Should there be a new aiming sub forum?

[SUPERSTAR]

Opinions, debate, same diff.

If you didn't want a debate, then you could have voted and kept quiet.
With that, um YEAH, it's a poll.
Vote away.

But just cause it's a poll and some people don't want debate, doesn't mean that if someone has an opinion that doesn't make any realistic sense, that i am going to let that slide and not point that out.
I mean, COME ON, we are talking about the difference between clicking on one tab vs another.
To assume that that action alone is going to be responsible for decreasing the amount of learning that takes place...!?!?!? Someone could very easily say the exact opposite, that having a sub section will INCREASE the learning that takes place on the forum. Certainly neither can be proven at this time.

And then to put the guilt trip on top of it, like the icing on the cake.
LOL. If it was me, that would be reason for INSTANT SUB FORUM.

For all we know, the people who sell their knowledge might LOVE the idea that they get their own section, instead of everything being lost over time in the main forum.

I still can't believe that someone actually tried to play the guilt trip card in a poll.
So to think that if they get a sub section, that they are going to get so bent out of shape that their stuff isn't in the main forum anymore, that they can't go on living?
That's just too funny.
But if it turned out to be true, and they WERE bent out of shape, i would think that if anything it would be a tell tale sign of selfishness.

"How dare you take our precious information out of the main forum where it rightfully belongs!!!!"
Sorry, but if they think like that, that's just a little bit too much on the snobby side.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I mean, COME ON, we are talking about the difference between clicking on one tab vs another.

If it's not a big deal - why are you so worried about it? If it's no big deal for someone to click on a tab, it's no big deal for you to ignore it, right? We should move all of your posts to the FORUM COP sub-forum.

 

[SUPERSTAR]

If it's not a big deal - why are you so worried about it? If it's no big deal for someone to click on a tab, it's no big deal for you to ignore it, right? We should move all of your posts to the FORUM COP sub-forum.

What is it that you fail to grasp about having all the aiming info in one spot?

Is it that you have a personal interest in it, so you'd rather see the threads eventually get lost, so that you can reply in new thread after new thread after new thread, ad nauseum?

Wouldn't you rather just be able to say it once, and have it all in one spot that is easily accessible so you don't have to be redundant?
Or is it that you enjoy hearing yourself talk on the subject?

 

[SpiderWebComm]

What is it that you fail to grasp about having all the aiming info in one spot?

Is it that you have a personal interest in it, so you'd rather see the threads eventually get lost, so that you can reply in new thread after new thread after new thread, ad nauseum?

Wouldn't you rather just be able to say it once, and have it all in one spot that is easily accessible so you don't have to be redundant?
Or is it that you enjoy hearing yourself talk on the subject?

Looks like you're the one who enjoys talking. Just a lot of talking. Never playing, never sharing information, never helping other players. I get emails daily about people thanking me profusely for helping them play better. Your claim to fame is mouthing, flaming, trolling and starting polls. It is what it is. Prove me wrong.

 

[JoeyA]

There are too many sub forums as it is. Most of the traffic comes from the Main Forum.

Many posters seldom venture out to the other forums. Most of the time, I just don't have time to search the other forums.

If I see a thread in the Main Forum that I haven't read and it has 20 replies or so, I may stick my nose in there and read a little.

The practice of increasing the number of Sticky Notes and sub forums is a detriment to AZ Billiards imo.

If a person doesn't have the will to pass on reading a thread that is going to infuriate themselves, they need to find another way to release that frustration other than ridiculing fellow posters or simply stay out of those threads.

Also, if you happen to post a little something in one of those threads that go awry, you can easily just click on the thread tools and unsubscribe yourself from the thread.

There are lots of posts that I don't agree with but I don't make it a habit of trying to ridicule my fellow posters. Hell, don't we all want this forum to be around for the next ten or twenty years?

Live and let live.

JoeyA

 

[SUPERSTAR]

Looks like you're the one who enjoys talking. Just a lot of talking. Never playing, never sharing information, never helping other players. I get emails daily about people thanking me profusely for helping them play better. Your claim to fame is mouthing, flaming, trolling and starting polls. It is what it is. Prove me wrong.

So now this poll is a popularity peeing contest, with you telling all of us how great you are?
Forgive me if i don't follow your logic.

Surely the people you help, would love to have an area dedicated JUST to aiming info so that if there is something they need to go over again, they can find it easier, right?
Surely YOU must get tired of repeating the same old info all the time. It would be much easier to teach what it is you know, and not have it die on the 15th page of the main forum, right?

So tell me again, what would be wrong with all the aiming information being easily accessible in one spot?

 

[sfleinen]

Aiming subforum actually creates an environment of freedom

Ya know, .... the only reason aiming threads turn into flame wars, is because the people that refuse to use them or give them ANY credence, the same people that don't want them in the main forum, CONSTANTLY have to turn them into flame wars. Which means, the only reason there are flame wars, is because some members on here WANT flame wars. And, they know they can easily get one with any one of three topics. I'm surprised that no one has started a thread about Obama being a Christian pool player that uses aiming systems.

Putting aiming threads into another section will only do one thing- it will lessen the amount of people that can learn something from this forum. It won't stop the flamers, they would be on JB new site about CTE flaming it there if he wasn't stopping them from posting.

Mike- if you seriously are considering moving the aiming threads, and you do move them, can I be the fly on the wall when you tell Stan and a few others that what they teach and get paid to teach isn't worthy of being in your main pool forum??

Neil:

You must know I look forward to reading your threads/posts (especially the "What would you do here?" ones). You know I respect your viewpoint -- I think that goes without saying.

But in this (the bolded part above, and the sentiments that are behind it) I disagree with, and frankly, I think you are clouding and miscategorizing the issue.

There is one common theme for the request for a separate subforum for aiming system threads -- folks are getting sick of them. It is not out of line to request a separate subforum for a topic that is very popular, and unpopular at the same time. The folks that are sick of seeing the aiming system threads realize that the aiming system threads are not going away (even if the defenders of them say they are "seasonal" or come in "waves"). The fact is, certain folks enjoy participating in aiming system threads.

Soooo... why not a separate subforum for aiming systems? It actually makes both sides happy -- those that don't want to see them don't, and those that do, have a nice happy area to participate without attack / provocation / scrutinizing. (Which, by the way, is probably more the root cause for said attacks than anything else -- folks are just plain sick of seeing these threads, and likely lash out in desperation.) You'll recall that John Barton started his own moderated CTE special interest group on Yahoo precisely for this reason -- freedom and protection from attack.

The defenders of the aiming system threads of course use the obvious excuse of "well, if you don't like seeing these threads, why don't you just ignore them -- why did you click on the thread to read it?" The problem is that the titles of some threads are very misleading, unless it has the name of the aiming system in the title. Even so, if the thread *did* have the name of the aiming system in the title, when you're sifting through the threads with your eyes, those things that are sore points tend to attract your eyes. So the very existence of the thing that annoys you, attracts you. Does that make sense?

I vehemently disagree with your message to Mike (presumably Mike H.) along the effect of "...when you tell Stan and a few others that what they teach and get paid to teach isn't worthy of being in your main pool forum?" It's not a question of worthiness, Neil. It's a question of FOCUS. Aiming systems have obviously attained the notoriety of being a popular topic, worthy of their own DEDICATED subforum, for those interesting in the topic to enjoy to the fullest.

I'll use your 14.1 analogy against you -- do you really think those that enjoy the 14.1 subforum (like myself) would even think of having that subforum closed down and all its content moved to the main forum, because 14.1 boosters think the game is "worthy" of being on the Main forum side-by-side with rotation games? No, the thinking doesn't go that way. The thinking is one of FOCUS -- those that love the game, can participate in the 14.1 forum and discuss topics FREELY, without taking swipes from the rotation crowd. You even put the question of mixing 14.1 back into the Main forum, and watch what kind of response you get *from* the 14.1 crowd.

I think aiming system advocates will actually LOVE having their own dedicated subforum, for the same reason that the 14.1 crowd loves theirs -- FOCUS. And that's what the whole idea behind "interest groups."

Make sense?
-Sean

 

[SUPERSTAR]

Thank you SEAN!
A fellow 14.1 sub forum guy comes through!!!!
WOOO HOOO!!!

 

[Neil]

.............

 

[JoeyInCali]

How about a NAR section?

 

[sfleinen]

Congrats on being the first one to make a legitimate debate on the merits of moving it. You did make some good points, not that I necessarily agree with them.

Thank you, Neil. Coming from a respected peer as yourself, I take that as a big compliment.

Now, my question , not necessarily to you alone, is, where do you draw the line?? Pretty soon, the main forum won't even be worth looking at. I just feel that the MAIN forum should be where most of the pool 'stuff' is located. Not take the popular topics and sidetrack them somewhere else.

[...cups hands into the shape of a megaphone, places over mouth, and aims up at a 45 degree angle into the air...]

"Does anyone know the meaning of the word, 'moderation'?? Anyone?? Why must everything come down to extremes? Can't there be subforums for those particular topics that have earned the privilege of their own interest group, without the mindset being that *everything* on the Main forum needs to be divided up into subforums??"

Neil, although I don't think you're a malicious guy, you are being malicious, in an underhanded way, with this thinking. First, why must everything be taken to extremes? Why is it that taking one topic that is causing a bunch of folks grief, and creating a subforum for those interested to participate freely, be taking to the extremist view of, "oh my gosh! That means we need to create subforums for road players, and subforums for 'what's the best tip' and subforums for 'what's the best break/jump cue,' and..." Come on, man! Have a sip of this nice cup of coffee -- not too strong, not too weak, but j-u-s-t right! You don't have to eat raw coffee beans (at one extreme), nor do you have to pour hot water through a well-used coffee filter (at the other extreme) to enjoy a nice cup of coffee. Have a sip, man! It's pure goodness, isn't it?

Taking life in moderation,
-Sean

 

[Neil]

.............

 

[sfleinen]

Re-read Hu's posts on the subject. It's a slippery slope you guys want to go down. As has happened in the past with other forums, they thought they were doing a good thing, and then all of a sudden one day, they go "What happened? This used to be such a good forum, now no one goes on it anymore?"

I just like to play it safe, I guess, and when I see something happening that can have very bad repercussions, I tend to go a different way. Call me smart, or call me an alarmist. Both might fit, or neither. I just don't think people are giving this enough long merit thought.

Neil:

Actually, you're BOLSTERING my point by bringing up Hu's posts on the subject, not contesting it. Hu's posts EXEMPLIFY what I'm talking about taking things to extremes. It doesn't have to be a police state, martial law, or otherwise. It's just applying a little moderation, 's all. And it's not moderation for "police state" effect; it's just creating a safe haven for those that want to freely discuss this popular/unpopular topic. The upshot of it is that the information doesn't get lost under the Main forum's always-onrushing tide of new threads. You'll agree that CTE (and other aiming systems) suffer from the unfortunate situation where the information for them is sparse, peppered all over the place, and one must thoroughly forage through mounds of old/abandoned threads to piece-meal the information together from not-so-reliable sources, right? Why not reap the benefits of a dedicated forum where the information won't get lost in waves of the daily Main forum tide? And, those that formerly got irritated by having aiming-system-thread-after-aiming-system-thread thrust in their Main forum face everyday, will calm down, and now have a place where if they warmed up to it, they can find the information in one spot. This actually cures the problem on so many levels, it's not funny.

Do you think the 14.1 folks didn't give it enough thought when they wanted their own forum? There's some very strong opinions there about 14.1 being just as regal a game, if not more so, than the rotation games, and being just as deserving of recognition / tournament tours than rotation games (same as "ghostball vs. CTE," if you will). But do you think the 14.1 folks want their haven closed down and all the content moved to the Main forum because "AZB's gone too crazy with the subforum idea and besides, isn't 14.1 considered a 'Main'-stream game anyway"? To say the least possible, "it won't be pretty" if that were attempted.

I'm not saying you don't have a point with what would happen if this idea were taken to logical extremes. "Well gee, moving the aiming systems into their own subforum really calmed things down... I wonder what we could do next to further 'improve' our site content?..." Anything taken to extremes is never a good thing. And good site maintainers (i.e. Mike H. & crew -- AZB's very history and longevity being "Exhibit A") already know the importance of properly-balanced moderation.

-Sean

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Hey, like it or hate it - aiming threads are the most heated and exciting threads on here. It seems like nothing is going on with the same old-same old until an aiming thread comes around and the next thing you know, there's 40 pages of controversy.

That controversy equals excitement for both sides of debates, which equates to more visits to AZB, more clicks, and more ad revenue.

As a business, azb should leave the threads with the highest visits in a place where people care to visit them. Moving popular threads to where no one visits will only hurt azb - not help it.

Outside of the funny pic/gif thread, no threads have as many views/posts as aiming threads. You can either classify these threads and move them and basically watch it die in seclusion with few views/clicks or continue to let them be in the main forum where people care to read them. Aiming threads are like Howard Stern- it seems like the people that hate them most, read them the most.

I think creating a sub forum for 14.1 was NOT the move. It's hardly visited or viewed. Apparently, people must've complained about a lot of threads pertaining to one of the best games pool has to offer. Maybe when players LIVE bar-pool, they don't want the main forum polluted with "real" pool threads. While we're at it, create sub-forums for EVERYTHING. Keep gambling in the action forum. 9-ball talk in the 9-ball forum. 8-ball in the 8ball forum. Banking in the banking forum, etc.

Sub-forums in general reduce site traffic and that's a fact. It reduces the chance of a random viewer seeing something that might interest them (making them want to participate and return). There should be two forums--- MAIN and NPR. Pool and NOT Pool. If someone doesn't like a topic, ignore the thread. Don't like someone who posts, put them on ignore as well. This forum software is setup to allow USERS to moderate themselves without campaigning or parading around to serve their own self interests.

 

[SUPERSTAR]

Notice how one of CTE's biggest proponents, doesn't want his favorite topic, to have a dedicated area of it's own.
That brings into question, the true motives for all these aiming threads to begin with.
Seeing that a sub forum seems unacceptable to some of them, do these people who know CTE, comment in threads so that people can truly can benefit from them, or is there some other motive?

The more spam that reaches the masses, the higher profit margin maybe?
I guess we'll see a CTE infomercial coming soon to late night TV.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Notice how one of CTE's biggest proponents, doesn't want his favorite topic, to have a dedicated area of it's own.
That brings into question, the true motives for all these aiming threads to begin with.
Seeing that a sub forum seems unacceptable to some of them, do these people who know CTE, comment in threads so that people can truly can benefit from them, or is there some other motive?

The more spam that reaches the masses, the higher profit margin maybe?
I guess we'll see a CTE infomercial coming soon to late night TV.

Notice how one of CTE's biggest knockers wants his nemesis threads moved to a dedicated area of its own?

C'mon - you can't be that stupid. Your spinning of the facts and implying I'm profiting from ANYTHING here on azb is quite insulting since I've basically DONATED over a 100 hours (AT LEAAAST) helping others in private for free. Having people call all the time, email all the time, PM all the time - and I answer all of them - for nothing.

I'm getting irritated with your insults. I've never insulted you, yet you get smart with me. The pool world is a tiny, microscopic place. We'll bump into each other eventually. When we do, I hope there's a TON of people around.... because you won't be able to cock-off anymore and hide underneath your keyboard.

Let's just play some and I'll video tape it. That way, I can sell the DVD on AZB and actually MAKE some $$$ for a change.

 

[easy-e]

Notice how one of CTE's biggest knockers wants his nemesis threads moved to a dedicated area of its own?

C'mon - you can't be that stupid. Your spinning of the facts and implying I'm profiting from ANYTHING here on azb is quite insulting since I've basically DONATED over a 100 hours (AT LEAAAST) helping others in private for free. Having people call all the time, email all the time, PM all the time - and I answer all of them - for nothing.

I'm getting irritated with your insults. I've never insulted you, yet you get smart with me. The pool world is a tiny, microscopic place. We'll bump into each other eventually. When we do, I hope there's a TON of people around.... because you won't be able to cock-off anymore and hide underneath your keyboard.

Let's just play some and I'll video tape it. That way, I can sell the DVD on AZB and actually MAKE some $$$ for a change.

Dude, you're SO money, you don't even know how money you are.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Dude, you're SO money, you don't even know how money you are.

You can be my manager. Like Bobby Hennan.

 

[SUPERSTAR]

I'm getting irritated with your insults. I've never insulted you, yet you get smart with me.

Never insulted me?
You should really think before you speak.

Your claim to fame is mouthing, flaming, trolling and starting polls.

Spidey, honestly, i could care less how much time you have donated, and to what.
And for the record, you aren't the one who i see touting an aiming system for profit.
You have already stated before that you wouldn't feel right if you were to release all of HAL's secrets for profit, while he was still alive. So i have no problem with you specifically.

But lets not be unrealistic here.
There ARE people who want to profit from selling aiming systems.
Some of them, you yourself have disagreements with on what is correct or incorrect information.
So in terms of the greater good. If you personally don't want to sell an aiming system, but would rather show it to select individuals that you trust, that's great.
But for everyone else, who get their buddies to start new and unnecessary threads on aiming, simply so they can eventually chime in with the whole..."the system that i teach, blah blah blah"
Having a sub forum would make it that much more obvious when someone comes on with the sole intent to just spam the main forum with aiming stuff.

But if you are SO against a sub forum, where the information would be easier to access, one really has to wonder why.

Maybe you can't see that because you are personally invested with aiming systems, but for those people who aren't, it definitely looks like there is some ulterior motive for you wanting aiming systems in the main forum instead of a sub forum.
If you are truly someone who wants to give freely of your own will, then what difference does it make WHERE you give freely?
Just saying.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Never insulted me?
You should really think before you speak.



Spidey, honestly, i could care less how much time you have donated, and to what.
And for the record, you aren't the one who i see touting an aiming system for profit.
You have already stated before that you wouldn't feel right if you were to release all of HAL's secrets for profit, while he was still alive. So i have no problem with you specifically.

But lets not be unrealistic here.
There ARE people who want to profit from selling aiming systems.
Some of them, you yourself have disagreements with on what is correct or incorrect information.
So in terms of the greater good. If you personally don't want to sell an aiming system, but would rather show it to select individuals that you trust, that's great.
But for everyone else, who get their buddies to start new and unnecessary threads on aiming, simply so they can eventually chime in with the whole..."the system that i teach, blah blah blah"
Having a sub forum would make it that much more obvious when someone comes on with the sole intent to just spam the main forum with aiming stuff.

But if you are SO against a sub forum, where the information would be easier to access, one really has to wonder why.

Maybe you can't see that because you are personally invested with aiming systems, but for those people who aren't, it definitely looks like there is some ulterior motive for you wanting aiming systems in the main forum instead of a sub forum.
If you are truly someone who wants to give freely of your own will, then what difference does it make WHERE you give freely?
Just saying.

I'm against all sub-forums, not just aiming.