Siming Chen

So far, I’m enjoying this thread immensely....this is why I read AZ.
I don’t agree with everybody completely....and I don’t disagree completely either.

And let’s give Jay Helfert some kudos here....
...he predicted this Siming phenomena years ago.

Kudos to Jay Helfert for making us aware of this, back then, up and comer.
 
Well now that we've debated the endless nature vs nurture debate for the thousandth time on here....

Does anyone know Simings schedule, and if she will be playing any other men soon. The match with Donny was amazing. If they play again, I'd still bet on Donny... The match with Efren was so fun to watch as well.

Is she playing in Pat's international 9 ball event this fall? Is she playing in Matchroom's US Open next spring? Is she playing in DCC main events? Or, DCC 10 ball challenge!? Does Roy have her set up with any exhibition/gambling matches? etc, etc.

I see a great opportunity for Siming to help popularize the entire pool industry, with the battle of the sexes, if its promoted well.

She is signed up for Vivian's Tornado Open event in New Jersey in November. I would not be surprised if Roy is helping arrange other plans.
 
Actually no they won't line up to see her that's already been proven it's got a nitch and some interest among the pool world but almost zero interest past that ,,
It's shocking to me how much some people over value pool as a spectators sport ,,

1

100% correct
Jason
 
Better hand eye coordination? Watch women shoot free throws any level of basketball.Jean Balukas did shoot at their level .She was so good they (NOT ALL) did not want or in many cases let her play.How scary could or would she of been ?
 
Wow, Jay picked up on this 7 years ago.
He’s a great judge of talent.

Yeah, that Jay... we need to have him stuffed and placed in a pool museum somewhere. Yes, he's THAT good. :yeah: :grin: :yeah:

If there were agents in pool, Jay would be our Swifty Lazar!
 
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All your points have already been addressed in this thread. In summary, even IF we allow the copout of "participation rate" as a reason why women underperform men in virtually every competitive endeavour that does not require muscles, in the end, the participation rate itself likely indicates a genetic difference between men and women,

As in, women are genetically predisposed against aggression and competition, putting them as a group at an inherent disadvantage against men. After all.. Just TRY to prevent young men/boys from competing against each other.

Buuuuuuutttt.. given you blocked me on Facebook, I expect that you will similarly refuse to consider these ideas that differ from your own, because that's just the type of guy you are, John...

Short Bus Russ

who are you?
 
Maybe I'm being selfish, but I feel like the whole pool community is wasting the biggest opportunity to raise the game's popularity we've had in years, if we don't pit Siming vs all the men players.

We need her in all the men's tournaments. In Pat's make it happen series. In Darrens WPS. At the US Open. At Pat's international Open. And to advertise all of these events with modern social media. Fargorate can be part of the social media blitz.

Siming IS THE DRAW to make pool more popular. She might be the new Efren, in fan appeal. If she is as good as Fargo says she is, every banger male pool player will line up for miles to watch her attempt to beat the male pro's. We have a great opportunity here!

Completely disagree. The premise that pool can be made more popular if it's a battle of the sexes presupposes that non-pool players care about high -evel pool in the first place. The fact is that most people don't even know that pool is played professionally.

So Siming's matches wouldn't increase the amount of pool played. Male players might be interested in watching the matches so there might be decent numbers for streamers but I doubt it will be much more than any other high level matches.

The overriding theme though is that it would be setting her up to fail. Take any male pro and pit them against other male pros at the same skill level and they will NOT dominate those other players. They will win some and lose some. Pit a 790 against an 820 and the 820 WILL win the majority of the matches but not all of them. Put a 790 against a 760 and the 790 will win the majority but not all of the matches.

So making it a battle of the sexes basically is pinning all the hopes for the female gender on one good player. The whole point of Fargo Ratings is to determine skill level regardless of gender. So there is virtually no chance that a male 790 and a female 790 are going to play dramatically differently just because it's a male vs. female match-up if both play to their rating.

Unless the male has ego problems and way underperforms because he is facing a strong woman. This is a real issue because the male is expected to carry the torch for the male and may face or think he will face ridicule for losing to a woman. This is the social pressure aspect which is intangible and hard to predict the effect of on performance.

But if the male is able to focus just on playing and is not bothered by the social expectations/stigmas and the same for the woman then all that's left is performance and two players of equal rating will most likely be extremely close.

So, yeah it would be cool to Siming play but there is no chance that any series of such matches would have much impact on pool's popularity. We have had high profile men/women matches in the past and they have all not resulted in any measurable influence on pool's popularity.

At the end of the day, in my opinion, the ONLY people who like to claim online that women are inferior to men in pool JUST BECAUSE they are women are people who won't get up and play a woman who is rated higher than them and bet their own playing even. They won't EVER put their money where their mouthes are and challenge higher rated women players to play for anything significant, if at all.

Real male players, the ones who TRULY know how to play, know full well that gender is meaningless and the only result that matters is what happens on the table. They know that every PERSON has a skill level and that how well a person does in any match is directly a result of their skill. So male players who understand this match-up accordingly. They ask for weight from women players when they know they need it. They offer weight when they know they have to.

This is why you DON'T see a bunch of 700 speed men out there barking at the 750+ women trying to match up even. They see very clearly what skills are displayed and know very clearly that they face tough competitiors if they were to try to match up even.
 
This short bus russ guy can get played. I don't know what his fargo rate is but if he wants to play any woman that is 100 fargo points above him for ANY amount up to $100,000 with a minimum of $10,000 in a race to 100 I will back the woman.

I am confident that he won't want to try and prove his superiority in that situation. And yes, I consider it to be a LOCK that he cannot win with a 100 point ratings difference. But since he believes that men are superior to women maybe he thinks that he can overcome the ratings difference.

Any woman that is established at 50 points above him I will back for $5000 a set in races to 25 with a minimum of 3 sets.

I will be in Las Vegas for a month starting next week and am available to back these matches if he wants to play. If he posts the money in advance I will pay for his flight and hotel.

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No, I am not interested in a protracted nature/nurture hunter/gatherer debate. My ONLY point here is that I believe that Mike Page and his partner have created the most accurate skill rating that we have ever seen in pool and I am confident enough to bet AGAINST this guy ONLY on the basis of Fargo Ratings if HE steps up to play even with no handicap against women who are rated above him.

I firmly believe that he WILL NOT take me up on this offer but if he does then we can see if Fargo Ratings bears out in the matches he agrees to play.
 
This short bus russ guy can get played. I don't know what his fargo rate is but if he wants to play any woman that is 100 fargo points above him for ANY amount up to $100,000 with a minimum of $10,000 in a race to 100 I will back the woman.

I am confident that he won't want to try and prove his superiority in that situation. And yes, I consider it to be a LOCK that he cannot win with a 100 point ratings difference. But since he believes that men are superior to women maybe he thinks that he can overcome the ratings difference.

Any woman that is established at 50 points above him I will back for $5000 a set in races to 25 with a minimum of 3 sets.

I will be in Las Vegas for a month starting next week and am available to back these matches if he wants to play. If he posts the money in advance I will pay for his flight and hotel.

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No, I am not interested in a protracted nature/nurture hunter/gatherer debate. My ONLY point here is that I believe that Mike Page and his partner have created the most accurate skill rating that we have ever seen in pool and I am confident enough to bet AGAINST this guy ONLY on the basis of Fargo Ratings if HE steps up to play even with no handicap against women who are rated above him.

I firmly believe that he WILL NOT take me up on this offer but if he does then we can see if Fargo Ratings bears out in the matches he agrees to play.

His flight might be expensive. He's in Germany now... used to be in CO, just like you.
 
This short bus russ guy can get played. I don't know what his fargo rate is but if he wants to play any woman that is 100 fargo points above him for ANY amount up to $100,000 with a minimum of $10,000 in a race to 100 I will back the woman.

I think the ShortBuss plays really strong.

Check out the way he describes himself:

I don't get out much either, I just know that when I have my own table, I play a lot better, and it opens up the possibility of actually taking a pro scalp once in a while if I become a little more systematic in my practice. I ran a 4 pack against Joey Gray at DCC when the races were to 7, but lost, due to practicing too much on a funky Red Label Diamond. Jumped straight up out of my stroke while running the fifth rack, because I got too thin, and all the muscle memory from my Red Label told me the CB was coming off the rail like a rocket.

Same year, I had John Morra down 2-1 in the One Pocket (the very next match after he won the Banks), and lost, for the same reason. I would have crushed him in the set if I had actually been practicing on a Blue Label. I couldn't make a cross corner to save my life... And I forced multiple opportunities to do so in the last two games.
 
His flight might be expensive. He's in Germany now... used to be in CO, just like you.

If he bets the minimum I will be ok with the expense.



I think the ShortBuss plays really strong.

Check out the way he describes himself:

As long as he has an established FargoRating he can get played. Fargo Ratings are based on performance records and not one's own estimation of one's speed. I have run five racks against a pro player as well once in my life and lost that set 11-5.

In 2009 Karen Corr went up against Liu Sha Sha and went out to a 5-1 lead I think. Liu then ran 5 or six racks to pass Karen and went on to win the world title.

When you can do that against the world's elite under that pressure then you are part of that elite. It doesn't matter if you can do it once in a hundred or a thousand attempts, you have to be able to come with it when the pressure is on.

I am 100% sure that Russ does not have that kind of firepower. Especially when there is the additional pressure of possibly losing to a woman.
 
This short bus russ guy can get played. I don't know what his fargo rate is but if he wants to play any woman that is 100 fargo points above him for ANY amount up to $100,000 with a minimum of $10,000 in a race to 100 I will back the woman.

Wow.. I see you're your usual nitty self, eh John? I don't seem to remember arguing against the validity of the Fargorate system, so not sure where all the swelling up is coming from. So, basically, you only wanna bet when there is a mortal lock.

Me too. If I am at Derby again this year, you're guaranteed some $300.00 a game One Pocket, if you want it. You can personally get a taste of how well a working man can play if someone talks enough shit to him. My Fargo rate is right there for anyone to check. I don't seem to see yours, but if you can play in the low 600s, you're prolly relatively safe. I have no fantasy that I could beat Siming Chen, but I got more than enough in the tank to beat you, judging by the looks of that action match with Lou I watched.

And let me be clear. It wasn't a matter of stroke. You just simply shot some of the dumbest One Pocket I've ever seen. I actually think Lou was laying down on you a bit, once he got his nerves under him a bit.
 
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If he bets the minimum I will be ok with the expense.





As long as he has an established FargoRating he can get played. Fargo Ratings are based on performance records and not one's own estimation of one's speed. I have run five racks against a pro player as well once in my life and lost that set 11-5.

In 2009 Karen Corr went up against Liu Sha Sha and went out to a 5-1 lead I think. Liu then ran 5 or six racks to pass Karen and went on to win the world title.

When you can do that against the world's elite under that pressure then you are part of that elite. It doesn't matter if you can do it once in a hundred or a thousand attempts, you have to be able to come with it when the pressure is on.

I am 100% sure that Russ does not have that kind of firepower. Especially when there is the additional pressure of possibly losing to a woman.

I think we’re a little off-track here, JB....
...Russ has a considered opinion, whether any of us disagree or not.
I have seen backers and sidebettors that can handicap a pool match wel....
....and can’t hit the end rail themselves.

On the pound for pound boxing argument, I have always argued for Ali over Sugar Ray
Robinson....I say pound for pound works both ways.....
....If I fought any pro boxer, they’d turn me into a punching bag....
...but my boxing opinion can be valid.
 
It's crazy how far we have come when having the opinion that men (on average) have a physical advantage over women when it comes to pool puts you under the microscope.

Also, some are reading too much into the Donny vs Siming match. A large part of Donny's FargoRating is based on the fact that he breaks the balls better than most players around his skill level and in that match he broke poorly.

Win or lose, I would love to see him play her again.
 
It's crazy how far we have come when having the opinion that men (on average) have a physical advantage over women when it comes to pool puts you under the microscope.

Also, some are reading too much into the Donny vs Siming match. A large part of Donny's FargoRating is based on the fact that he breaks the balls better than most players around his skill level and in that match he broke poorly.

Win or lose, I would love to see him play her again.

Ditto. This time, in a race to 100. But that said, I still think it would be close, either way. She is phenomenal.
 
Wow.. I see you're your usual nitty self, eh John? I don't seem to remember arguing against the validity of the Fargorate system, so not sure where all the swelling up is coming from. So, basically, you only wanna bet when there is a mortal lock.

Me too. If I am at Derby again this year, you're guaranteed some $300.00 a game One Pocket, if you want it. You can personally get a taste of how well a working man can play if someone talks enough shit to him. My Fargo rate is right there for anyone to check. I don't seem to see yours, but if you can play in the low 600s, you're prolly relatively safe. I have no fantasy that I could beat Siming Chen, but I got more than enough in the tank to beat you, judging by the looks of that action match with Lou I watched.

And let me be clear. It wasn't a matter of stroke. You just simply shot some of the dumbest One Pocket I've ever seen. I actually think Lou was laying down on you a bit, once he got his nerves under him a bit.

Yawn.

Let's see if I can translate this......

blah blah blah blah blah......... I can't beat women rated above me.......blah blah blah blah.....I can beat you.....blah blah blah blah blah.....Lou.
 
It's crazy how far we have come when having the opinion that men (on average) have a physical advantage over women when it comes to pool puts you under the microscope.

Also, some are reading too much into the Donny vs Siming match. A large part of Donny's FargoRating is based on the fact that he breaks the balls better than most players around his skill level and in that match he broke poorly.

Win or lose, I would love to see him play her again.

As Mike Page explained somewhere else regarding strengths and weaknesses it's the combination of variables that make a player have the skill level that he or she has. A player can be a strong breaker but maybe a weaker banker or vice versa and have the same rating.

Perhaps Siming ALSO played under her rating in that match so if Donny's break had been better and Siming hadn't uncharacteristically missed several easy shots in the match then the score might have been the same.

Mike is also extremely clear that in any given series of games between any two people it's possible to play WAY over one's rating or WAY under one's rating.

For example if I play SVB a race to ten and win 10-2 then I have played at 800 speed and he has played at 400 speed for those 12 games between us. However if that 10-2 score comes in the middle of a race to 100 where I lose 80-20 then the performance rating for those 100 games is reversed.

So at the moment Donny and Siming have played 28 games and the score is 15-13. That's currently in line with their respective ratings. More games (data) will show us whether or not the ratings are accurate between them within the margin of error or whether they are way off. I lean towards accurate.
 
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