Short stops

rackmsuckr

rackmsuckr

Linda Carter - The QUEEN!
Silver Member
We don't use the term short stop around here. I learned about it in other threads, along with the definition. Paul Potier, Santos and Glenn Atwell were all named short stops.

My husband thinks there are thousands of them in the world, but I think there are truly only a few hundred, if that. Like Oregon has no true short stops. I doubt ID or MT does either. Western CN has a few and as far over as Alberta, there are only a few more there. WA has probably 4-6, although there are some A players that can beat them at any time. I know as you travel back east, there are more per state. If we took 5 from every state that weren't already high level pros, that would put us at 250. I think it would average out, as a lot of the states have 0-4, and some have 5-10.

As far as countries go - Canada - maybe 50, continents of Asia and Europe, let's give them 100 each (I heard that there were 10 players from the Philippines who can beat Efren, they just can't get out of their country!) and another 100 from everywhere else. Am I being too skimpy or too generous? Do you think they all have at least 250 like the US? Are there really any in Lithuania or Africa? If so, I haven't heard about them. And it seems that we have heard of most people that are making their marks in the tournament world, so these players would be out there. Maybe most of the short stops are snooker players, worldwide.

For instance, if you go to the World Global Snooker Centre (http://www.globalsnookercentre.co.uk/files/player.htm), they list about 90 players playing on their professional tour from all over. Clicking on those names though, you will see some of them don't really have any current achievements. Furthermore, if you go country by country, you will see the women and juniors mixed in with the men and it is somewhat skewed. I saw in Australia that Horace Lindstrom was listed, and I am not sure he is even still alive.

Don't confuse these players with A players. Short stops are A+ players, the ones that WIN the big regional tournaments. If your player has not won several, don't consider him. And they need to have done it in the past few years, not 10 years ago. If they had the chance to be on the pro tour, they would have a shot at doing well, but aren't as consistent as Efren, Hohman, etc.

So by my tally, I am saying 600 at the most, that play just under the top echelon pro in the world. What do you think?
 
rackmsuckr said:
So by my tally, I am saying 600 at the most, that play just under the top echelon pro in the world. What do you think?
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Nice bait :)

I'll chime in...

Since billiards is one of many true mental sports, it all comes down to how well a person "zones".

Some compare billiards to chess, and some compare billiards to a sprint race. I'm not quite sure of the intent of you question. I'm sure it was a simple one and I read more into it than needed, but I would like more info of what answer you're looking for.

Hope I didn't offend.
 
Your definition of a short stop is really a average pro. Santos and Potier are subject to beat any human on the face of the earth. They are both solid pro players. I imagine the reason your husband thinks there are more short stops than you do is he is going with the normal thinking of short stop and you are making it someone just short of World champion speed. You are right about a short stop being the speed to win regional events but wrong to put Potier and Santos in the short stop category. We all know who the champions are so just ask who everyone considers pro level players that are not champions. Short stops are not by the common definition those who could do well on the pro tour. They are the ones who would struggle just to cash in a pro event, but are subject to upsetting a real pro at times.
 
rackmsuckr said:
We don't use the term short stop around here. I learned about it in other threads, along with the definition. Paul Potier, Santos and Glenn Atwell were all named short stops.

My husband thinks there are thousands of them in the world, but I think there are truly only a few hundred, if that. Like Oregon has no true short stops. I doubt ID or MT does either. Western CN has a few and as far over as Alberta, there are only a few more there. WA has probably 4-6, although there are some A players that can beat them at any time. I know as you travel back east, there are more per state. If we took 5 from every state that weren't already high level pros, that would put us at 250. I think it would average out, as a lot of the states have 0-4, and some have 5-10.

As far as countries go - Canada - maybe 50, continents of Asia and Europe, let's give them 100 each (I heard that there were 10 players from the Philippines who can beat Efren, they just can't get out of their country!) and another 100 from everywhere else. Am I being too skimpy or too generous? Do you think they all have at least 250 like the US? Are there really any in Lithuania or Africa? If so, I haven't heard about them. And it seems that we have heard of most people that are making their marks in the tournament world, so these players would be out there. Maybe most of the short stops are snooker players, worldwide.

For instance, if you go to the World Global Snooker Centre (http://www.globalsnookercentre.co.uk/files/player.htm), they list about 90 players playing on their professional tour from all over. Clicking on those names though, you will see some of them don't really have any current achievements. Furthermore, if you go country by country, you will see the women and juniors mixed in with the men and it is somewhat skewed. I saw in Australia that Horace Lindstrom was listed, and I am not sure he is even still alive.

Don't confuse these players with A players. Short stops are A+ players, the ones that WIN the big regional tournaments. If your player has not won several, don't consider him. And they need to have done it in the past few years, not 10 years ago. If they had the chance to be on the pro tour, they would have a shot at doing well, but aren't as consistent as Efren, Hohman, etc.

So by my tally, I am saying 600 at the most, that play just under the top echelon pro in the world. What do you think?
Click to expand...


That isn't the definition im familiar with. Santos a shortstop? I dont think so and there is no way there is even one player in the phillipines that is favored over Efren on a regular basis.

Anyway back to shortstop-Around here (NY) i think most would consider the guy who plays good but not quite good enough to beat a good road player, a shortstop.
 
Nostroke said:
That isn't the definition im familiar with. Santos a shortstop? I dont think so and there is no way there is even one player in the phillipines that is favored over Efren on a regular basis.

Anyway back to shortstop-Around here (NY) i think most would consider the guy who plays good but not quite good enough to beat a good road player, a shortstop.
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It has been prety common knowledge that there a few over there who beat Efern. I've further heard from some pretty good sources, that Bustamante gives Eferen the "7" and they practice for like $50.00 a game. They say Eferen rarely wins.
 
Like I said, I got my definition of a short stop from another thread.

Originally Posted by Celtic (spellings changed by me :rolleyes: )
You see I "don't" consider shortstop as a derogatory term. I see it as a term that implies a person is at the semi-pro level, which is why in my original post I said "semi-pro/shortstop level" as if they are one in the same. Therefore when I was calling you a good "shortstop" I was actually placing you on a pretty high level of play of upper echelon semi-pro, and you took offense to it.

Your book you mention has an episode in it when Tony runs into Paul Potier and he is basically construed as a "shortstop" as he smokes some local for cash. I pretty much agree that Paul Potier is in fact a shortstop, but if you know how he plays then you would know that he is an extremely talented player. Other people I would consider a shortstop are Tommy Kennedy, Joey Korsiak, Santos Sambajon, Glen Atwell, and other extremely gifted players that are just a step below that upper echelon of players such as Efren, Archer, Bustamente, Hohman, Feijen, etc... I am sorry but I dont see you along side Pagulayan, Wu, and the other top players, I see you on the step below with players that are nevertheless tremendously talented. Most players dont have a prayer of ever even reaching the shortstop level of play as I define it and Mark Tadd explained it.​

So anyway, if that is so, they are above an A player, probably an A+/semi-pro. My intent was to find out how many truly exist in the world by best estimation. Would I or my husband be closest to being accurate?
 
Do you think there is one short stop in almost every town? More? Less?
 
cueman said:
Your definition of a short stop is really a average pro. Santos and Potier are subject to beat any human on the face of the earth. They are both solid pro players. I imagine the reason your husband thinks there are more short stops than you do is he is going with the normal thinking of short stop and you are making it someone just short of World champion speed. You are right about a short stop being the speed to win regional events but wrong to put Potier and Santos in the short stop category. We all know who the champions are so just ask who everyone considers pro level players that are not champions. Short stops are not by the common definition those who could do well on the pro tour. They are the ones who would struggle just to cash in a pro event, but are subject to upsetting a real pro at times.
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My husband has beaten both Potier and Santos more than once in tournaments. He still thinks there are several thousand like him in the world. Actually he thinks there are several thousand just in the US. I tell him he has to be kidding!

Btw, I did not put Santos and Potier in short stop category - Celtic did and I was just using his definition.
 
Hal said:
Do you think there is one short stop in almost every town? More? Less?
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No, there are whole states without a short stop, by the definition I was given. There are only 4-6 here in WA and there are LOTS of towns. Those 4 are Dan Louie, Glen Atwell, Mike Zimmerman, and then there is a toss up for 4th between Rich Geiler, Raul Abenojar, and John Doherty.
 
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Tommy Kennedy is NOT a short stop. If a U.S. Open winner can be considered a short stop then there couldn't be more than 20-25 short stops on earth. No way Santos can be on this list either, short stops don't get on t.v. A short stop is a strong amateur player who is unlikely to cash in regional events. There are probably a couple thousand short stops worldwide.

--Steve
 
Assuming that there's a full-time tour, a shortstop would just barely miss the cut. In other words, a shortstop will most likely starve if he gave up his day job.

Santos, Tommy Kennedy would not qualify as shortstops, not by any stretch of the imagination.

-Roger
 
rackmsuckr said:
As far as countries go - Canada - maybe 50, continents of Asia and Europe, let's give them 100 each (I heard that there were 10 players from the Philippines who can beat Efren, they just can't get out of their country!)
Click to expand...

I don't think that's correct. I lived the last 13 years in Canada; though I'm wouldn't say I'm a know-it-all for all the talents in Canada, I think I have a decent idea. If there's 50 shortstops in Canada, there are hundreds of short stops in Taiwan alone. Talent pool runs deep in Asia. Just look at the WPC last 64 brackets from 1999 to last year, there's got to be at least 15+ players from Taiwan who has cracked the last 64, while Canada has about 5+-1. I would say Philliphine has just as many great players, and we're not counting Japan, Korea, Singapore, Indonesia, Vietnam, and other countries yet.
 
IMO, you will never know the name of a short stop to begin with...it is a road term in which it is a player that travels with a road player that sorta stakes out the locals in the pool room and decides who the roadie can play for the cheese. I have seen it have NOTHING to do with the players speed at all. It mainly has to do with brains...he has to know the room from walking into it and find the action for his partner. His job is not to win, but to feed the little fish so his partner can come in for the kill.

As far as playing ability of the road short stops I have seen, I would consider them A to A- players at best. Usually can string several balls, not racks, and sometimes play one pocket pretty sporty while the roadie is a nine ball player. Also, from my experience, the short stop was always an older gentleman while the road player was much younger. He could also be his backer.

Just my 0.02 cents...

Shorty
 
ironman said:
It has been prety common knowledge that there a few over there who beat Efern. I've further heard from some pretty good sources, that Bustamante gives Eferen the "7" and they practice for like $50.00 a game. They say Eferen rarely wins.
Click to expand...

That's the funniest post I've read in a long time. It's 100% bullshit (I guarantee that), but it's funny. It's spelled Efren, by the way.
 
There are thousands of shortstops all over the USA. You don't have to snap off regional tournaments to be a shortstop. If you know USPPA ratings, shortstops are generally between 130-150 speeds. Linda your estimates are way off. Generally for every poolhall, there is at least one shortstop, and in some poolhalls there are 3, 4, 5, or more. A good estimate would be to count all of the poolhalls in the United States, and make your estimation of shortstops roughly the same as the amount of poolhalls.
 
Where I come from, (Pennsylvania) a shortstop is the strongest player in a given room/area. They play about a ball or two or three below the average pro. If you ask the local pros, they know who the short stops are, you might not. Maybe it's different in the North East, but I know of probably a dozen from my area, and that might be cutting it short. These guys will string racks (4+) run 100's, and move like a ghost playing 1-pocket. They are the ones that end up defending the local room from road agents when they roll into town. I hav'nt played any down here in Florida YET, but I'm sure I'll butt heads eventually. I'm still learning the ropes here.........Gerry
 
Shorty

Shorty said:
IMO, you will never know the name of a short stop to begin with...it is a road term in which it is a player that travels with a road player that sorta stakes out the locals in the pool room and decides who the roadie can play for the cheese. I have seen it have NOTHING to do with the players speed at all. It mainly has to do with brains...he has to know the room from walking into it and find the action for his partner. His job is not to win, but to feed the little fish so his partner can come in for the kill.

As far as playing ability of the road short stops I have seen, I would consider them A to A- players at best. Usually can string several balls, not racks, and sometimes play one pocket pretty sporty while the roadie is a nine ball player. Also, from my experience, the short stop was always an older gentleman while the road player was much younger. He could also be his backer.

Just my 0.02 cents...

Shorty
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Shorty, What is a Kompan Bubinga?
 
Fats and Ali

Shorty[/QUOTE]

Shorty,
Where did you get that photo of Fatty and Ali? That was where Ali conceded that Fats was "The Greatest." Is there any way I could get a copy, or have one emailed to me?
the Beard
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