipment can be determined in the following manner. Install shaft dowel apply tension, place a dial indicator on the center of dowel slowly increase the rotation speed until within 1 to 3 thousands runout. This along with a sharp cutting tool will allow you to fine tune your settings for any machine. I am uncertain if cutting speeds will cause warpage, however, a combination of many factor's will.

1. Poor Quality Wood
2. Improperly Seasoned or Stored wood (In my opinion Non-kiln dried is best)
3. Slowly turned / Small cuts during turning (For me Max 25 thousand per turning 3 to 6 months between turning depending upon Humdity, tempeture/ time of year.)

 

[icem3n]

So how important is it? I know there has been issues with "light" shafts, but what do you think is the right weight? I ask because I see shafts that are for big pin joints, 3/8-11 and so forth they rarely tip the scales at 3.7, in fact I find a lot don't make 3.5. This is true with SW, a cue in the FS section by James White. Both cuemakers are known for their quality shafts. I know traditional shafts are almost always at 4.0 or better. But then have brass insert and in many cases steel trim rings. So are people getting "shafted" in thinking 4 oz is the right number? Remove the insert and steel trim rings, what do you have? 3.7-3.9. So what is more important, weight or nice grain and increased growth rings?

JV

If SVB is playing with a loose grip and open brigde and you give him a maple nose southwest with a 3.3oz shaft, I bet he sure will miss the 1st long half ball shot.

Heavy front is important for shot making. It will not cause the front end to float unless the guy is using a closed bridge.

It doesn't matter whether it utilised a metal insert or SS joint or dense forearm to make the front end heavy. You can have a dense solid ebony nose with plastic joint, brass radial pin and a 3.3 oz shaft and it will still play perfect. Because the nose help to bring the front end down.

A SW with light nose and 4++oz shaft will play better. Here, nothing much to help you play around to make the front end heavy except the maple wood.

It is the design and consideration of materials put into construction that is important.

 

[jazznpool]

Mason, I realize you're a guy who loves high ring counts no matter what. I like them to a point but I realize that a high ring count shaft can also be a dud. My point is that a 25rpi shaft will not necessarily play noticeably better than an 12 ring count shaft. I talk to other cuemakers and visit the guys who produce and sell maple for pool cues. Like you, I also have playing and working experience turning, by now, several hundred dowels and shafts. My point is that ring count is highly overvalued as a shaft grading factor. High rpi shafts, if all else is good, command a premium dollar because they are relatively more rare.

BTW, the vacuum kiln I've seen in operation doesn't go 25% of the temperature you suggest for maple. I have shaft maple that is not vacuum dried and it is 95% as white as vacuum kiln dried because of the methods and skill of the producer. If you talk to the men in the field, the shaft wood maple log buyer, he will tell you he seeks maple without internal cross-graining or stress because he will get more #1 shaft blanks from the log. Log buyers are able to examine the log and cut a thin slice off the end to experiment with prior to bidding on a log. The experienced buyer will then know to what degree a log has internal stress, redline (sugar), grease, or mineral.

What do you think of curl figure in a shaft? If curl shows is it ignored, rejected, or maybe prized? Interesting to see all the different perspectives. Great topic.

Martin

 

[masonh]

i am not sure exactly where and when i read that Dick,it might have been here since you said you saw it before too,but since you brought it up i started researching it and it appears that both methods use basically the same amount of heat,and you are right that the vacuum kilns never get to 500 degrees.

" the moisture in the wood actually freezes. Heat is added just to keep the temperature at a level to keep this moisture from freezing from occurring."

i can't understand this part,how do they freeze it but add heat to keep it from freezing.once it has frozen it has been frozen it would seem.

i also read in several places that many experts believe that vacuum kiln drying attacks the molecular structure of the wood,possibly damaging its integrity and also making it lighter in weight and less dense.also checking and uneven drying seems to be another problem associated with vacuum drying.the only people i saw actually saying vacuum drying is better than conventional kiln were the people trying to sell the vacuum dryers.

"I still have to see a vacuum dryer that will dry better quality than a *properly* run dry kiln - DH or steam. So, is the time of drying the only advantage? If so, then the capital cost cannot be too high... most vacuum kilns are quite expensive. When used for very thick pieces, like 12/4 red oak, the vacuum dryer did indeed dry within 7 days, but the quality was poor on about 50% of the pieces. (Having been somewhat negative, I do have to say that VacuTherm has a good unit and good quality. I have not seen any in use, except one.) "

"vacuum drying is basically high-temperature drying done at low temperatures"

since the boiling point of water is lower in a vacuum,the water is aable to be vaporized out of the wood at a lower temperature.

to me it is the same effect as cooking the water out at high temperature,but the high temperature is not used.same effect different method.i like the kiln drying method better.

 

[masonh]

i have no problem with curl as long as it is quality wood.i read about the vacuum drying method and saw that i was wrong on the temp,but from what i read i still won't be using any vacuum dried wood.i am not really a high ring count guy,but like i said i will trade you all day long 8's for 30's at 2:1.i thought you had said somewhere that they are no more rare than the low ring count shafts.i also think that high ring count is overvalued but there is a correlation,imo.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Vacuum kiln advantages according to one of my suppliers
.
The advantages are:

1- The wood is stress free
2- It keeps the whitness of the hard maple
3- It provide a much more stable wood.

Thank you,
Joey~Will not argue it~

 

[masonh]

from what i read it is just the opposite.the wood from vacuum kiln is less stable and needs to be stress relived afterwards.it also makes for lighter,less dense wood,but it is whiter in color.i am not trying to argue it either,but i am curious about it and wonder how there can be so many conflicting opinions.the only people i saw saying that vacuum kiln is advantageous is the suppliers who use them and the people that make the vacuum kilns.

who knows i guess.Eric what do you think about the pros and cons?if anyone knows it will be him.

 

[rhncue]

from what i read it is just the opposite.the wood from vacuum kiln is less stable and needs to be stress relived afterwards.it also makes for lighter,less dense wood,but it is whiter in color.i am not trying to argue it either,but i am curious about it and wonder how there can be so many conflicting opinions.the only people i saw saying that vacuum kiln is advantageous is the suppliers who use them and the people that make the vacuum kilns.

who knows i guess.Eric what do you think about the pros and cons?if anyone knows it will be him.

I have read a number of hours worth of comments and reviews on Vacuum kilns which is very easy to do on the Internet using Google. What I have found is that the people who seem to like the Vacuum kilns are the manufacturers and those who own them and the ones who seem to have all of the complaints and down side information are the ones who haven't used them or can't afford them. I read the one report that you commented on about half of the 12/4 red oak was ruined using a vacuum kiln and the next comment said that that wasn't true at all and would anyone use a Vacuum kiln if they were going to ruin half their wood? Like any machine, it can definitely ruin a product if the operator is not knowledgeable in it's proper use. If an operator runs any type of kiln using the wrong schedules for time and temperature the wood will be ruined. Why do you think that almost all of the people who specialize in supplying shaft blanks use a vacuum kiln? Do you really believe that they want to put out a bad product? Pechauer cues cut and dry their own Maple. He has a vacuum kiln and 5 or 6 years ago it was mentioned that vacuum kilns made wood whiter and he got on line and said that that wasn't true but that Maple starts out white and heat kilns char the wood causing the darker look where as the vacuum kiln merely keeps it at it's original color.

I just know that I buy and turn between 200 to 300 blanks a year. They are white, no sugar or mineral marks, very straight grain and they have between 8 and 32 lines to an inch with an average of around 15. Out of these 2 to 300 I get around a 95 to 97% yield. It is always a surprise when one moves on me. I have been buying and turning shaft blanks for over 20 years and have bought from numerous places and where I'm getting them now they are of higher quality than any that I have found in this country. You can drive around this country all you want looking for good shaft wood but if you want quality you have to go north.

Dick

 

[masonh]

97%,nice.i have one question for you?can i have your source? i hardly make any cues at all and only put one shaft with them,you will never know i was there.

 

[rhncue]

97%,nice.i have one question for you?can i have your source? i hardly make any cues at all and only put one shaft with them,you will never know i was there.

I'll tell you this, You've got to go north of the border. I used Pieces of 8 until they burned down. I used Quality cuts until they changed hands and I've used some of Dominiak's. 15 or more years ago I once bought some from Diekman and learned a lesson of never again buying from a cue builder. I've purchased sample orders of 50 or so blanks from a number of places. The Pieces of 8 were probably the highest quality and the Quality Cuts a close second but where I'm getting them from now would give the best of them the 7 ball. They are by far the best I've ever purchased. They only sell wood in the winter months with minimum orders of 100 pieces.

Dick

 

[MasterClass]

This is a good topic. Very informative as well.

I remembered that there is a cuemaker who use to pick shaft wood by bouncing them on the floor and listening to the pinging sound it produce.

Does anyone do that? Or is there any truth in that or did i imagine the whole thing! Then i better go get my head checked!

 

[JoeyInCali]

This is a good topic. Very informative as well.

I remembered that there is a cuemaker who use to pick shaft wood by bouncing them on the floor and listening to the pinging sound it produce.

Does anyone do that? Or is there any truth in that or did i imagine the whole thing! Then i better go get my head checked!

Harvey Martin did.
First one I saw do it is Kerry Zeiler.
Kerry has insanely sharp ears when bouncing shafts.
He is the only maker I know who grades and matches his shafts by tone .
He does the same thing for his handles.

 

[rhncue]

Harvey Martin did.
First one I saw do it is Kerry Zeiler.
Kerry has insanely sharp ears when bouncing shafts.
He is the only maker I know who grades and matches his shafts by tone .
He does the same thing for his handles.

Pete Glenn, the patriarch of the Glenn family was born and raised across the river from Cincinnati in Newport Ky. Every year he would pass through here on his trips floating around the country. I was doing the cue repair at the last Camel tour stop for the Pro tour back in, I believe, 98. Anyway, Denny Glenn was there for the tournament and banquet and such and we were talking and got on the subject of George Balabushka. The Glenn family has the single largest Balabushka and Szamboti collection in the world. Denny is very authoritative on George. He told me that he used to go to George's shop, in Brooklyn I believe. Anyway, he told me that George had a small, flat metal plate with four short legs to hold it off of the work bench. Denny said that every time George got a new bunch of shaft wood in he would bounce each piece of of the plate a few times, keeping some and sending the rest down to Palmer. Denny said he didn't know if he was listening to the sound or if he was feeling the vibrations.

Dick

 

[qfancier]

So how important is it? I know there has been issues with "light" shafts, but what do you think is the right weight? I ask because I see shafts that are for big pin joints, 3/8-11 and so forth they rarely tip the scales at 3.7, in fact I find a lot don't make 3.5. This is true with SW, a cue in the FS section by James White. Both cuemakers are known for their quality shafts. I know traditional shafts are almost always at 4.0 or better. But then have brass insert and in many cases steel trim rings. So are people getting "shafted" in thinking 4 oz is the right number? Remove the insert and steel trim rings, what do you have? 3.7-3.9. So what is more important, weight or nice grain and increased growth rings?

JV

The best feeling shafts I have are older, yellowing, "ping-y" ones in the 3.5 - 4.0 range. I don't get too hung up on 4+ oz. as a criteria.

 

[Koop]

Personally I like them 4+ mainly because I like a front heavy cue. I've played with some shafts that were slightly under 4 and fine but once it starts getting below 3.7 I can no longer play my best with it.

Koop - uses a Universal Smart Shaft that weighs 4.55oz

 

[Cuemaster98]

I think everyone is forgoting about straight grain of the shaft...all the best playing shafts that I've encountered have very straight grain....it doesn't matter is the ring count is 4 or 20 plus.. I have some shaft that are only 8-10 with perfect straight grain and they are the best playing shafts ever. Check SW and Schon and you can tell the quality of their grain (both vertical and horizontal) as I'm told. I guess it has to do with how the logs are cut as well but it general...straight grain is the number one criteria for me!

Regards,
Duc.

 

[JesPiddlin]

I think everyone is forgoting about straight grain of the shaft...all the best playing shafts that I've encountered have very straight grain....it doesn't matter is the ring count is 4 or 20 plus.. I have some shaft that are only 8-10 with perfect straight grain and they are the best playing shafts ever. Check SW and Schon and you can tell the quality of their grain (both vertical and horizontal) as I'm told. I guess it has to do with how the logs are cut as well but it general...straight grain is the number one criteria for me!

Regards,
Duc.

But, the thread is about shaft WEIGHT, not looks. Straight grain is extremely important in helping you line up a great shot, but last time I noticed, it had nothing to do with the weight.

 

[classiccues]

But, the thread is about shaft WEIGHT, not looks. Straight grain is extremely important in helping you line up a great shot, but last time I noticed, it had nothing to do with the weight.

I have no problem with this getting into shaft quality, and other shaft issues. In fact I think I bought it up...

JV