Short stops

I've read every post in this thread, and there's some very accurate information, and some not so accurate. I'm with Shorty, in thinking that Linda never hearing the term 'shortstop' in 33 years is odd, but certainly not impossible, nor insulting. Shortstops have been around for as long as people have gambled pool...but certainly prevelant in 'pool jargon' for more than 50 yrs. IMO, Mike Page's definition, and Gerry's definition are pretty dead on. Personally, I have never considered the term shortstop dirogatory. Quite the opposite! Being called a shortstop is being labeled a VERY VERY good player! I think the best general definition would be something like, better than the best amateur players (and many of those guys play like pros sometimes), but not as good as the top pros. Most shortstops would be unknown, except perhaps in their own circle, or among the local pros. They don't generally play tournaments, and they don't want their pictures taken...it kills their action. I liked the post about the number of poolhalls being something of a barometer, although, imo, that would have been more true 30-60 years ago, than today. There were more rooms then, and better players/gamblers, who literally fed their families off their skills, on a day-to-day basis. Today there are lots of pool rooms who wouldn't even have one shortstop, let alone several...depending on the area they're in.

To Voodoo...Steve, I'm not arguing with you about TK, but don't you think perhaps it might be related to the fact that so many GREAT pro players have relocated to Florida...making the mix a litte more skewed towards the higher end pros? Any tour stop in FL is subject to have guys like Buddy (or his caliber) playing. Not that he's unbeatable, but he does float to the top more often!

All in all, I think Linda's original post about her husband's estimate of 1000+ shortstops, just here in the U.S., is probably pretty close, if not low. I travel the entire country, and I see a LOT of really good players out there. It is probably the question I get asked the most..."What part of the country has the best players?" LOL I tell them, "they ALL do!" Interesting thread!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
Some points

First, it depends on the size of town a road player is
stopping into. I have seen many a 'shortstop' burn a
road player. And usually when they play, there is no
spot, they play even, at least in the beginning.

You have to define what a road player is. Many players
go 'on the road' to try to hustle, but are not road player
quality. The term shortstop or road player ranges are too
great to try to objectively classify them as being one way
or another.

I remember years ago, playing in a bar where I played league
out of several years, and this young kid comes in, and wants
to play, so I played him. I take between $4-500 off him, and
he tells me that he is from Oklahoma, and this is his 'first' road
trip to try to make some money, and this bar was the very first
place he stopped. I couldn't help but laugh, but I did make sure
he had gas money home.
 
rackmsuckr said:
I saw in Australia that Horace Lindstrom was listed, and I am not sure he is even still alive.
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Horace Lindrum had a world snooker c'ship title. He had a more famous uncle Walter. Both are not around anymore.
 
LA shortshops/pros

After reading all this, I'm trying to determine the shortshops/pros in my local area. And would like opinions from others as to whether this is a good ballpark estimation.

In Los Angeles area, we have Bernardo Chavez, Dave Hemmah, Lorry DeLeon, Morro Paez, Ernesto Dominguez, and Jerry Brunsetter. I'm probably missing more that are of shortshop merit but starting with these. I'm putting Morro and Ernesto definitely in the pro category and pegging Dave Hemmah as borderline pro. Then Bernardo and Lorry as strong shortshops. I happen to really like Lorry's game, but I haven't really seen his mental game with the pros in the bigger tournaments outside LA. Bernardo has beaten Nick Varner in a pro tournament, but is not ranked as "pro" with the others I mentioned at the Bellflower Hard Times tournament. Jerry is ranked "pro", but I consider him a shortshop.

Any thoughts ?
 
Scott Lee said:
To Voodoo...Steve, I'm not arguing with you about TK, but don't you think perhaps it might be related to the fact that so many GREAT pro players have relocated to Florida...making the mix a litte more skewed towards the higher end pros? Any tour stop in FL is subject to have guys like Buddy (or his caliber) playing. Not that he's unbeatable, but he does float to the top more often!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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Hey Scott, your right about Florida...a hot bed for moster caliber players but I wasnt just using Florida as a gauge. There are so many tours across the country to play in...the Joss tour is a who's who like the Florida tour, still certain names still dont show on the money list.

Thats what I was sayin'....
 
Scott Lee said:
I've read every post in this thread, and there's some very accurate information, and some not so accurate. I'm with Shorty, in thinking that Linda never hearing the term 'shortstop' in 33 years is odd, but certainly not impossible, nor insulting. Shortstops have been around for as long as people have gambled pool...but certainly prevelant in 'pool jargon' for more than 50 yrs. IMO, Mike Page's definition, and Gerry's definition are pretty dead on.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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Thanx Scott......You are a VERY wise person!:D ....Gerry
 
money

buddha162 said:
Assuming that there's a full-time tour, a shortstop would just barely miss the cut. In other words, a shortstop will most likely starve if he gave up his day job.

Santos, Tommy Kennedy would not qualify as shortstops, not by any stretch of the imagination.

-Roger
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If the short stop is only trying to make his money from a tour this would be the case, but most there money comes from gambling. Glenn Atwell has not had a real job for years, just gambles and plays small tours. On a side note, I wouldnt put Santos in the short stop list of names.

Mack
 
this has always been a pretty plain and simple explanation to me. "shortstop" is a player who is just one step from being pro quality. and i mean pro quality all the time. i'm not talking about soemone who has a good day and snaps off a tournament they were'nt really supposed to win. i dont see where they make all their money as having anything to do with it. if a guy is just one step away from consistently playing like a pro all the time then he is a shortstop
 
stolz2 said:
If the short stop is only trying to make his money from a tour this would be the case, but most there money comes from gambling.
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I'm referring to their level of play, not their intentions with their game. Besides, the point is moot because we don't have a men's tour.

-Roger
 
Pete said:
Hi Last two,

I'm not to familiar with the USPPA ratings system. Can you let me know were I can find out more about it???

Pete
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It's a computerized rating system, I'm not sure how to calculate it. Just to get you on the right track, Efren is estimated around 190-200 speed. That's like top 10 in the world player speed. Your average middle of the pack pro is generally around 150-160 speed. Go to www.usppa.com and browse around, they calculated some averages of the pros at the Reno Open a few years back, it should still be on there.
 
rackmsuckr said:
We don't use the term short stop around here. I learned about it in other threads, along with the definition. Paul Potier, Santos and Glenn Atwell were all named short stops.

My husband thinks there are thousands of them in the world, but I think there are truly only a few hundred, if that. Like Oregon has no true short stops. I doubt ID or MT does either. Western CN has a few and as far over as Alberta, there are only a few more there. WA has probably 4-6, although there are some A players that can beat them at any time. I know as you travel back east, there are more per state. If we took 5 from every state that weren't already high level pros, that would put us at 250. I think it would average out, as a lot of the states have 0-4, and some have 5-10.

As far as countries go - Canada - maybe 50, continents of Asia and Europe, let's give them 100 each (I heard that there were 10 players from the Philippines who can beat Efren, they just can't get out of their country!) and another 100 from everywhere else. Am I being too skimpy or too generous? Do you think they all have at least 250 like the US? Are there really any in Lithuania or Africa? If so, I haven't heard about them. And it seems that we have heard of most people that are making their marks in the tournament world, so these players would be out there. Maybe most of the short stops are snooker players, worldwide.

For instance, if you go to the World Global Snooker Centre (http://www.globalsnookercentre.co.uk/files/player.htm), they list about 90 players playing on their professional tour from all over. Clicking on those names though, you will see some of them don't really have any current achievements. Furthermore, if you go country by country, you will see the women and juniors mixed in with the men and it is somewhat skewed. I saw in Australia that Horace Lindstrom was listed, and I am not sure he is even still alive.

Don't confuse these players with A players. Short stops are A+ players, the ones that WIN the big regional tournaments. If your player has not won several, don't consider him. And they need to have done it in the past few years, not 10 years ago. If they had the chance to be on the pro tour, they would have a shot at doing well, but aren't as consistent as Efren, Hohman, etc.

So by my tally, I am saying 600 at the most, that play just under the top echelon pro in the world. What do you think?
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I think we have a different definition of shortstop.

I define a shortstop as a very good player who can beat pros in any given set. I would define myself as a low level shortstop because I have beaten pros once in a while. I have lots of friends who play a couple balls better than me who are mid to high-level shortstops in my opinion because no one has to like it playing them. But they don't have the game or the time to devote to the game to go full time pro.

Given that so many full-time players (pros) play in regional events it is unfair to use the criteria of winning the regionals as the bar for defining a shortstop. I think that finishes in those events is a good indicator though. Robert Ray, a local North Carolina player is someone I would characterize as a good mid-to high level shortstop. He took second in the Masters against Bustamante, but he hardly ever goes anywhere.

If we don't break down the term into low, mid, and high level shortstops and just take the high level ones, then I agree with you Linda that there are hundreds. If we use my definition, then there are thousands.

John
 
Shorty said:
$Bill....I know...I know...just step away from the computer...

You have to realize that a good percentage of the people here don't have what I call "real" pool knowledge. They are merely bangers or spectators. They have not gambled nor experienced the game to the level some of us have. By that I don't mean they have not played pool for money...they may have...but have they truly been against the nuts and walked away winner?

I get told to shut up alot on here I know...but I damn well know what a shortstop is in my mind, and that's good enough for me.

JMHO as my buddy $Bill says,
Shorty
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Well, your definition is right as is the same definition for players in the room the shortstop is scouting out. A shortstop is a shortstop whether he is on the road or not.

John
 
Scott Lee said:
Any tour stop in FL is subject to have guys like Buddy (or his caliber) playing. Not that he's unbeatable, but he does float to the top more often!

Scott Lee
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Speaking of Buddy,tournaments and shortstops.Maybe we have an up and coming shortstop in young Matty Menes.In the monthly 9-ball tournament at Planet 9-Ball yesterday,12 year old Matty was giving Buddy Hall all he could handle.In a race to seven,the score was tied 5-5 and then Buddy started sharking the kid by growling, scowling and non-stop whining & complaining.Complaining about the cueball rolling behind an object ball when the kid missed.Complaining about how jump cues should be outlawed,after the kid successfully jumped from a Buddy leave.Complaing about rolls,luck and whatnot. He complained while the kid was QUIETLY in the chair and when he was QUIETLY at the table.Buddy's grand daughter was there and he used her as a vehicle to make his thoughts known (loud enough for the kid to hear every word).It was embarrassing. Grady states before each of his tournaments that he won't allow or abide with whining & comlaining during a match and I agree with him.The final results were:
1st Richie Orem from Alaska
2ng Tony Crosby
3rd Buddy Hall
4th Trevor Braymore
 
Kompan Babinga

ironman said:
Shorty, What is a Kompan Bubinga?
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Kompan Babinga is a term a customr attached to a specific cue made by Mystick Cues owned by Jack Kompan. It is one of Mystic Cues Tiffany line of cues. It features the highest grade birdseye maple front and exhibit (museum)quality babinga from Aftrica for the handle and butt sleave.

It's a real ego trip to see such interest in one of my cues. Thanks to one and all...jack kompan
 
Shorty said:
IMO, you will never know the name of a short stop to begin with...it is a road term in which it is a player that travels with a road player that sorta stakes out the locals in the pool room and decides who the roadie can play for the cheese. I have seen it have NOTHING to do with the players speed at all. It mainly has to do with brains...he has to know the room from walking into it and find the action for his partner. His job is not to win, but to feed the little fish so his partner can come in for the kill.

As far as playing ability of the road short stops I have seen, I would consider them A to A- players at best. Usually can string several balls, not racks, and sometimes play one pocket pretty sporty while the roadie is a nine ball player. Also, from my experience, the short stop was always an older gentleman while the road player was much younger. He could also be his backer.

Just my 0.02 cents...

Shorty
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YOU HAVE ABSOLOUTELY NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT, LOL. I THOUGHT YOU HAD "REAL" POOL KNOWLEDGE? ahahahahahahHAHAHAHAHAHhahahHAHAHAHAHAH
 
Shorty said,
"You have to realize that a good percentage of the people here don't have what I call "real" pool knowledge. How would YOU know what 'real' pool knowledge is?They are merely bangers or spectators. Do you have any proof of this or are you just talking crap! Thats a bit of an insult to most of the AZers, dont you think? They have not gambled nor experienced the game to the level some of us have. What level do you play at? I,m sure all of US ballbangers would LOVE to know.By that I don't mean they have not played pool for money So 2 drunks in a bar gambling for more money than they make in a month have REAL pool knowledge?...they may have...but have they truly been against the nuts and walked away winner? Wasnt that Rambo?

I get told to shut up alot on here I know...but I damn well know what a shortstop is in my mind, and that's good enough for me."What a stupid thing to say.

Your arrogance is only surpassed by your lack of tact.

LMAO

Gabber
 
I just try to ignore him.

Gabber said:
Shorty said,
"You have to realize that a good percentage of the people here don't have what I call "real" pool knowledge. How would YOU know what 'real' pool knowledge is?They are merely bangers or spectators. Do you have any proof of this or are you just talking crap! Thats a bit of an insult to most of the AZers, dont you think? They have not gambled nor experienced the game to the level some of us have. What level do you play at? I,m sure all of US ballbangers would LOVE to know.By that I don't mean they have not played pool for money So 2 drunks in a bar gambling for more money than they make in a month have REAL pool knowledge?...they may have...but have they truly been against the nuts and walked away winner? Wasnt that Rambo?

I get told to shut up alot on here I know...but I damn well know what a shortstop is in my mind, and that's good enough for me."What a stupid thing to say.

Your arrogance is only surpassed by your lack of tact.

LMAO

Gabber
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I was thinking the same thing as I read that post, but I just try to ignore him, I don't want him to get me kicked off the site. LOL.
 
Nostroke said:
I doubt it was 256 bracket when Tommy won it- Im not saying he is a shortstop though- but im guessing it was 64 player bracket at the time- maybe 128. Anyone know?
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Hi nostroke,
It was not 256.Those days it was different and it was not like now.Those days it was exclusive to MPBA players+some that were accepted by the promoter Mr.Behrman.They were below 90 players.Subsequently rules have changed and whoever paid the entry fee is allowed to play.
 
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