You're assuming it hasn't already... I think the goal is to get it out of total irrelevance!
Brian
Sick of all the infighting
- Thread starter Johnnyt
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You're assuming it hasn't already... I think the goal is to get it out of total irrelevance!
Brian
Everything's relative but if you are talking about spectators when you really get down to it there's no such thing as "large draw" pool players.
How many spectators at Galveston...75? How many at a million dollar IPT event....100? Can't get much bigger potential "draws" than were there. Even competing pros generally don't stay to watch finals after they've been knocked out.
Recreational pool players aren't playing because they love to "watch" pool. They are playing because they like to do something while out drinking or because they like actually "playing". There's no automatic direct correlation between enjoying playing and enjoying watching so it isn't a question of finding a way to get these untapped wells of potential money spenders to take an interest in pro pool or get them along to tournaments........that's not going to happen.
To everyone except committed enthusiasts it's a boring spectator sport and many of those committed enthusiasts aren't able to make it to most events anyway. A pool players association isn't going to be able to alter the fundamental problem that the game is mind numbingly boring for 99.99% of the world and that even the other 0.01% have lots of alternative sports and interests competing for their time and attention in this new fast paced modern world, far more so than when Minnesota Fats was around.
Furthermore ordinary recreational pool players simply aren't awed at the playing ability of pros. They see it as a very simple, easy to learn game that anyone can become competent at in a few hours. As for the non pool player they simply see it as an environment to keep their children a million miles away from and/or see pool players in general as low-life.
Try applying to a non pool player for a job involving a lot of trust and/or the handling of large sums of money and tell him your favourite outside working hours leisure pastime is playing pool down your local pool hall and see if you can finish the sentence before he says 'we'll let you know' and shunts you out the door :smile:
The thing about bowling is is that there are these big bowling alleys out there, in the right markets. I know that a lot of bowling alleys have closed down over the years, but now it seems that in many big markets, there' still one good sized place for the bowlers to play.
I have often though that what pool *really* needs to grow is have around a half dozen great pool rooms in different geographic areas. These would need to be nice, good sized rooms with standardized equipment, and room for spectators. IOW. rooms that can function as pool room, learning center for the local schools, a social event locale, AND tournament and league venue. Perhaps a room in SF, one in LA, another in Dallas, KC, St. Louis, Dayton, or Louisville, one in Florida, and another up on the northern east coast.
I think from this circuit of well designed rooms, you could grow the sport, hold tournaments for amateurs and pros, eventually get sponsorship for a tour, and maybe even get on TV. But the way the majority of rooms out there are now set up, this can't work. And carting tables from hotel to casino isn't going to work either -- those are single shot events.
Pool needs a basic infrastructure of rooms across the country, to go anywhere, IMO.
Lou Figueroa
Sad as it may be, years ago when my father was summoned to be on jury duty, they asked about his occupation and he was dismissed from jury duty as a result of being a professional pool player... even with World Titles, he was still not deemed suitable for Jury duty... which I guess could be considered a good thing though
I think they asked if he had ever "Purposely deceived someone as to the extent of his ability in order to profit from them" or something like that.... I actually kind of like that story, I guess thats what sets many poolplayers apart from the mainstream, they enjoy the "underside" that pool involves.
As if the lawyers and judges don't do the same thing, but it's OK if it's on a golf course.
RBC
Deceased
Lou,
I like the idea, but I have one big question. What is going to change, besides having a room like this here in Dallas, to bring more people to the game of pool?
The problem is that no investor or business is going to shell out the 2 million (or more!) dollars it would take to open such a room without having at least a reasonable belief that it would make money. If you look at the people playing pool right now in Dallas, they would not support a room like that. We have successful chain in Texas called Fast Eddies. They won't open a room in Dallas!
We have to figure out how to get more "Pool Enthusiasts". People who go out and play pool for fun, and expect to spend $50.00 each night doing it. Right now we have "Pool Players". People who go out and expect to make $50.00 doing it. They don't eat or drink in the rooms they hand out in. They don't want to play table time. They hound all the "Pool Enthusiasts" about gambling every time they walk through the door!
The bowling alleys here in Dallas are full of league players all week! They pay more to bowl in leagues than pool players pay for pool leagues! They also get less money back, and they are still full. Bowling obviously has something that pool doesn't. Or maybe pool has something that bowling doesn't, something that keeps them at the bowling alleys instead of the pool rooms.
Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com
I think what brings in the money is that you cater to different crowds, including the young adult set that wants to hang out all night, drink $10 martinis, and maybe have a bit of sushi (big at a bowling alley in St. Louis and D&B). Maybe day time lunch specials for the retirees (they line up at the door for this in Atlanta) and a 3C league (big in Boston and Santa Monica). A snooker table for the golf degenerates (big in LA and Florida). You also need to cater to the league crowd on Mondays and Tuesdays, that wants to drink pitchers and shots. And then there needs to be a 1pocket league on Wednesday nights, with a 14.1 league on Thursdays (maybe you feed these guys some BLTs). Fridays and Saturdays you have a waiting list
Then, a couple times a year you bring in a pro tournament that is part of a national coordinated tour under the supervision of a new national organization that runs, not only these tournaments, but also sanctions others. This organization would have responsibility for a national calender, so there aren't scheduling conflicts, and could bless events and promoters by requiring them to escrow a certain percentage of the prize fund. When this organization gives its blessing, players across the country would know, that at a minimum, the promoter is legit.
Somewhere in there you need a manager who doesn't just keep the beer stocked -- and get someone who will contact the local schools and offer instruction; make sure evening social events and private parties are successful; and, maybe gets trained a bit on how to reach out to the local media when the pros are headed to town and right at the tournaments conclusion. He also makes and enforces a rule that the "players" don't woof at the "civilians," or they get barred.
So maybe one part of the room has furniture style tables (with five inch pockets so the young exec can look like Fast Eddie) and some couches; and another part has the bar boxes with a juke box, and then a section with the Diamond Pros.
How about a nice bathroom for the girls.
I agree that financially it's stretch, but to begin, someone needs to think outside the box of what a pool room has always been.
Lou Figueroa
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I can tell you that what you're talking about is my dream. If I win the lottery (come on $150m powerball!) I'll plan on dumping about $1m or so into just such a room!
Some of the exact same things you've mentioned is in my master plan... Now, I guess I just need to go buy some tickets! Brian
I am predijuce when I make this statement so please don't be offended:wink:
Football is football - a game, Golf is golf - a game, Bowling is bowling - a game, Tennis is tennis - a game, ...........Pool is all over the board with several kinds of games, sets of rules, formats and most all tournaments are done around bracket elimination. Current games used for pool tournaments today don't provide for a measuring system for an amateur to go play after they watched a match between two pros and compare their game to a professionals game like.........Golf, Bowling and others that attract those outside sponsors everyone is looking for. How about a game where there is 20/30 players playing at the same time to shoot a high score on the final round to determine a winner.....a constantly changing leader board......each player is playing the entire field.......
Are you starting to get the picture?:grin-square:
here is what I don't really understand. When We go out on the road to do exhibitions weget crowds that exeed 200 people. thats for three hours in a place like Sturtevant Wisconsin. Notsaying anything bad about sturtevant bit its not a big place. Thats withjust two top pros. So I guess youcan get more people there it mayjust bea format thing to make it interesting. to the casual player. Ipersonallylovethe Mosconi Cup and will watch that more that the US Open final.
The other thing is we can never really get much more people at a arena to spectate cos its hars to see the game from afar I found myself watching a match in Galvaston and could not follow the game cos I could not see what balls were what. So watching live is tome always going tobe limited.
Before Griffin chews my ass I will getback on topic. What is exactly stopping Mark Griffin from doing this? I am not knocking him or putting him on the spot but there has to be reasons that he is not jumping into this full force. It is as most of us all agree what the sport needs not only for the players but for the fans. I guess it would boild down to the following.
1) Money
2) player and fan support
3) Industry support
4) promoter support
5) Knowing that you may be spending time, money and resourses on something that the players will not support for one reason or another.
I think if it is packaged right and the players to begin withcan see the benefit long and short term they will get on board. This would have to encompass things like a optional benefit plan, some kind of tournament insurance in case a promoter does not come through, and the sactioning fee actually going towards what it should and that is making sure that the money for the players is there and can't be touched and help in promoting and marketing the events. Not just going into the organizers back pocket and slapping a logo on the events posters. There is so much to do and planning to make this a great product and organization. Just the set up before anyone is told about it is prob $20kor morejust tohave someone work on it with no guarentee it will work. Anyway, my vote forwhat it is worth is still with Griffin tobe the man for the job or at least behind the job.
here is what I don't really understand. When We go out on the road to do exhibitions weget crowds that exeed 200 people. thats for three hours in a place like Sturtevant Wisconsin. Notsaying anything bad about sturtevant bit its not a big place. Thats withjust two top pros. So I guess youcan get more people there it mayjust bea format thing to make it interesting. to the casual player. Ipersonallylovethe Mosconi Cup and will watch that more that the US Open final.
The other thing is we can never really get much more people at a arena to spectate cos its hars to see the game from afar I found myself watching a match in Galvaston and could not follow the game cos I could not see what balls were what. So watching live is tome always going tobe limited.
Before Griffin chews my ass I will getback on topic. What is exactly stopping Mark Griffin from doing this? I am not knocking him or putting him on the spot but there has to be reasons that he is not jumping into this full force. It is as most of us all agree what the sport needs not only for the players but for the fans. I guess it would boild down to the following.
1) Money
2) player and fan support
3) Industry support
4) promoter support
5) Knowing that you may be spending time, money and resourses on something that the players will not support for one reason or another.
I think if it is packaged right and the players to begin withcan see the benefit long and short term they will get on board. This would have to encompass things like a optional benefit plan, some kind of tournament insurance in case a promoter does not come through, and the sactioning fee actually going towards what it should and that is making sure that the money for the players is there and can't be touched and help in promoting and marketing the events. Not just going into the organizers back pocket and slapping a logo on the events posters. There is so much to do and planning to make this a great product and organization. Just the set up before anyone is told about it is prob $20kor morejust tohave someone work on it with no guarentee it will work. Anyway, my vote forwhat it is worth is still with Griffin tobe the man for the job or at least behind the job
The BCA points formula seems to limit "pro" tournaments to events with a purse of $40,000 or more. Entry fees and added money are not mentioned. Shouldn't the points formulas attempt to incentivize an increase in the added money to entry fee ratio to maximize player profits?
Does the BCA charge dues to the players to allow them to participate in their rankings and charge sanctioning fees to tournament directors?
Does the BCA charge dues to the players to allow them to participate in their rankings and charge sanctioning fees to tournament directors?
There needs to be two things happen for pool to survivie.
1. More people playing
2. More places to play
Without these, pool will not go anywhere. Ever wonder why the other sports are popular? I have and there are two things that come to mind.
1. Sports such as football, baseball, soccer, golf and so on are played in schools and after schools, and have PEE WEE leagues and such. Wouldn't a inter school pool league be nice. My daughter, her serinor year, was able to take a bowling class and I wonder why not pool also.
2. Cites have sports faculites for these sports and but few have any pool equipment. Why not?
Unless there is a increase in the playing base, pool will not go anywhere.
And if there are no family friendly type places to play, the player base isn't gonna get any bigger.
There needs to be a organization that looks for the needs of pool in general and not just for those that want to just make money.
1. More people playing
2. More places to play
Without these, pool will not go anywhere. Ever wonder why the other sports are popular? I have and there are two things that come to mind.
1. Sports such as football, baseball, soccer, golf and so on are played in schools and after schools, and have PEE WEE leagues and such. Wouldn't a inter school pool league be nice. My daughter, her serinor year, was able to take a bowling class and I wonder why not pool also.
2. Cites have sports faculites for these sports and but few have any pool equipment. Why not?
Unless there is a increase in the playing base, pool will not go anywhere.
And if there are no family friendly type places to play, the player base isn't gonna get any bigger.
There needs to be a organization that looks for the needs of pool in general and not just for those that want to just make money.
Pool has a bad rep for being played in seedy places by shady people who smoke and drink alcholic beverages and hustle and gamble and sandbag and otherwise act in an antisocial manner. Bowling and all other sports of course have none of these elements and are generally associated with going to church and clean living and scholastic achievement. :wink:
Sad as it may be, years ago when my father was summoned to be on jury duty, they asked about his occupation and he was dismissed from jury duty as a result of being a professional pool player... even with World Titles, he was still not deemed suitable for Jury duty... which I guess could be considered a good thing though
I think they asked if he had ever "Purposely deceived someone as to the extent of his ability in order to profit from them" or something like that.... I actually kind of like that story, I guess thats what sets many poolplayers apart from the mainstream, they enjoy the "underside" that pool involves.
As if the lawyers and judges don't do the same thing, but it's OK if it's on a golf course.
I'm sure if we all put our heads together and concentrated real hard we'd be able to come up with one or two pool pros less competent to serve on a jury than your Dad :smile:
Interesting story, thanks.
Your comment about the spectators being too far from the table is dead on, imo. The Camel guys said that fire codes make them leave a lot of room between the tables and the bleachers. We need some way around that.
Mark Griffin has imo jumped into this full force. But who wants to try to qualify for a tournament that would'nt fill up if it were open? There has to be some decent added money for a tournament before you will have very many players spending money to try and qualify, and then spending more money to attend the main event.
The High schools in my district even offer bass fishing!
I have started a billiards club at the Jr High level.
Sarah Rousey told me she tried to start one here and got laughed at.
I was only able to get it in because I work there. I am getting more support from teachers because they see the application to math, science and Pe.
There are several people Earl Munson in TX., Roy Pastor in Ma. and others who are getting organized pool to our youth.
The BEF and the ACS both have programs but they need money and help.
If you want big things you have to think big and we need to support and promote pool. I was taught "you have to lead by example".
If you say you are going to do something then you need to follow through.
If a tourament says the prize $ is XXX then that is what it should be and if not then you don't support it.
If you keep doing the same thing why do you think the ending is going to be any differrent?
I would encourage everyone to get involved in promoting our sport, make a donation to the BEF on my site (under links page) or save the paypal fees and send them a check.
Give your time, give a lesson, help someone learn to love this game.
You have to start at the foundation and work up!
You can't build a house from the top down!
Mark
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This isn't really a true statment. Look at some of the happening in sports at the pro level. First comes to mind is Micheal Vick. Then there's the steriod thingie and so on.
Thats just an example, but there are more, just watch the sports news.
It isn't that pool has a bad rep, but just where it is played doesn't help.
This is why you have to get room owners involved. They can not join the orginzation, that gonna help grow pool, unless their room meet certain standards. Sorta a seal of approval.