Shafts not straight anymore

Ratta

Ratta

Hearing the balls.....
Silver Member
hm, how should i start :p

this is no offense against someone or so- in the last time i wondered a bit while reading some *sales offers* -Here on AZB or also on german forums. To me it seems that that there are often Cues for sale (from well known cuemakers from all brands)-and in the past i read more and more in the descriptions about shafts that aren t straight anymore....

So i m would like to ask here- what would you say about this problem. Is it about just using not good material, or can you *ruin* each shaft, no matter how *old grown* it may be?
I was just wondering, because it comes up more in the past- i mean more than before (from my feelings).

lg,

Ingo
 
Interesting question, and one I've also noticed lately. I see quite a few of the older mass-produced cues advertised as still being straight, and two of my cues are 15+ years old, and still straight. It seems like the newer cues though don't seem to stand up quite as well.

I do recall an old quote from Enzo, where he said something along the lines of, "handmade cars naturally have more flaws [than mass-produced cars]." It seems cues are actually half split on this, the butts tend to be far better, far more precise but the shafts have more flaws. Of course, it could be the players themselves, not knowing how to look after a cue.
 
Straight shafts

I would recommend "hanging" your shafts if they are not going to be used for awhile. The force of gravity will tend to keep them straight. I have had several warped shafts come into my shop that I could make perfectly straight just by letting them hang for awhile. Another point: a lot of cue makers, myself included, hang their shafts in progress. Gravity and air circulation seems to do the job of keeping a shaft staight(er).
 
Ratta said:
hm, how should i start :p

this is no offense against someone or so- in the last time i wondered a bit while reading some *sales offers* -Here on AZB or also on german forums. To me it seems that that there are often Cues for sale (from well known cuemakers from all brands)-and in the past i read more and more in the descriptions about shafts that aren t straight anymore....

So i m would like to ask here- what would you say about this problem. Is it about just using not good material, or can you *ruin* each shaft, no matter how *old grown* it may be?
I was just wondering, because it comes up more in the past- i mean more than before (from my feelings).

lg,

Ingo
Click to expand...

If the shaft is straight coming from the makers shop there is a good chance that some time during the use and storage it has not been handled properly. I'm not saying it's always the end users fault but I've seen some pretty vicious play by over bending and over extending shafts of a cue on certain shoots or mostly on break shots that the shooter will pulls the butt straight up in the air while keeping the bridge hand glued to the table on a shot. I'm sorry but the shaft is probably not going to stay straight after a few dozen over flexing shots.
On the other hand when I've heard stories of buyers saying the shafts were warped when I received this brand new cue are probably a whole different story!
 
If people don't take care of their cues , it happens . I've had shafts warp on my cues when one of my customers kept it in his car in what amounted to a sock . It gets between 150 - 160 degrees, depending on location, inside a vehicle . People whine about metal rings swelling or the finish raising over ringwork , same reason . Don't blame the cuemaker because you are a pelican . Take care of your shit , don't leave lumber inside a hot car or anything if you want it to remain stable ...:angry::cool:
 
I have a brand new custom made cues. I didn't check the roll of the shaft when i received it, then after 5 days of playing with the cue before putting it back on my case, i roll the shaft and notice a wobble on it. It's a nice hitting cue but i don't have confident shooting a long straight in and a cut shot.

Will a warp shaft will cause unintended deflection on the cue ball? Honestly i think it will since when i'm back in my predator cue my shooting is a lot sharper.
 
The_Marvelous said:
I have a brand new custom made cues. I didn't check the roll of the shaft when i received it, then after 5 days of playing with the cue before putting it back on my case, i roll the shaft and notice a wobble on it. It's a nice hitting cue but i don't have confident shooting a long straight in and a cut shot.

Will a warp shaft will cause unintended deflection on the cue ball? Honestly i think it will since when i'm back in my predator cue my shooting is a lot sharper.
Click to expand...

No, warp ( if it does have a warp ) does not cause more deflection.
 
JoeyInCali said:
No, warp ( if it does have a warp ) does not cause more deflection.
Click to expand...

Hi, just curiosity, your avatar pic seems to be the same pin that was used on my cue. May i ask where the pin came from? Is this a 3/8 x 8? I have been searching for an LD shaft for my cue and the pin is always the issue.
 
The_Marvelous said:
Hi, just curiosity, your avatar pic seems to be the same pin that was used on my cue. May i ask where the pin came from? Is this a 3/8 x 8? I have been searching for an LD shaft for my cue and the pin is always the issue.
Click to expand...

That's the regular UniLoc radial pin.
 
It's all about the wood. It's still sugar maple but the difference is in the choice of tree and process of milling. 20 years ago cue builders were using darker colored wood that came from older, more mature trees. Mills were also more often quarter sawing, which relieves most stress so the wood doesn't have a lot of tension after drying. Nowadays, younger, undergrowth trees are chosen because they yield a high percentage of white wood. The white wood is underdeveloped substance that is actively growing, and very much unstable compared to the heartwood. Heartwood is off white/yellow/brown in color and is basically dead, meaning it has stabilized & is no longer expanding & growing. That wood is stable, hard, heavy, very strong & very stiff.

Young trees have a high percentage of sapwood and a tiny heart. The older the tree gets, the larger the heart area gets & just before the tree expires, the sapwood is a tiny white ring around the outer edge, just under the bark. Used to be that these large trees were sought after because the wood is high quality. But somehow the cue world fell into this "bright white" wood phase & has suffered ever since. A builder cannot even buy brown shaft wood from the heart anymore. It simply doesn't exist in the market. Only small, juvy trees are being cut for cue shafts because they are straight, no branches & white.

Some folks will say the wood turns yellow & brown because of the way it's dried. And that's true to some extent. If let sit long enough, the wood will oxidize & darken a little. But that's totally different that sapwood vs heartwood. I think the reason shafts don't seem to stay as straight as they used to is because of the wood itself, not the guy building the cue or the person playing with it. In short, we traded structural quality for aesthetic quality. Some of it may have to do with the time involved in growing a mature maple capable of producing high yields of clean heartwood. 150-200 years is about the number. Those trees have long been cut & we haven't had time for them to grow back to those ages again. Some still exist but it's scattered & rare. So in a nutshell, the days of brown heartwood maple shafts that stay straight forever are virtual history. We can only do our best with what we have.
 
Ratta said:
hm, how should i start :p

this is no offense against someone or so- in the last time i wondered a bit while reading some *sales offers* -Here on AZB or also on german forums. To me it seems that that there are often Cues for sale (from well known cuemakers from all brands)-and in the past i read more and more in the descriptions about shafts that aren t straight anymore....

So i m would like to ask here- what would you say about this problem. Is it about just using not good material, or can you *ruin* each shaft, no matter how *old grown* it may be?
I was just wondering, because it comes up more in the past- i mean more than before (from my feelings).

lg,

Ingo
Click to expand...


First let me say that when you buy a cue on the secondary market it is hard to say why a shaft is no longer straight. However, in most cases any cue maker will take care of some one who purchased a cue directly from them if a problem like this occurs, but few will honor the same if the cue was purchased on the secondary market.

But to answer your question many things can cause a shaft to warp. Yes in some cases it could be the wood was not properly seasoned (aged), it could have a moisture content that was too high when it was turned, it could have been turned from sub-standard wood that should have never been used for shaft wood in the place. It could have been turned to quickly or had to much turned off in a single turning or it could have been none of the problems above. It could have been stored incorrectly, it could have been exposed to moisture or heat ( left in the trunk of a car or just left in a car), it could have been left assembled leaning up against a wall and with all of this I could go on and on.

In the end there is no way to know unless the cue was purchased new and kept under your control for it's entire life and then there is no 100% guaranty that the wood could not move or bend a little or a great deal, sometimes it just happens. This is why like I have said above most cue makers will give a customer a the benefit of a doubt and just replace a bad shaft if there is no obvious abuse, like they say sometimes shit just happens!!!!!

Hope this gives you some food for thought!!:)
 
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qbilder said:
It's all about the wood. It's still sugar maple but the difference is in the choice of tree and process of milling. 20 years ago cue builders were using darker colored wood that came from older, more mature trees. Mills were also more often quarter sawing, which relieves most stress so the wood doesn't have a lot of tension after drying. Nowadays, younger, undergrowth trees are chosen because they yield a high percentage of white wood. The white wood is underdeveloped substance that is actively growing, and very much unstable compared to the heartwood. Heartwood is off white/yellow/brown in color and is basically dead, meaning it has stabilized & is no longer expanding & growing. That wood is stable, hard, heavy, very strong & very stiff.

Young trees have a high percentage of sapwood and a tiny heart. The older the tree gets, the larger the heart area gets & just before the tree expires, the sapwood is a tiny white ring around the outer edge, just under the bark. Used to be that these large trees were sought after because the wood is high quality. But somehow the cue world fell into this "bright white" wood phase & has suffered ever since. A builder cannot even buy brown shaft wood from the heart anymore. It simply doesn't exist in the market. Only small, juvy trees are being cut for cue shafts because they are straight, no branches & white.

Some folks will say the wood turns yellow & brown because of the way it's dried. And that's true to some extent. If let sit long enough, the wood will oxidize & darken a little. But that's totally different that sapwood vs heartwood. I think the reason shafts don't seem to stay as straight as they used to is because of the wood itself, not the guy building the cue or the person playing with it. In short, we traded structural quality for aesthetic quality. Some of it may have to do with the time involved in growing a mature maple capable of producing high yields of clean heartwood. 150-200 years is about the number. Those trees have long been cut & we haven't had time for them to grow back to those ages again. Some still exist but it's scattered & rare. So in a nutshell, the days of brown heartwood maple shafts that stay straight forever are virtual history. We can only do our best with what we have.
Click to expand...


very interesting....i too don't get the snow white maple craze....i don't really care what color the wood is as long as it is good quality.

i've also heard that the color of the wood can vary depending on what season the tree is cut down at. is this true?

is wood bleaching common in the wood industry to produce white shaftwood?
 
McChen said:
very interesting....i too don't get the snow white maple craze....i don't really care what color the wood is as long as it is good quality.

i've also heard that the color of the wood can vary depending on what season the tree is cut down at. is this true?

is wood bleaching common in the wood industry to produce white shaftwood?
Click to expand...

I have heard that staining & sugar marks are less common on winter cut wood vs. summer cut, but I don't know how true that is or not.

Bleaching has been done I think but not typically. No need to. Maple sapwood is very white and when processed quickly it'll retain it's white color.
 
Shafts ( or wood for that matter ) staying straight or warping can be argued forever.
Take away manner of harvesting, cutting and drying these are the important factors which makers have control over.
Proper centering is very underrated imho.
Seasoning is also underrated I think. Imho it takes ( at least ) 4 summers and 4 winters for shaftwoods to be prepared for the real world.

When a maker is sitting on a bunch of his shafts at 13.5MM for months or years, he's in a very good position.
 
JoeyInCali said:
Shafts ( or wood for that matter ) staying straight or warping can be argued forever.
Take away manner of harvesting, cutting and drying these are the important factors which makers have control over.
Proper centering is very underrated imho.
Seasoning is also underrated I think. Imho it takes ( at least ) 4 summers and 4 winters for shaftwoods to be prepared for the real world.

When a maker is sitting on a bunch of his shafts at 13.5MM for months or years, he's in a very good position.
Click to expand...

Hi,

I feel Joey's comments are right. The key to Joe's statements is letting them season for as many years as you can. Ernie at Gina Cue has a minimum of 10 years of seasoning. He is a pretty good guy to follow as an example.

I have over 600 shafts that I have processed from classified planks to squares to dowels. I have collated out dowels that I will not use for shafts but are very acceptable for 29 inch solid cores.

I keep about 200 shafts that are tapered to .950 at the joint and use them for making cues. All of my wood is from before May of 2005 and the stuff I am using now is from 04.

Even though I have a lot of shaft wood, I am planning on adding more wood (400 pcs.) this fall. You can never have enough shaft wood in your shop. "Time waits for no man"

If you make 100 cues per year, that is 200 shafts. You need to get ahead of the production curve considering the seasoning factor. If you are buying shaft wood from a shaft merchant and are making cues out of it right away, there is problems in your control process that will come back to you.

Rick Geschrey
 
Thx a lot,

wasn t sure about some things- and now very satisfied with your helpful comments, my friends :)

thx from overseas,

Ingo
 
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