Shot Clock vs Time Clock like Chess

Bavafongoul

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
My problem is them being up by two games and then intentionally prolonging the game to win on a technicality. I definitely see your point./
You cannot prolong the game to hurt your opponent since when you are at the table, you are on your time
and your opponent’s time remains unaffected by how long you take. All you do is run down time on your
clock, not your opponent’s. And the game would turn into rapid transit chess. Just shoot and play safeties
whenever your opponent gets low on his remaining time. In rapid transit chess, you just start shoving pieces
on the board when you start running out of time. That is not chess. It is last man standing and it can be amusing
to play but it’s hardly chess. It’s called beat the clock, not your opponent. The only time restriction in pool should
be you have 45 seconds from the moment your opponent misses and the cue ball stops rolling to get out of your
chair, walk to the table and shoot…….at 46 seconds, if you haven’t shot, you surrender the table back as is. The
2nd time violation results in ball in hand for your opponent for the remainder of that single game. This is how the
game should be played……fast paced and with penalties for slow play……it doesn’t take 15 seconds to walk to
the pool table to reach the cue ball. While at the table you have 30 secs. to shoot your shot & every shot thereafter.
 

easy-e

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
You cannot prolong the game to hurt your opponent since when you are at the table, you are on your time
and your opponent’s time remains unaffected by how long you take. All you do is run down time on your
clock, not your opponent’s. And the game would turn into rapid transit chess. Just shoot and play safeties
whenever your opponent gets low on his remaining time. In rapid transit chess, you just start shoving pieces
on the board when you start running out of time. That is not chess. It is last man standing and it can be amusing
to play but it’s hardly chess. It’s called beat the clock, not your opponent. The only time restriction in pool should
be you have 45 seconds from the moment your opponent misses and the cue ball stops rolling to get out of your
chair, walk to the table and shoot…….at 46 seconds, if you haven’t shot, you surrender the table back as is. The
2nd time violation results in ball in hand for your opponent for the remainder of that single game. This is how the
game should be played……fast paced and with penalties for slow play……it doesn’t take 15 seconds to walk to
the pool table to reach the cue ball. While at the table you have 30 secs. to shoot your shot & every shot thereafter.
I love a shot clock. I hate the idea of a chess clock.
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think this idea is like the 9 ball break changes or really any new rule, it really not a change for the better, just a change to be a change. There is nothing wrong with the status of the game with how it is, some players shoot fast, some shoot slow, it's the same as in any sport. Some baseball players spend 5 minutes adjusting their jock before they are ready to bat, some just go up there and hit em.

I don't see anything wrong with just a shot clock vs a game clock.

However I do think that time and game management in some sports is very important, football is a great example. How many times have teams lost because time ran out before they could score, even though it looked like if they have another 2 minutes in the game they may have? In those sports, being able to coach within the time limits and plan for it is probably as important as the play on the court (or whatever).
 

Bavafongoul

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think this idea is like the 9 ball break changes or really any new rule, it really not a change for the better, just a change to be a change. There is nothing wrong with the status of the game with how it is, some players shoot fast, some shoot slow, it's the same as in any sport. Some baseball players spend 5 minutes adjusting their jock before they are ready to bat, some just go up there and hit em.

I don't see anything wrong with just a shot clock vs a game clock.

However I do think that time and game management in some sports is very important, football is a great example. How many times have teams lost because time ran out before they could score, even though it looked like if they have another 2 minutes in the game they may have? In those sports, being able to coach within the time limits and plan for it is probably as important as the play on the court (or whatever).
In a tournament, a time limit per match makes sense so that you can keep the tournament brackets advancing equally on time. But there has to also be a shot time clock to keep play moving briskly. You could assign a max of 90 mins per match. At the end of 90 mins., the match ends and whomever is ahead at that point is declared the winner. If the match was tied, the winner of the next game, or the game that might already be underway but not yet completed, is the winner of the match. Shot clocks are really needed because some players take way too long deciding & shooting a ball.
 
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hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
In a tournament, a time limit per match makes sense so that you can keep the tournament brackets advancing equally on time. But there has to also be a shot time clock to keep play moving briskly. You could assign a max of 90 mins per match. At the end of 90 mins., the match ends and whomever is ahead at that point is declared the winner. If the match was tied, the winner of the next game, or the game that might already be underway but not yet completed, is the winner of the match. Shot clocks are really needed because some players take way too long deciding & shooting a ball.

But a shot clock also keeps the match times lower, using both seems a bit redundant. Also there are players that have different paces or play, each player should have the right to set their own pace, within reason, not be forced to match someone faster. The reasonable time can be set by a shot clock to allow them to do their own preshot routine per shot.
 

Bavafongoul

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
But a shot clock also keeps the match times lower, using both seems a bit redundant. Also there are players that have different paces or play, each player should have the right to set their own pace, within reason, not be forced to match someone faster. The reasonable time can be set by a shot clock to allow them to do their own preshot routine per shot.
In a tournament field of 64 or more players with double elimination, there can and certainly likely will be slow players.
If you’ve ever been a tournament director, and I have, it is mind boggling how the field advances so unevenly. This
leads to long wait times in between matches for the winning player. And remember that you also have to start to
weave in the losers bracket elimination matches. So you can get really slower play with that thrown in. And the
matches could be close, or not, but the pace of play is what governs how fast the overall field advances. You cannot
have some matches ending in less than an hour and others taking 2 or more hours in a large tournament field if you
expect the tournament to maintain the pace of play overall. Dunno about you but having to wait hours before playing
your next match after having just won is frustrating and can cause your game to suffer. So a time limit can & does help.
 

Bavafongoul

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
That’s kinda funny. Players do not have any rights whatsoever in a tournament.
The last time I checked, our Constitution omits mention about billiards or pool.

If a player doesn’t like the tournament rules, then don’t bother entering the event.
If a player thought the music was loud but everyone else was okay with it, too bad.

No one has to come up with a tournament that conforms to any player’s preferences.
The player has to adjust & accept the tournament as is or else find one you like more.

If the other player shoots like a machine gun, you don’t have to match their pace of play.
But you can’t shoot like you’re carrying a flintlock musket either. Just use the time allowed.
 

ctyhntr

RIP Kelly
Silver Member
This has been discussed several times before including the possible penalties. I think it's a good idea and has many advantages over the traditional shot clock. Try searching on "chess clock" if you want to see the previous discussions.
The technology is available. My idea of the game clock was start off with 2 minute game bank, 30 seconds per shot. Whatever you don't use is added to the bank. If you take more than 30, you take out extensions increments of 15 seconds.

The shotclock shouldn't reward or incentivize slow play.
 

easy-e

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
The technology is available. My idea of the game clock was start off with 2 minute game bank, 30 seconds per shot. Whatever you don't use is added to the bank. If you take more than 30, you take out extensions increments of 15 seconds.

The shotclock shouldn't reward or incentivize slow play.
I like your idea better.
 

sixpack

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Only suggestion I would make is that the switch is in each chair seat. That way if they are standing they are losing time. Shoot and Sit. Stay there until it's your turn.
 

easy-e

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
You cannot prolong the game to hurt your opponent since when you are at the table, you are on your time
and your opponent’s time remains unaffected by how long you take.
You absolutely can.

I know your clock isn't ticking while you're sitting, but all your opponent has to do is extend the amount of innings played, now he's affecting your clock. Why would he ever want to pocket a ball if he has a two game lead? I could keep knocking the one into tough spots relatively quickly. It's a stupid loop hole to an otherwise good idea.
 

Bavafongoul

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You absolutely can.

I know your clock isn't ticking while you're sitting, but all your opponent has to do is extend the amount of innings played, now he's affecting your clock. Why would he ever want to pocket a ball if he has a two game lead? I could keep knocking the one into tough spots relatively quickly. It's a stupid loop hole to an otherwise good idea.
What? I have been preaching about a 30 second shot clock for the player and in addition, for a large tournament field,
also using a time limit for the match. From my original post about this, I criticized the use of a shot clock like in chess.

I stated that skills and strategy should determine the winner,not running out of time. I included examples why it is really
a bad idea and with a shot clock, your opponent can’t interfere with your clock when he is on his own. And a two game
lead should be able to be overcome by any opponent if they play smarter and better. Remember a shot needs to be
taken every 30 seconds once a player is at the table. And your time at the table doesn’t affect your opponent if you
were playing with a chess clock setup which again I think is stupid. So I have no idea what you meant with your post.
 

alphadog

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
S
What? I have been preaching about a 30 second shot clock for the player and in addition, for a large tournament field,
also using a time limit for the match. From my original post about this, I criticized the use of a shot clock like in chess.

I stated that skills and strategy should determine the winner,not running out of time. I included examples why it is really
a bad idea and with a shot clock, your opponent can’t interfere with your clock when he is on his own. And a two game
lead should be able to be overcome by any opponent if they play smarter and better. Remember a shot needs to be
taken every 30 seconds once a player is at the table. And your time at the table doesn’t affect your opponent if you
were playing with a chess clock setup which again I think is stupid. So I have no idea what you meant with your post.
So it's skill and strategy to not leave a shot so the incoming player can't win because they have ran out of time before they get a make able shot on the 1.
 

Bavafongoul

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
S

So it's skill and strategy to not leave a shot so the incoming player can't win because they have ran out of time before they get a make able shot on the 1.
What in heavens sake are you talking about……you make no sense whatsoever with your recent posts.

How does the incoming player run out of time? There are 90 mins to the match. Okay. At the end of that,
the score determines the winner even if the match was dead even at 0-0 or 5-5. If a game is already being
played at the end of 90 mins., that game underway decides the winner. Meanwhile, each player has to play
a shot within 45 seconds of their opponents miss or safety. That includes getting out of the chair and getting
to the table……Am I going too fast for you? I can slow it dow to “See Spot Run”. Once the player plays their
1st shot after reaching the table, presuming it is legally pocketed, then the player reverts to only having 30 secs.
thereafter for every next shot whether they run the table or shoot a safety. So WTF are you talking about?

And even in your wildest imagination you must know that you cannot run out of time in this situation. You just
lose more games, even if it is just the one, that advances you, not the damn time clock. I hope you can finally
comprehend that you are talking jibberish about causing your opponent to run out of time. You really should go
review this thread again before your come down with more severe foot in mouth symptoms than you’ve shown.
 

easy-e

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
And even in your wildest imagination you must know that you cannot run out of time in this situation. You just
lose more games, even if it is just the one, that advances you, not the damn time clock. I hope you can finally
comprehend that you are talking jibberish about causing your opponent to run out of time. You really should go
review this thread again before your come down with more severe foot in mouth symptoms than you’ve shown.
Then what is the need for a chess clock? If you can't run out of time "even in your wildest dreams", why not just stick with the 30 second shot clock?

I'm asking seriously and respectfully, please don't give me any of your name calling for asking you to explain your reasoning.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Then what is the need for a chess clock? ...
This has been discussed several times before. Many of the posters to this thread don't understand how modern chess clocks work.

I figured out how to use chess clocks for pool after a league match to 100 at straight pool took three and a half hours. It worked like this:

Each player gets a starting bank of 30 seconds per ball needed plus 10 minutes for overhead.

The clock adds an additional 20 seconds per inning. That means that if you play briskly a safety exchange costs you no time.

When a player finishes his turn, he has to go over to the clock which is between the players' chairs and start his opponent's clock. For chess clocks, only one player's clock runs at a time. That gets the non-shooter away from the table as a side benefit.

If there is interference from outside or a rule needs to be decided, the clocks are suspended.

Rack your own on your own time. Take as long as you want to rack the balls. It's your own time.

Need a bathroom visit? Do it on your own time.

Need five minutes to decide on a safety? It's your own time, but you better play fast otherwise.

The penalty for running out of time was that your opponent got pro-rated points according to how much time was left on his clock. If he had 20 minutes left, he got 40 balls. That was at straight pool. For rack-based games you could do something similar or simply give a separate time for each rack. As it turned out, no one ever ran out of time. 30 seconds per ball is plenty. The pressure from the clock was sufficient to make the snails move it.

A huge advantage over the traditional shot clock is that no operator is needed. You could have all matches on the clock with no additional staff.

In Europe chess clocks are routinely used for billiard matches in league play.
 
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