Shame on you guys

I have been satisfied with everything I have bought from TAR even though sometimes the stream is not the best. I am like some on here, I pay for the the feeds because I have gotten many free hours of feed that was great. I will continue to purchase these events in hopes that it turn into something bigger and better. I will support this startup company because they do things no one else is doing. And I like pool. So please support them if you can and if you cant it aint no biggie.

PS.. I like the DVDs and shirts.

Tim
 
Long, but explains a lot

Yobagua, I understand where you are coming from. This is long, but it tells the story of why things in pool sometimes fail miserably, even though those providing the products have the best of intentions.

For many years I had a web site up that had a lot of free instructional material. I didn't mind doing that, as long as I was able to sell the material that I had for sale. I decided to do a little experiment, and I removed the web site completely. I had numerous requests for the free material...

(Dear Dave, where the hell did your web site go? Can ya e-mail me some of those drills ya had up there?) lol

I took down the website because nobody was buying anything. lol (what the hell else was I supposed to do?)

There were VERY FEW requests for the books that I was selling - and they didn't cost much at all - $25 - in fact I would make them myself - printed them out, and put them together with my own binding machine. I shipped them myself and charged $5 for shipping even though it actually costs $8.

Over time - RELUCTANTLY - I put up another site, a geocities site with minimal info - some articles, and a link to purchase my book Lessons in 9 Ball.

You have to understand... I play pool. I teach pool. I write books about pool. I coach players. I sponsor players. My pool related income supports all of my pool activities. I don't dip in one fund to cover another. My other income supports my children, and goes towards bills, car payment, etc. Teaching this game, selling books - this is how I support my playing, my travel, and my advertising. I try to keep everything affordable.

Now, please stay with me... this is gonna get a bit ugly, but it serves a purpose in this conversation.

In August of last year, I stopped making my own books and started publishing them through the Lulu.com website. I didn't want to bother with it any more. Going with this company increased the cost of the book, and also added additional costs due to the shipping. That's life. The book still costs around thirty bucks, if you want the hard cover, its more - that's because it costs more to make the hard cover.

IMO, the spiral bound book that is made by Lulu is by far a superior product than I had been making in my office. Additionally, there is also a download of that same book available, which if I had my way wouldn't be available. I believe that "the spiral bound book in print" is well worth the price. I don't make any more money from the print book than I do off of the download, which sells for $12.50 - I get ten bucks from each download sale. Believe me, I'm not getting rich.

When looking at the sales, the download outsells the print book 5 to one. I also know that some of the downloads have been reproduced and distributed to others, or printed out and reproduced. This doesn't help me out at all, and yes I know for a fact that it has happened and for those that have done that, you suck.

Also, I guarantee you that TAR has sold more in PPV pool than I have in book sales in that same time frame - they aren't getting rich either - and I know they realize what I will say in the next paragraph.

The reality is that A LOT of people aren't willing to pay for anything when it comes to pool. They have short arms and deep pockets and they snub their nose and grumble about anything that they have to pay for. A lot of people don't like hearing that, but it is the truth. There are those that genuinely cannot afford it. I can relate to that all too well.

This year, I had to CANCEL DCC because I had 6 class cancellations a few weeks before the event. All of those people went to DCC. Those classes were part of what was going to pay my way there and back, and feed me, etc. I won't be in VF this year either - wanna guess why? rotflmao!

Now, don't get me wrong, I am extremely appreciative to the people that HAVE supported my efforts, and what I am saying is not directed at those who understand that for me to continue, I have to make money at what I am doing. If I don't make money at it, I cannot continue.

Its the same with TAR.

All of us have a love for the game, but over time, your love of the game isn't going to cover the costs that it takes to keep things afloat when you are constantly operating in the red. I'm not independently wealthy, I don't make a whole lot of money doing what I do, and if I cannot afford to do something or go somewhere, I stay at home. If I have to drive 3 hours to give you a class, and 3 hours back, then I have to increase my instruction rates. I will not (under any circumstances) put myself in the hole ever again for anybody. That's reality. Took me a while to get to that reality, but its where I am at now.

My advice, is that if you like TAR, support it with more than just words on this forum. Kind words are appreciated, but those nice comments aren't what is needed to pay their production costs. If we don't support it, then sadly, there will come a time where we will sit back and wonder why it's not there anymore. Us pool folks do a lot that, don't we? Think about it.

Sincerely
A Pool Player With Good Intentions
 
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yobagua said:
As of today before the finals TAR has only 33 buyers. Where are all you guys who say TAR is great!!!!???
If we dont support them they might disappear. There was some great matches today. Shane vs Montel, Luat vs Gabe, and now Luat vs Montel. Take your $15 and give them your money. Is it much to ask. Dont be a freeloader and just watch the free stuff. Support these guys, now!!!!!!! Dont be a nit!!!!!
I am pretty tired of people who don't even have any financial interest in something trying to guilt me into purchasing something I don't want to pay for.

FYI if I wanted to pay to see pool on a little screen on my computer I already would have. The fact that it happens during the week while I'm at work aside, I'm not interested in throwing money away on a live feed on the interenet when I can, for just a little bit more, purchase accustats tapes and watch them at my convienience, and then watch them again, and again. And if I feel like it lend them to a friend or just freaking give them away.

Save your guilt trips, this guy ain't packing.
 
Unfortunately I have to agree with Blackjack. It seems from my limited experience and exposure to our sport we have too many people that will not, cannot, do not, contribute much in the way of true support of pool. Yet we also have many players who will complain about everything that is trying to be done for our sport.

We oftern talk about how to implement a few big money tournaments. I had suggested (on another thread) that we all could make this happen on a regional basis with a contribution of $100.00 per player who is in the APA or BCA leagues. The first answer posted was that - call when you have 9,999 signed up then I'll pay the 10 bucks. I also offered up a secure way to pay through a recognized bank and interest fell even further.

I have to ask what in the world would be the encouragement for the pool players to pony up the cash and participate to make this dream work?
 
catscradle said:
I would like a little more meaningful commentary and a little less inside chit-chat. The first one with Bill Incardona and Grady Matthews was significantly better.

You know... what I especially like is the trash talk ... and the feeling as if you were there on the rail with them.

-Back2good1
 
supergreenman said:
I am pretty tired of people who don't even have any financial interest in something trying to guilt me into purchasing something I don't want to pay for.

FYI if I wanted to pay to see pool on a little screen on my computer I already would have. The fact that it happens during the week while I'm at work aside, I'm not interested in throwing money away on a live feed on the interenet when I can, for just a little bit more, purchase accustats tapes and watch them at my convienience, and then watch them again, and again. And if I feel like it lend them to a friend or just freaking give them away.

Save your guilt trips, this guy ain't packing.


... And here is the attitude that I described. Its kind of hard to keep things going when the majority of people feel exactly the same as he does.

Supergreenman, I am not attacking you, in fact I truly admire your honesty on this topic. There are many people that would never come right out and say that, but you did and it shows that you are not the type of person that would blow smoke up anyone's a$$ about your way of doing things. I respect that 100 times more than someone that tries to hide that attitude behind comments that say the complete opposite.
 
yobagua said:
Well I think we have some disagreements here. But rather than carry on any further intellectual discourse about what I said or meant is really useless. And I really dont want to get into it with someone like you. But I know I was not bashing every member of AZ billiards. I was attacking those who are freeloaders and nits. They do exist. Why because I am reminding of myself that I have those tendencies too. I remind myself not to be a freeloader and nit myself.
And when I said TAR is doing it for us. I dont think that many will disagree. THey certainly are not showing a profit from all of this hard work. Of course they are doing it for the passion and love of the game but ultimately we benefit. Even a worm can understand that. And also there are many members who do agree with me as well.
Any now lets just end this intercourse between you and I. I gladly dont have to live with you and you dont have to live with me. Our lives can be seperate, thankfully. And hope that the over 200 viewers today that logged on for free will pay for the PPV tomorrow. Even the freeloaders and nits.
Is it impossible to show support without bashing people? I too think what TAR is doing is great. I don't approve of calling people names for what they do or don't buy. The bottom line is it's their money to do with as they see fit. This is the same in my opinion as the AZ membership. I have purchased it, but does that mean shame on others that have not? I don't think so. What I think TAR should do is have a flat rate for the entire stream. In this way they will get a realistic idea of who is going to purchase or not. There has also been problems with the free stream. Is it possible to use the same format as the ppv? Without a doubt it is better. This also might turn people off who have not bought the ppv before.
 
back2good1 said:
You know... what I especially like is the trash talk ... and the feeling as if you were there on the rail with them.

-Back2good1
Maybe, I'm just spoiled by Accu-stats.
 
Does anyone know if TAR advertises in any other forums? Does anyone else here promote TAR in other forums?

I haven't but I will go and promote them in a few non-pool forums I go to.

Maybe the way to help TAR and pool in general is not to keep recycling the same money between ourselves but instead to try and sell pool to people outside of our bubble.
 
JB Cases said:
Does anyone know if TAR advertises in any other forums? Does anyone else here promote TAR in other forums?

I haven't but I will go and promote them in a few non-pool forums I go to.

Maybe the way to help TAR and pool in general is not to keep recycling the same money between ourselves but instead to try and sell pool to people outside of our bubble.

JCIN oftens post in the the "Jimbo" forum, but usually not promotionally. He'll sometimes post that such and such an event is available. One of the regular posters on the "Jimbo" regularly mentions when a new event is coming up.
 
Dawgie said:
We oftern talk about how to implement a few big money tournaments. I had suggested (on another thread) that we all could make this happen on a regional basis with a contribution of $100.00 per player who is in the APA or BCA leagues. The first answer posted was that - call when you have 9,999 signed up then I'll pay the 10 bucks. I also offered up a secure way to pay through a recognized bank and interest fell even further.

Just $1 per league player per week of league season would be enough to fund an organization to develop pool all the way from novice to professional. This amount would not be missed by any league player and would put American pool on the same level or perhaps even a higher plane than any other country's.

But it won't happen. Too much self interest for the APA, BCA, VNEA, ACS, TAP to ever combine to fund such an organization.
 
yobagua said:
No one is bashing anyone. Look at what TAR provides. 6 free days. One payment of $15 is not to much to ask from most people. Its a Movie and popcorn. Its two 6 packs. Its a carton of cigarettes, its one lap dance, its one and a half hour of pool. As a pool community we got to show more support for people like TAR. Today there was less than 40 purchases. There were more than a hundred on the free days. We just got to do better.
Its not if you could spend the whole day on your computer. Its showing support for guys who are fighting for us. If we dont do our part how can we expect
they to do theirs.

You must be playing in some high class, ritzy joints...

Where I play, for $15 I get to play for 15 hours, or more....

Heck, there's another place where if I buy a cigar I can play all day long, for free... on a nice 9 foot Brunswick... And that's a $3.00 cigar... :D


Not being a nit, just trying to keep things in proportion.

Heck, now that I think of it, at Cuephoria in River Grove, close to the Windy City, they have free pool Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday, and just ask you to buy some drinks, or a pitcher.

Bottom line, if someone is going to sign up for the TAR stuff, it should be because they like what they're getting, find it to be a good value, and are able to watch it when it's on. In the middle of a workday is often not the best time for that.

Flex
 
JB Cases said:
Just $1 per league player per week of league season would be enough to fund an organization to develop pool all the way from novice to professional. This amount would not be missed by any league player and would put American pool on the same level or perhaps even a higher plane than any other country's.

But it won't happen. Too much self interest for the APA, BCA, VNEA, ACS, TAP to ever combine to fund such an organization.

Maybe John, but once a bureaucracy is involved somehow that buck wins up be 2 cents when it gets to where the rubber meets the road.

Steve. <== born-again pessimist.
 
Blackjack said:
... And here is the attitude that I described. Its kind of hard to keep things going when the majority of people feel exactly the same as he does.

Supergreenman, I am not attacking you, in fact I truly admire your honesty on this topic. There are many people that would never come right out and say that, but you did and it shows that you are not the type of person that would blow smoke up anyone's a$$ about your way of doing things. I respect that 100 times more than someone that tries to hide that attitude behind comments that say the complete opposite.

Hi Blackjack, I understand your position, you make your living off of giving lessons and providing educational material. I respect you and your contribution to the sport and the forum. You have always been more than willing to share your knowledge with anybody who is willing to learn. You are an asset to pool.

Please don't think that I am unwilling to support pool. A good portion of my disposable income and time is spent on pool. Between playing 3 different leagues, travelling to tournaments, and volunteering my time doing stats and running a league I have made my contributions to pool.

I know I'm not the only person that commits this kind of time into it and I'm not looking for anything out of it other than the chance for me and others to play competitively in a supportive invironment.

I feel the original poster is way out of line saying things like "shame on you guys" <---- the thread title, and calling people who don't support TAR nits and what ever else he said. It's none of his business how I or anybody else spend our money.

If there's a product out there that suits my pool needs I do not hesitate to pull my wallet out.

Oh btw Blackjack, I took no offense to your comments.

SGM
 
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Johnnyt said:
We're not talking about people that don't watch matches on their pc free or ppv. We're just talking about the ones that watch the free feed but won't buy the ppv. Cry of the pool player "if it's free it's for me" Johnnyt

You know, I really don't think that it's just a pool player thing. People's mentality on how they handle and spend their money I believe is developed over time -- and most won't necessarily change their mentality just for a TAR match or product -- if they wouldn't donate money to other causes on a regular basis.

Although I like to consider myself a giving person -- when it comes down to it I like to think that I'm getting some value for my purchases. I think that this is how many of us are conditioned in this capitalistic society -- and it is just very hard to donate money for a pool-related thing, when there really are many other people and causes that we are not donating too -- that would certainly need the money more and would be more deserving from a philosophical point of view.

I have purchased many of the TAR matches -- but I also asked for a refund when the Schmidt/Harriman match went dead just before the end (since I watched every minute of the matches that I could ...and was very upset and frustrated when the feed went dead right before the ending). I also recently purchased a t-shirt from TAR, because it is something that I really liked. However, I did not just donate money to them using their Paypal link....and I would never buy a match that I wasn't able to view.

Here's what's funny. I saw Johnnyt's stories on Amazon....for less than a buck a piece....and although I really like reading pool-related stories...I just couldn't pull the trigger and PURCHASE the stories....even though they cost virtually nothing. Like I said, I think it has to do with some pre-conditioning that I've experienced, that just won't allow me to buy certain items (regardless of the cost) -- when you can find similar items out there for free.

So I think that it has more to due with our general mentality regarding spending money, and less to do with people's desire to support pool or not.
 
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Get_A_Grip said:
You know, I really don't think that it's just a pool player thing. People's mentality on how they handle and spend their money I believe is developed over time -- and most won't necessarily change their mentality just for a TAR match or product -- if they wouldn't donate money to other causes on a regular basis.
I do donate money to other causes on a regular basis, but TAR is not a charity. As far as I'm concerned they offer a product, if I like it ... well you know the rest.
So I think that it has more to due with our general mentality regarding spending money, and less to do with people's desire to support pool or not.
I think I'm agreeing with you.
I used to go watch the Joss Tour regularly when it came this way, I paid my way in and had no qualms about it. They don't come this way anymore, am I supposed to send Mike Zuglan a donation? Same thing with TAR, I won't let people copy the DVDs I've bought (can that even be done?), but neither will I buy something I don't find entertaining. It is business and has nothing whatsoever to do with "supporting pool".
 
Get_A_Grip said:
You know, I really don't think that it's just a pool player thing. People's mentality on how they handle and spend their money I believe is developed over time -- and most won't necessarily change their mentality just for a TAR match or product -- if they wouldn't donate money to other causes on a regular basis.

Although I like to consider myself a giving person -- when it comes down to it I like to think that I'm getting some value for my purchases. I think that this is how many of us are conditioned in this capitalistic society -- and it is just very hard to donate money for a pool-related thing, when there really are many other people and causes that we are not donating too -- that would certainly need the money more and would be more deserving from a philosophical point of view.

I have purchased many of the TAR matches -- but I also asked for a refund when the Schmidt/Harriman match went dead just before the end (since I watched every minute of the matches that I could ...and was very upset and frustrated when the feed went dead right before the ending). I also recently purchased a t-shirt from TAR, because it is something that I really liked. However, I did not just donate money to them using their Paypal link....and I would never buy a match that I wasn't able to view.

Here's what's funny. I saw Johnnyt's stories on Amazon....for less than a buck a piece....and although I really like reading pool-related stories...I just couldn't pull the trigger and PURCHASE the stories....even though they cost virtually nothing. Like I said, I think it has to do with some pre-conditioning that I've experienced, that just won't allow me to buy certain items (regardless of the cost) -- when you can find similar items out there for free.

So I think that it has more to due with our general mentality regarding spending money, and less to do with people's desire to support pool or not.

I'm glad you brought up one of my stories, because that's why I put it on here for free for a week. I have an unpublished book ready to go on pool and wanted to get a feel for the intrest.

When the story was free on here it did about 800 reads in less than a week. When it went back to $0.49 it also went back to about 3 reads a day. I put the manuscript in a drawer and went back to mainstream fiction with some pool and gambling in it.

There are other professions that are cheap. I was a nurse for 15 years and you wouldn't believe how cheap doctors are. So you see pool players are in good company.:D Johnnyt
 
Smorgass Bored said:
What is TAR ?
Are there any nekkid wimmin involved ?
Doug
( will they take poker chips )
Change your avatar,I keep swiping it!It looks like the other thousand that are in my head.Their buzzing around all the time.They are TAKING OVER!!!!!GET THEM OUT OF MY HEAD!!!!!!!!!:eek: :D
 
jimmy-leggs said:
Change your avatar,I keep swiping it!It looks like the other thousand that are in my head.Their buzzing around all the time.They are TAKING OVER!!!!!GET THEM OUT OF MY HEAD!!!!!!!!!:eek: :D


DONE !!!!
D.
 
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