Should Cuemakers Mark Pivot Lengths On Their Shafts?

[Patrick Johnson]

I've often thought that it would be great to have each shaft's squirt pivot point clearly (but unobtrusively, of course) marked, and wondered why no cuemaker that I'm aware of has started offering that.

This poll is about whether you would like to see pivot points marked on shafts. Please vote in the correct category. Choose from the first three if you are not a cuemaker; choose from the last three if you are a cuemaker.

In addition to the poll, I'd be interested to hear your take on why it's a good or bad idea. I hope some cuemakers will respond too.

Thanks,

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

First!

I'm not a cuemaker, and I voted I'd like to have pivot points marked on shafts. It would make it possible to get one that's right for you: short PPs for Back Hand Englishmen and break cues; long ones for "conscious" shooters like me.

I wonder if cuemakers don't want to open a Pandora's box of heated technological competition that will favor larger manufacturers.

pj
chgo

 

[JB Cases]

Pandora's box.

I think it just makes things more complicated for players. People should simply pick up a cue and play with it. If they like it then use it.

I use BHE with any cue I own. It takes me all of five minutes to figure out what I can and can't do with it.

Yesterday I was playing around with lagging and I realized that I could make the cue ball go two and a half rails and land within a 3" circle every time by starting with my bridge and exact distance away from the cue ball and following through to an exact point. So I thought wouldn't it be cool then to have a shaft marked with power lines indicating how much power certain positions would impart.

Then I thought that it wouldn't be cool because it really would make the game almost stupidly mechanical.

 

[cookie man]

I think custom cue makers should definatly offer this option.

 

[peter_gunn]

I dont like any mark on shaft...

 

[skeptic]

Clearly my ignorance is showing, but I always thought the pivot point was variable with power. ie - a soft shot would have a different pivot point than a medium which would again be different from a hard shot??? Plus what is medium to me may not be medium to you.....

Or am I completely wrong and power has nothing to do with the pivot point?

 

[sfleinen]

Patrick:

You have some brave and constructive ideas, as always. But in this, I'm going to have to vote "I'm not a cuemaker: I'd dislike it."

Here's why:

1. Change the ferrule (higher/lower density), and the pivot-point has just changed.
2. Wear down the shaft a little, and the pivot-point has just changed (and likewise, if you "blue" the shaft with chalk/dirt -- which, believe it or not, some people on these boards have expressed they like -- and the pivot-point has changed).
3. Change the tip (especially to one with a different density), and the pivot-point has just changed, albeit only a minor amount.
4. Have your local cue repair person work on the shaft (i.e. change the taper, condition it, et al.) and the pivot-point has just changed.
5. Hit the shot harder or softer (variably flexing of the shaft), and the pivot-point has just changed.

I think it should be up to the player to discover the pivot-point, and make whatever markings (whether physically on the shaft, or via a mental picture/snapshot) he/she deems necessary.

Just my $0.02 that I picked-up off the floor,
-Sean

 

[supergreenman]

In my not so humble opinion this would be the equivalent of making a ouji board a standard navigational device in all cars.

 

[supergreenman]

First!

I'm not a cuemaker, and I voted I'd like to have pivot points marked on shafts. It would make it possible to get one that's right for you: short PPs for Back Hand Englishmen and break cues; long ones for "conscious" shooters like me.

I wonder if cuemakers don't want to open a Pandora's box of heated technological competition that will favor larger manufacturers.

pj
chgo

PJ you can't be first in your own thread.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Clearly my ignorance is showing, but I always thought the pivot point was variable with power. ie - a soft shot would have a different pivot point than a medium which would again be different from a hard shot??? Plus what is medium to me may not be medium to you.....

Or am I completely wrong and power has nothing to do with the pivot point?

Squirt is not variable with power, but swerve is, and they both affect the amount of aim correction needed, so the "effective pivot point" that applies to each individual shot does change with speed.

But the "natural pivot point" (the one that corrects for only squirt on any shot) does not change with speed, so it's possible to mark it on shafts. The "natural pivot point" only changes from shaft to shaft, which makes it a way to compare shafts and choose one that fits your style of play (BHE vs. other vs. breaking), even though it doesn't take swerve into account.

pj
chgo

 

[JoeyInCali]

With CTE who needs it ?

Come to think of PJ, if the customer knows what pivot length is, can't he do that task himself ?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

JoeyInCali:
if the customer knows what pivot length is, can't he [mark it] himself ?

But how can the customer know before buying?

This brings up one of the difficulties: How could the method for measuring pivot length be standardized so apples-to-apples comparisons could be made and buyers would know what they're getting?

pj
chgo

 

[skeptic]

Squirt is not variable with power, but swerve is, and they both affect the amount of aim correction needed, so the "effective pivot point" that applies to each individual shot does change with speed.

But the "natural pivot point" (the one that corrects for only squirt on any shot) does not change with speed, so it's possible to mark it on shafts. The "natural pivot point" only changes from shaft to shaft, which makes it a way to compare shafts and choose one that fits your style of play (BHE vs. other vs. breaking), even though it doesn't take swerve into account.

pj
chgo

Ah, thanks. That explains what I see when I shoot with english and variable speeds. Learned something new. :thumbup:

 

[dr_dave]

Squirt is not variable with power, but swerve is, and they both affect the amount of aim correction needed, so the "effective pivot point" that applies to each individual shot does change with speed.

But the "natural pivot point" (the one that corrects for only squirt on any shot) does not change with speed, so it's possible to mark it on shafts. The "natural pivot point" only changes from shaft to shaft, which makes it a way to compare shafts and choose one that fits your style of play (BHE vs. other vs. breaking), even though it doesn't take swerve into account.

I agree. It would be nice to be able to visually compare new shafts. Sean made good points that the shaft can be modified to change the effective pivot length, but the original effective pivot length would still be a useful reference (e.g., "Now I need to bridge 1 inch in front of the mark for a firm shot when using BHE.").

There often seems to be misconceptions concerning squirt vs. swerve. As you point out, a shaft's natural pivot length does not vary with the amount of English or shot speed. However aim adjustments required to compensate for squirt, swerve, and throw do vary with shot speed, amount and type of English, cue elevation, and conditions.

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

How could the method for measuring pivot length be standardized so apples-to-apples comparisons could be made and buyers would know what they're getting?

The best approach would be to have an independent testing Lab with a well-built squirt-testing robot of good design. Every once in a while, I entertain the idea of creating such a Lab, but I haven't gotten motivated enough to pursue it. I would need some funding up front, and I would charge for each cue tested, and I would post all of the results on the Internet. I think the information would be useful to both consumers and manufacturers. Maybe when I retire from my "day job" I can set up such a Lab.

BTW, some data is available here, but the tests weren't done by an "independent Lab," so the results might be in question.

In lieu of this, any cue manufacturer or cue owner can estimate the natural pivot length of any shaft fairly accurately with one of the procedures described here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/cue.html#pivot​

Regards,
Dave

 

[StickmnBiliards]

To me it would seem like something that a cue maker might offer as an extra option. I guess I can't imagine every shaft they make to be tested to find the pivot point. I also think that the vast majority of players do not even know what the pivot point is. So they would probably wonder why there was a mark on their shaft.. haha

 

[Ralph Kramden]

BTW, some data is available here, but the tests weren't done by an "independent Lab," so the results might be in question.

In lieu of this, any cue manufacturer or cue owner can estimate the natural pivot length of any shaft fairly accurately with one of the procedures described here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/cue.html#pivot​

Regards,
Dave

Would the pivot point change depending on where you grip the cue?

It would seem that a cue held closer to the butt end would play somewhat more flexible.

 

[dr_dave]

Would the pivot point change depending on where you grip the cue?

No. The natural pivot length depends only on the endmass of the shaft.

It would seem that a cue held closer to the butt end would play somewhat more flexible.

How and where you grip the cue could affect the "feel" or "hit" of the cue, but this is very subjective.

Regards,
Dave

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I like the concept. I mean, if you're really hung up with pretty looking cues and think a tiny tic mark would destroy your baby---prob not for you. I think it's a good idea. Something subtle would be perfect.

 

[MOJOE]

I like the idea personally.. I know many may not go for it and most of the players I know don't even know what squirt is, or pivot for that matter. But to me, sounds like a pretty good topic of discussion.