Sighting (not aiming) thread

dr_dave

dr_dave

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In a recent thread concerning double-the-distance, contact-to-contact-point, and the CTE aiming systems, the topic of sighting came up. Judging from the response to Gene's PERFECT AIM stuff, sighting seems like an extremely important topic. I don't recall this ever being discussed very much here (even in Gene's huge thread). Here are my questions that I hope will create some interesting and useful discussion and debate:

Once you have determined your line of aim, or while you are determining your final line of aim, where are your eyes?

Do you site through the center of the CB?
Do you sight along the contact-point-to-contact-point line?
Do you change where you sight for different shots (e.g., thin cuts, vs. full hits)? If so, how and why?
Do you change your sighting when using English? If so, how and why?

By "where do you sight," I mean: where do you align your "vision center," which may or may not be through your dominant eye? By "vision center," I mean the head alignment that allows you to see a center-ball straight-in shot as straight, with the tip appearing to be at the center of the CB. For some people, this might be with the cue under their dominant eye. For others, it might be with the cue under their nose, or somewhere else between their eyes (or even outside of the eyes?). For more info and resources on this topic, see dominant eye summary and resources.

I look forward to reading what different people think about sighting and the questions above. An obvious option is to always align your "vision center" with the center of the CB, regardless of the type of shot, but it doesn't seem like all people agree with this. What do you and others think about this? I hope all of the instructors and players out there will get involved with some of these discussions on this important topic. I am hoping we can come to some sort of consensus on what "best practices" and/or "good options" are for sighting different types of shots.

I look forward to the discussion,
Dave
 
quote from Clark_the_Shark from the previous thread:

1) I use contact point to contact point for shots that are not very clear to see, such as backwards cuts, or cuts where I cannot see the target pocket and the OB in the same line of vision.

2) I use aiming through the center of the cue ball for 0 degree cuts to just about 1/2 ball.

3) Answered in above 2 answers. Also, for fairly thin to extremely thin cuts, I use contact point to contact point, or look at the edge of the cue ball and try to line that up with the edge of the OB.

4) I view the shot directly through my eyes to the OB, REGARDLESS if there is English on the ball. This is the most complicated step to explain as I have not really analyzed this as much. Because I use some combination of BHE, or Swiping on the last stroke, (2 DIFFERENT METHODS), or just getting down into the shot with the English already in place (already pivoted about the pivot point). But my aiming line is ALWAYS straight from my eyes to the CB to the OB, one straight line. I DO NOT use parallel shift methods for applying English, which is important for my next point.

So... what #4 really means is that my stroke is not always straight through, but my eyesight is. The only time it is, is when the shot needs no English. As soon as English is applied, the cue is pivoted about the pivot point but the eyes stay at the aim point. Now, just to be clear... my aim point DOES change depending on the "type" of English applied, either thicker/thinner for inside English or outside English depending on the speed & squerve.

dr_dave said:
In a recent thread concerning double-the-distance, contact-to-contact-point, and the CTE aiming systems, the topic of sighting came up. Judging from the response to Gene's PERFECT AIM stuff, sighting seems like an extremely important topic. I don't recall this ever being discussed very much here (even in Gene's huge thread). Here are my questions that I hope will create some interesting and useful discussion and debate:

Once you have determined your line of aim, or while you are determining your final line of aim, where are your eyes?

Do you site through the center of the CB?
Do you sight along the contact-point-to-contact-point line?
Do you change where you sight for different shots (e.g., thin cuts, vs. full hits)? If so, how and why?
Do you change your sighting when using English? If so, how and why?

By "where do you sight," I mean: where do you align your "vision center," which may or may not be through your dominant eye? By "vision center," I mean the head alignment that allows you to see a center-ball straight-in shot as straight, with the tip appearing to be at the center of the CB. For some people, this might be with the cue under their dominant eye. For others, it might be with the cue under their nose, or somewhere else between their eyes (or even outside of the eyes?). For more info and resources on this topic, see dominant eye summary and resources.

I look forward to reading what different people think about sighting and the questions above. An obvious option is to always align your "vision center" with the center of the CB, regardless of the type of shot, but it doesn't seem like all people agree with this. What do you and others think about this? I hope all of the instructors and players out there will get involved with some of these discussions on this important topic. I am hoping we can come to some sort of consensus on what "best practices" and/or "good options" are for sighting different types of shots.

I look forward to the discussion,
Dave
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Hi dave ............Geno............

dr_dave said:
In a recent thread concerning double-the-distance, contact-to-contact-point, and the CTE aiming systems, the topic of sighting came up. Judging from the response to Gene's PERFECT AIM stuff, sighting seems like an extremely important topic. I don't recall this ever being discussed very much here (even in Gene's huge thread). Here are my questions that I hope will create some interesting and useful discussion and debate:

Once you have determined your line of aim, or while you are determining your final line of aim, where are your eyes?

Do you site through the center of the CB?
Do you sight along the contact-point-to-contact-point line?
Do you change where you sight for different shots (e.g., thin cuts, vs. full hits)? If so, how and why?
Do you change your sighting when using English? If so, how and why?

By "where do you sight," I mean: where do you align your "vision center," which may or may not be through your dominant eye? By "vision center," I mean the head alignment that allows you to see a center-ball straight-in shot as straight, with the tip appearing to be at the center of the CB. For some people, this might be with the cue under their dominant eye. For others, it might be with the cue under their nose, or somewhere else between their eyes (or even outside of the eyes?). For more info and resources on this topic, see dominant eye summary and resources.

I look forward to reading what different people think about sighting and the questions above. An obvious option is to always align your "vision center" with the center of the CB, regardless of the type of shot, but it doesn't seem like all people agree with this. What do you and others think about this? I hope all of the instructors and players out there will get involved with some of these discussions on this important topic. I am hoping we can come to some sort of consensus on what "best practices" and/or "good options" are for sighting different types of shots.

I look forward to the discussion,
Dave
Click to expand...

Hi there Dave,
There are 4 different types of sighting or aiming. You need to aim different on all 3 types. The thin cut. The straight shot. The cut shots inbetween these and just shooting at a spot on the table with the cue ball like a kick. Each type of aiming is different for each one of these types of shots. That's why one way will work with straight in and not for thin cuts while one will work for medium cuts and not for kicks. A player needs to know which to use on each type of shot.
 
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I sight through the center of the cue ball except on very thin cuts (I guestimate 75 degrees or more) where the object ball is close to the cue ball, say within three feet. On those shots I find myself sighting from contact point to contact point - in other words, on these short thin cuts my line of vision does not go through the center of the cue ball but rather goes from close to one edge of the cue ball to close to one edge of the object ball. These shots are usually very thin cuts along the rail. On all other shots my sighting is through the center of the cue ball.

I don't change my sighting when using english - except on the short thin cuts mentioned above, it still goes through the center of the cue ball and is therefore not directly over the cue stick.

The approach above is what has always come natural to me. I didn't consciously adopt it.

Edited to add - I have a very dominant eye and the cue is more or less directly under it, but I don't consciously try to place the cue stick there. Except on those contact point to contact point shots, the cue stick goes where I see it pointing straight to the target.
 
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A roughly written, but well thought out work on this subject, is Richard Kranicki's "Answers to a Pool Player's Prayers".

It is the straight dope. Covers the sighting spectrum. If you can assimilate his writing style, you will understand why Ralf cocks his head the way he does, why Neils does not, and why anyone with two eyes might do well to not really believe their eyes.

I've pretty much read what is in the scientific literature, and what the gunners and archers have to offer, but for pool, it is the most exhaustive work over I've seen sighting get.

And, it can be had for more like $15 than $80.

Surely Doctor Dave has read this.
 
genomachino said:
Perfect Aim is the way your eyes aim naturally or sight. They are both the same as far as I'm concerned. I just show people how to do this successfully.
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So people should just do what comes naturally? It seems easy for people to determine their natural "vision center" for a center-ball-hit straight-in shot, but do you think a person should shift their "vision center" for cut shots, even if it doesn't come naturally? What about thin hits? I know you don't want to give away your secrets while you are still doing well with sales, but I'm hoping you can still share some of your opinions. I'm sure people would appreciate it since you seem to have some good ideas on the topic.

Regards,
Dave

PS: I like you as a person and I'm glad you are having great success with your product, but I think the frequent "advertising" is a little inappropriate for this forum. I like reading your stories and how things are going for you, and I look forward to reading and discussing your ideas at some point, but I don't like the numerous sales pitches. I hope you don't take offense at this. I just think you should be more aware of how some people might perceive some of your posts.
 
I don't know if this is what you are referring to but, I sight while standing to right of the line of the shot. This is partially to aligne myself properly when getting down on the shot, but probably also due to the whole dominant eye thing. I think it is probably more important to utilize your dominant eye in the initial aiming stages, rather than when you are already set in your stance.

I also stand back about 3-4 feet from the table so that I have a clear view of the angle. Every table gives off a shadow that extends 3-4 feet out from the table due to the lighting, as a rule of thumb I stand outside of it while I am sighting.

I sight the same way on every shot.
 
I appreciate your post. This is the kind of stuff I was hoping to see. I also hope the knowledgeable and experienced instructors out there will also share their views on the topic.

Thanks,
Dave

Rich93 said:
I sight through the center of the cue ball except on very thin cuts (I guestimate 75 degrees or more) where the object ball is close to the cue ball, say within three feet. On those shots I find myself sighting from contact point to contact point - in other words, on these short thin cuts my line of vision does not go through the center of the cue ball but rather goes from close to one edge of the cue ball to close to one edge of the object ball. These shots are usually very thin cuts along the rail. On all other shots my sighting is through the center of the cue ball.

I don't change my sighting when using english - except on the short thin cuts mentioned above, it still goes through the center of the cue ball and is therefore not directly over the cue stick.

The approach above is what has always come natural to me. I didn't consciously adopt it.

Edited to add - I have a very dominant eye and the cue is more or less directly under it, but I don't consciously try to place the cue stick there. Except on those contact point to contact point shots, the cue stick goes where I see it pointing straight to the target.
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Thank you. I don't have that yet. I will check it out.

Regards,
Dave

Dead Crab said:
A roughly written, but well thought out work on this subject, is Richard Kranicki's "Answers to a Pool Player's Prayers".

It is the straight dope. Covers the sighting spectrum. If you can assimilate his writing style, you will understand why Ralf cocks his head the way he does, why Neils does not, and why anyone with two eyes might do well to not really believe their eyes.

I've pretty much read what is in the scientific literature, and what the gunners and archers have to offer, but for pool, it is the most exhaustive work over I've seen sighting get.

And, it can be had for more like $15 than $80.

Surely Doctor Dave has read this.
Click to expand...
 
By "sighting" I am referring to where your "vision center" is while you are down on the shot. For some people, this might be the same "sighting" they use when "aiming while standing" to get aligned. Thank you for describing your "aiming while standing" routine.

Where do you position your dominant eye while down on the shot? And do you vary this position with the type of shot?

Regards,
Dave

Cameron Smith said:
I don't know if this is what you are referring to but, I sight while standing to right of the line of the shot. This is partially to aligne myself properly when getting down on the shot, but probably also due to the whole dominant eye thing. I think it is probably more important to utilize your dominant eye in the initial aiming stages, rather than when you are already set in your stance.

I also stand back about 3-4 feet from the table so that I have a clear view of the angle. Every table gives off a shadow that extends 3-4 feet out from the table due to the lighting, as a rule of thumb I stand outside of it while I am sighting.

I sight the same way on every shot.
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My two cents is that Joe Tucker's third eye helped me to sight properly on a straight-in shot (and it's cheap and no secrets necessary!) -- now I know I need to line up just slightly away from center towards my dominant eye. Whether I need to change that for other shots for optimal results, I don't really know, but I find myself doing that sometimes anyway.
 
CONT FROM OTHER THREAD:

There are a lot of edges to the OB...NOT 2. The moment your head moves...."NEW EDGE."

There's a definitive technique in determining the "outermost edge" --- but it's something I don't wanna get into.

As far as "crashing the vertical planes" goes.... there's a LOT to talk about here. Based on your response in the other thread.... this is a totally new concept to you. You do not have to always stroke down your cue line. Most of my shots, I do not.

This is something I discovered by accident--- when Hal told me to "just whack it and you'll see". I never did see until I looked beyond the apparent.... which is something many people choose not to do.

All I can say is I hope to God someday Hal gets voted into the Hall of Fame for his knowledge. For me, he literally rewrote the book on pool. He lit up the dark side of the moon. His info is such that you can spend a few lifetimes playing pool.... and NEVER stumble upon this info.

Crashing vertical planes is a term I coined-- as the few I've spoken to couldn't describe it--- but that's exactly what it is. Your OB is a vertical plane and your CB is a vertical plane--- you replace the OB VP with the CB VP.

I hope this doesn't keep people up at night.

Anyways, I don't think you should sight through the center of the CB ever...but that's just me. I knew that before perfect aim.

Whenever I meet Gene in person, I'm going to show him that he stumbled on a CTE outer-edge limit. The only thing he does is feel the fraction (which he doesn't have to).

Your eyes aren't meant to sight straight down a line (many illusions). If you look across a line--- it's like focusing a camera....much easier to see :)
 
According to Scott Lee during his lessons he says that the "Dominant Eye" stuff is "not as useful as people say". He says that dominant eye is only useful at arms length and that once you get down on the shot, the cue ball is further than arms length and the OB is WAY further than that. He says for all intents and purposes, it doesn't matter where you put your cue under your head, SO LONG AS that area is where you "perceive" a straight line.

In other words, no matter where you put the cue, if you can hit the length of the table and have the cue ball come back to hit your tip, then that is where you perceive a straight line. That's why it's not as useful and that's what he teaches.
 
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I second the Joe tucker third eye trainer. I have been working with a woman who lost sight in her dominate eye. She could not find center ball and has a real problem with the depth perception. She thinks she is 1/4 inch from the cue ball when actually she is 2 1/2 inches from it and off center. The third eye is helping find center and repetition is getting her to setup closer to the CB.
It is definitely a challenge.
Mark
www.teachmepool.com
 
SpiderWebComm said:
Crashing vertical planes is a term I coined-- as the few I've spoken to couldn't describe it--- but that's exactly what it is. Your OB is a vertical plane and your CB is a vertical plane--- you replace the OB VP with the CB VP.
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These "vertical planes" where are they pointing to? Does the plane extend from the OB to the Pocket? The CB to the OB? The CB to the pocket? The shooter to the OB? Or the shooter to the CB? If it's the last two, does it depend on where the shooter is standing?
 
pool101 said:
I second the Joe tucker third eye trainer. I have been working with a woman who lost sight in her dominate eye. She could not find center ball and has a real problem with the depth perception. She thinks she is 1/4 inch from the cue ball when actually she is 2 1/2 inches from it and off center. The third eye is helping find center and repetition is getting her to setup closer to the CB.
It is definitely a challenge.
Mark
www.teachmepool.com
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Most of what I learned about perception/illusions, I learned from Joe. He def opened my eyes to it.
 
Clark_the_Shark said:
These "vertical planes" where are they pointing to? Does the plane extend from the OB to the Pocket? The CB to the OB? The CB to the pocket? The shooter to the OB? Or the shooter to the CB? If it's the last two, does it depend on where the shooter is standing?
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The planes are perpendicular to your field of vision, regardless of your reference line (ETC, CTE, 90-90, 90-half) or your position to these lines. There is a CB plane and an OB plane. Your position in relation to these lines is determined by the "outermost edge." Think of each plane as a sheet of glass coming out of the table. The CB is a sticker on a plane and the OB is a sticker on a plane.

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dr_dave said:
By "sighting" I am referring to where your "vision center" is while you are down on the shot. For some people, this might be the same "sighting" they use when "aiming while standing" to get aligned. Thank you for describing your "aiming while standing" routine.

Where do you position your dominant eye while down on the shot? And do you vary this position with the type of shot?

Regards,
Dave
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I see, I misunderstood.

The cue is directly under my chin and centred. I am not favoring either eye. I don't change this on any shot. I am always looking straight ahead down the line of the cue, as I believe people (or at least I) tend to stroke towards whatever they are looking at if they aren't cognizant of what they are doing.
 
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