Should there be full disclosure in PPV matches?

JCIN

TheActionReport.com
Gold Member
I didnt watch the Ko/Dennis match but I paid attention to social media and the forums and I saw something that made me just shake my head. John French is backing Dennis and right after the match is over announces he will be staking the Ko brothers. I have read that he talked about it during the match on the last day. I find it hard to believe something like this would be put together on short notice which means there were talks before the match happened.

Things like this will absolutely ruin the man on man format. I don't do matches anymore so it won't hurt me at all but it will kill any momentum one on one PPV's have. I know of many matches where the money is not what people say it is (and that is bad enough) but this is different.

People bet real money on these matches. The matches are marketed to fans as one thing. If there is any chance at all of them being something different that must be disclosed. To do any different is short sighted and stupid. The PPV audience is tiny and a good percentage is made up of people who bet. Just the appearance of a match being a show only is deadly to the entire format. If a match is an exhibition it should be called that, if both players are to be paid with the winner getting more it should say that and if it is true action then whatever number is announced in the middle should be there. If someone comes up short at post and the bet is adjusted that should be made known. No shame in that.

I don't know John French. He could be a great guy. But this mess with recruiting the same player you are telling the world you are betting against and doing it before/during the match is just nuts. Its like the Broncos playing the Cowboys and when the game is over Jerry Jones announces that Peyton Manning has been traded to the Cowboys and the papers were signed at half time. Even if everything is 100% in the match how can people not question it?

Am I wrong on thinking this way? I spent years fading all kinds of terrible situations and being crystal clear to customers on what was actually going down. Many times at cost to me and my partners. I dont do matches anymore but feel I had a big part in getting the format started. It bothers me to see things that will kill it. I think buyers should know what they are buying. What say the hive?
 

watchez

What time is it?
Silver Member
The other rumor was after Orcullo was going to play SVB he would then partner with SVB in another match and play against Bergman and Sky. That seemed odd to me too.

With players getting paid $1000 or more to play for streams, making matches seems like a good way to make a living.
 

BeiberLvr

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Full disclosure for sure.

This match could have very well been on the up and up, but like you said, you can't help but question it knowing more details now.
 

Johnnyt

Burn all jump cues
Silver Member
I won't buy anything that French has a player in. He might be on the up and up, but he comes across shady or stupid or shady and stupid. Pool action of all types has always had a shady side with shady characters like, drug dealers (both big and small), pimps, and others that make their money in some illegal way. Some have family money and just feel important hanging with top pool players. It is what it is. Johnnyt
 

JCIN

TheActionReport.com
Gold Member
The other rumor was after Orcullo was going to play SVB he would then partner with SVB in another match and play against Bergman and Sky. That seemed odd to me too.

With players getting paid $1000 or more to play for streams, making matches seems like a good way to make a living.

I saw that too. Its weird. I havent talked to Shane about it so I dont know whats really going on with that or if its a real thing.
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
I agree, if it's an exhibition then say so. With the TAR matches at least they were billed as challenge matches with each player getting paid when that's what they were and as money matches (two man tournaments) where only the winner gets paid when that's what they were.
 

BRussell

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Some guy is betting on one player, and then later he bets on the player he previously bet against - I guess I understand the conflict in the abstract, but what is a practical example of the kind of thing that could happen here? I'm not really into these kinds of long matches and I don't follow the gambling side of pool, so I really don't understand the problem. I'm not saying there isn't one, I'd just like someone to lay it out.
 

EL'nino

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Personally I really don't think it makes any difference, top players are playing hard to win for the cash or for pride. I see your point but I really believe these guys play herd to win.
 

gxman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
There will never be full disclosure.

The Shane and Dennis match could be for 10K each and they're claiming its 50K each for 100K in the middle to just hype up the match.

I really doubt that Dennis has 25K in that match like Frenchie says. Had he said 10K, I would believe it, not 25K.
 

Johnson

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It may just be bad timing and all you can do is give the benefit of the doubt. Surely they have similar issues in the Philippines w stables of players and you get something similar in mma when guys are from the same camp and they are hesitant to fight. Back in the 90's it's well known that some fighters would lose quickly to members of their camps when the tourney formats were widely used in UFC and other organizations.
 

EL'nino

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
There will never be full disclosure.

The Shane and Dennis match could be for 10K each and they're claiming its 50K each for 100K in the middle to just hype up the match.

I really doubt that Dennis has 25K in that match like Frenchie says. Had he said 10K, I would believe it, not 25K.
You're probably right but I'd watch if they were playing for dinner.
 

JCIN

TheActionReport.com
Gold Member
Some guy is betting on one player, and then later he bets on the player he previously bet against - I guess I understand the conflict in the abstract, but what is a practical example of the kind of thing that could happen here? I'm not really into these kinds of long matches and I don't follow the gambling side of pool, so I really don't understand the problem. I'm not saying there isn't one, I'd just like someone to lay it out.

There is a difference between a gambling match a not gambling match. Nothing wrong with either as long everyone knows whats going on up front.

Here is one problem: They said the match was for $10K each. That means Ko would of had a stakehorse. Im betting that stakehorse wouldnt like the fact the player he is betting on is in negotiations to play for the stakehorse he is betting against. I know some guys would bail if they found out. If the horse did know Ko was talking to the opposing side about joining their squad after the match and went ahead then thats on him but did he know?

This really is unprecedented since I have been around. Its totally possible its all innocent and just simply a really bad idea that no one thought through. The point is if you have two guys on the same team playing against each other its not the same as two guys gambling. If the negotiation to play on the same team happened before the gambling match took place its pretty easy to see why there is some concern.
 

Get_A_Grip

Truth Will Set You Free
Silver Member
I have no idea if anything "fishy" went on with the players or the match. But after listening to French in the booth, the guy was showering so many compliments on Dennis it was ridiculous. However, now knowing that French was the whole time working on signing the Ko brothers....it starts to make more sense why he was talking like that....

EDIT: For those needing the logic -- French loved the Ko brothers enough to sign them, so Dennis had to be Superman in order to beat Big Ko.
 
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JCIN

TheActionReport.com
Gold Member
There will never be full disclosure.

The Shane and Dennis match could be for 10K each and they're claiming its 50K each for 100K in the middle to just hype up the match.

I really doubt that Dennis has 25K in that match like Frenchie says. Had he said 10K, I would believe it, not 25K.

There was full disclosure when I did matches. It often was a kick in the balls to do it but it was done. I guess I expect too much.
 

filluptieu

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Justin... Please do us a favor and bring back TAR. These guys just don't know how to properly promote and execute on action/challenge matches like you guys.

Now in regards to the French - Ko Brothers as a team. Yes, it should of been announced. I lost a decent chunk of change but that is regardless of the fact that something just smells fishy here. This has also translated to me not wanting to make side wagers on the SVB Dennis match, or any match that has French involved. I think its great that French is backing players and making matches happen but the aftermath of the ko/dennis match is poor form.

I'm pretty sadden by all of this to be honest...
 

JCIN

TheActionReport.com
Gold Member
You're probably right but I'd watch if they were playing for dinner.

EXACTLY.

There is no need to bullshit about the match or teams or whatever. All bullshitting will do is turn people away who do care about what the facts are so they can handicap it intelligently.

If things keep going the way they are might as well just tell everyone the matches are for one million dollars. No one is going to believe what anyone says anyway.
 
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filluptieu

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Justin... Please do us a favor and bring back TAR. These guys just don't know how to properly promote and execute on action/challenge matches like you guys.

Now in regards to the French - Ko Brothers as a team. Yes, it should of been announced. I lost a decent chunk of change but that is regardless of the fact that something just smells fishy here. This has also translated to me not wanting to make side wagers on the SVB Dennis match, or any match that has French involved. I think its great that French is backing players and making matches happen but the aftermath of the ko/dennis match is poor form.

I'm pretty sadden by all of this to be honest...
 

Johnnyt

Burn all jump cues
Silver Member
If all the PPV betters betting and stopped buying the events...could maybe wake streamers up? Johnnyt
 

JCIN

TheActionReport.com
Gold Member
Justin... Please do us a favor and bring back TAR. These guys just don't know how to properly promote and execute on action/challenge matches like you guys.

Now in regards to the French - Ko Brothers as a team. Yes, it should of been announced. I lost a decent chunk of change but that is regardless of the fact that something just smells fishy here. This has also translated to me not wanting to make side wagers on the SVB Dennis match, or any match that has French involved. I think its great that French is backing players and making matches happen but the aftermath of the ko/dennis match is poor form.

I'm pretty sadden by all of this to be honest...
I appreciate the kind words but my days of matches are probably over. I still care a lot about the format. I think it will be what little future the pro game has in this country.

You are exactly the kind of customer/fan I am talking about. If guys like you go away its brutal. The core has to be taken care of and respected. I don't blame you for being saddened. If I bet on Ko and found out he was in talks to play for his opponents backer during the match I would be out of my tree. Even if everything was on the up and up its such bad form as to be insulting.
 

JCIN

TheActionReport.com
Gold Member
If all the PPV betters betting and stopped buying the events...could maybe wake streamers up? Johnnyt

I think people should make it clear they just want the truth about what is being sold. I didnt see one bit of difference selling a $4000 match and a $20,000 match. The PPV numbers were the same. Side bets were the same.

Promoters should know that they are not going to gain more buyers by hyping the money but they will certainly lose them by not providing full disclosure about whats really going on.

I don't want anyone to boycott anything as thats almost always a bullshit response to a problem. I just think an open discussion on what people expect should be had.
 
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