Should there be full disclosure in PPV matches?

[StraightPoolIU]

None of this really bothers me. I just like to watch great players play. I don't bet on the matches. As long as I get to see good pool it's ok with me. I'm probably the minority here I realize.

As a side note nothing about this match holds a candle to anything TAR produced in any respect whether it be production value, equipment, commentary, watchability or anything else. TAR set a high bar and I miss it a lot.

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[Nostroke]

I lost a hundred on KO but I'm not complaining. That's gambling- You lose for all kinds of strange reasons. I once had a horse called 'Out of Bounds' leading the race easily 100 yds from the finish when he jumped over the rail, had a heart attack and died.

I do understand the point and principle "But hey-this is pool."

 

[real bartram]

The other rumor was after Orcullo was going to play SVB he would then partner with SVB in another match and play against Bergman and Sky. That seemed odd to me too.

With players getting paid $1000 or more to play for streams, making matches seems like a good way to make a living.

I have never been paid or seen a player make 1 k for a stream .

 

[alstl]

I didnt watch the Ko/Dennis match but I paid attention to social media and the forums and I saw something that made me just shake my head. John French is backing Dennis and right after the match is over announces he will be staking the Ko brothers. I have read that he talked about it during the match on the last day. I find it hard to believe something like this would be put together on short notice which means there were talks before the match happened.

Things like this will absolutely ruin the man on man format. I don't do matches anymore so it won't hurt me at all but it will kill any momentum one on one PPV's have. I know of many matches where the money is not what people say it is (and that is bad enough) but this is different.

People bet real money on these matches. The matches are marketed to fans as one thing. If there is any chance at all of them being something different that must be disclosed. To do any different is short sighted and stupid. The PPV audience is tiny and a good percentage is made up of people who bet. Just the appearance of a match being a show only is deadly to the entire format. If a match is an exhibition it should be called that, if both players are to be paid with the winner getting more it should say that and if it is true action then whatever number is announced in the middle should be there. If someone comes up short at post and the bet is adjusted that should be made known. No shame in that.

I don't know John French. He could be a great guy. But this mess with recruiting the same player you are telling the world you are betting against and doing it before/during the match is just nuts. Its like the Broncos playing the Cowboys and when the game is over Jerry Jones announces that Peyton Manning has been traded to the Cowboys and the papers were signed at half time. Even if everything is 100% in the match how can people not question it?

Am I wrong on thinking this way? I spent years fading all kinds of terrible situations and being crystal clear to customers on what was actually going down. Many times at cost to me and my partners. I dont do matches anymore but feel I had a big part in getting the format started. It bothers me to see things that will kill it. I think buyers should know what they are buying. What say the hive?

yep
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[TheLoneSilencer]

I agree with JCIN 100% on this. I find the timing of all of this to be very strange. Personally I don't see this "partnership" with the Ko brothers lasting long especially considering who they answer to back home.

As far as where all this money is coming from... well that is a whole other story.

 

[JB Cases]

There will never be full disclosure.

The Shane and Dennis match could be for 10K each and they're claiming its 50K each for 100K in the middle to just hype up the match.

I really doubt that Dennis has 25K in that match like Frenchie says. Had he said 10K, I would believe it, not 25K.

If John Mars is involved there is no way that it's not on the level IMO.

 

[7forlife]

I'll read through the posts later but here is what I want to know.
I understand why some feel the way they do but in pro sports it is know what team a player is going to be on next season all the time, even in F1 so are you guys questioning that also?
If the papers were signed before the match I kind of understand but you had to pick a player anyway, so what happens if you player win, is it a problem still? Now if you guys are saying that it was a dump then that's totally different.
Based on the repercussions of making such a bad move on French's side I would like to think that it was emotions that made him spill the beans, just glad to know that "hey guys guess who I'm signing".
This could of also been a "hey kid, I want you on my team but, let's do a match between you and my guy and depending on how that goes then we have a deal, sounds fair?" And I don't know who Ko's backer is or was but just like in pro sports it could also of been "hey, I want you guy he can do better with me than with you so I'll give you X for him if he wins/lose against my guy, if he wins I'll give you full price but if he loses then it's X"
That's my thinking cause it's just too stupid to announce that you had both horses in a race, talk about hurting your action.

 

[iusedtoberich]

There was full disclosure when I did matches. It often was a kick in the balls to do it but it was done. I guess I expect too much.

I was just going to ask about this. I watched many of the TAR matches, and I don't recall you or anyone else saying what, if any, amount was put up by the horses. Yes, you said the corporations put up the 10k (or whatever the amount was for each match).

I'm just playing devils advocate here, but "full disclosure" also means what the horse is putting up in a true "gambling match" and what the stakehorse is putting up. It also means if the players get paid from the stream or any other sources, besides the outright win.

When you switched to the exhibition format (which I personally thought was way better), you for sure told all the fans all the details.

After the Ko Dennis match went down, my feeling is that Frencie backed both of them, and gave the winner a prize. I don't think Ko had any sort of "backer". I am purely guessing here, from the comfort of my keyboard. :grin-square::grin-square:

 

[Nostroke]

I agree with JCIN 100% on this. I find the timing of all of this to be very strange. Personally I don't see this "partnership" with the Ko brothers lasting long especially considering who they answer to back home.

As far as where all this money is coming from... well that is a whole other story.

Im hoping the whole thing was a result of some 'translation error'

 

[iusedtoberich]

I din't read the whole thread yet, but I'm also of the opinion that these top guys just want to win. I think we should do away with the "gambling" matches completely with these streams. Or maybe some small amount like 1K to winner, 500 to loser, and they each split the stream revenue with the promoter.

To the fans, we would see the same play. It does not matter to us if playing for 1000 or 10,000. The pro's play the same.

 

[mikeyfrost]

I felt like both guys wanted to win but this makes it weird. I saw how good Dennis was playing and how bad Ko was playing before the match so my recommendation was always to take Dennis with the games or not. Now I wonder if Ko even gave a shit at all. Frenchy could be the next big con artist, time will tell. One thing for sure he won a whole lot of money on this thing if even half of what I was told was bet on the rail with him.

 

[Daryle]

I felt like both guys wanted to win but this makes it weird. I saw how good Dennis was playing and how bad Ko was playing before the match so my recommendation was always to take Dennis with the games or not. Now I wonder if Ko even gave a shit at all. Frenchy could be the next big con artist, time will tell. One thing for sure he won a whole lot of money on this thing if even half of what I was told was bet on the rail with him.

Here's hoping the fix was not in, aka Don King style!


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[JCIN]

I was just going to ask about this. I watched many of the TAR matches, and I don't recall you or anyone else saying what, if any, amount was put up by the horses. Yes, you said the corporations put up the 10k (or whatever the amount was for each match).

I'm just playing devils advocate here, but "full disclosure" also means what the horse is putting up in a true "gambling match" and what the stakehorse is putting up. It also means if the players get paid from the stream or any other sources, besides the outright win.

When you switched to the exhibition format (which I personally thought was way better), you for sure told all the fans all the details.

After the Ko Dennis match went down, my feeling is that Frencie backed both of them, and gave the winner a prize. I don't think Ko had any sort of "backer". I am purely guessing here, from the comfort of my keyboard. :grin-square::grin-square:

There is a balance between being honest with fans and maintaining privacy for those who need it. I would also argue that in this case it was nowhere near that balance point. I remember posting how we paid players many times and explaining how the whole thing worked over and over.

I dont think a promoter has to post his books in public. But what went down here is the other end of the spectrum. It was done so poorly that even if it was legit it doesnt matter because it looks so suspect. French is the latest to try the "stable" system here. He is not doing it right. I hope he learns and gets it figured out.

The whole "Dennis is playing SVB for 50K" announcement and then a month later putting out that Dennis and SVB might be partners against Sky/Justin. It just makes no sense and makes all the matches look like exhibitions designed to get a PPV. Which would fine and awesome...just tell people what it is. I know that if Mars is involved in the SVB/Dennis match its the real deal. But just floating the fact these guys are supposed to be fighting to the death one week and partners a few weeks later is nutty to me.

As to your summary of recent events it would not surprise me in the least.

 

[JCIN]

I have never been paid or seen a player make 1 k for a stream .

You never played a PPV in the TAR studio. We paid out every player in every PPV there. Its a damn shame the time you did play there turned out like it did.

 

[RED LITE]

Personally I really don't think it makes any difference, top players are playing hard to win for the cash or for pride. I see your point but I really believe these guys play herd to win.

But that's the problem: how do we know, for sure, that they're playing hard to win?

 

[watchez]

I have never been paid or seen a player make 1 k for a stream .

Ask Jayson Shaw what he got when he played Bergman. Make sure you are sitting down first. And I know what a player is getting offered to play next month.

Plus as JCIN stated, TAR matches did under their last format.

When John French is asking pool rooms and streamers to submit offers to host and PPV matches he is involved with, I can imagine (and somewhat know) what is being offered.

 

[7forlife]

I'm confused as to why SVB and DO can't match up one week and then team up the next, what's shady about that? It's action, "hey you wanna play some?" "sure", "hey wanna team up with me in some scotch doubles? I got these guys that want to play but i want a good partner" "who is it? what do i have to put up? what's the payout? sounds cool let's do it"
Gesh players match up all the time, why can't they team up for the sake of gambling. Busty and Efren gambled i'm sure and they were also picked as partners, so what am i missing. Can someone explain for a slow fool.

 

[pooladdict]

I think I bought 97% of all TAR matches or came and saw them live. One day of this gong show put me on tilt. Between the commentating, French and just overall quality and I was done. One of the smartest things you did was going to conventional size pockets. After watching guys like Morra and Oscar struggle having 9 hours days was not in the best interest of the event.

JCIN please reconsider. Do it in a hall (keeps the monthly nut down) and only super premium matches (say 4 a year). In the words of Howard Stern...No more Bull Zhit.

Agree that conventional size pockets makes for much more entertaining matches. The problem is that very few wants to play SVB 10-ball - winner breaks with those pockets.

 

[Pfnatic]

I don't know John French.

Lucky you. Try your best to keep it that way.

He could be a great guy.

If you purely judge by the way he talks, then no...Nope.

no.

 

[SakuJack]

and you get something similar in mma when guys are from the same camp and they are hesitant to fight. Back in the 90's it's well known that some fighters would lose quickly to members of their camps when the tourney formats were widely used in UFC and other organizations.

Can you give some examples of this?