Siming Chen

[De420MadHatter]

Doesnt matter what the highest woman finish was, none of those women were her speed. Whats so hard to understand about this??? This thread is filled with stupidity.

Why so butthurt that a woman plays better than EVERYBODY on here except Berg?
Jason

In the last 3 days I have watched her play in 6 or 7 matches on you tube, including the recent Worlds. Several things that really stuck out to me about her.
1. She seems to have a very strong focus.
2. Her temperament seemed on point. I liked it.
3. She has a solid stroke, but she doesn't posses the control of say John S or Sky.
4. She is a thinker, I liked her patterns and simple shape she opted for, instead of trying something ridiculous.
5. She executes safes, very poorly, and does not see alot of them. Don't get me wrong, she played some jam up safes, but they were very few.
6. She banks very poorly.
7. I do not see her being better than Chezka, once that little squirt gets her legs under her, and matures a little.

She does not beat a guy of the same Fargo, more than 20% of the time. Just my opinion.
I hope somehow we get to see a match though. I think it would be a blockbuster, regardless of outcome.

 

[one stroke]

In the last 3 days I have watched her play in 6 or 7 matches on you tube, including the recent Worlds. Several things that really stuck out to me about her.
1. She seems to have a very strong focus.
2. Her temperament seemed on point. I liked it.
3. She has a solid stroke, but she doesn't posses the control of say John S or Sky.
4. She is a thinker, I liked her patterns and simple shape she opted for, instead of trying something ridiculous.
5. She executes safes, very poorly, and does not see alot of them. Don't get me wrong, she played some jam up safes, but they were very few.
6. She banks very poorly.
7. I do not see her being better than Chezka, once that little squirt gets her legs under her, and matures a little.

She does not beat a guy of the same Fargo, more than 20% of the time. Just my opinion.
I hope somehow we get to see a match though. I think it would be a blockbuster, regardless of outcome.

Mind you she's 23 yrs old she's only 4 yrs old than the squirt ,, but I do see Cheska knocking down some barriers with her style of play ,

1

1

 

[jasonlaus]

In the last 3 days I have watched her play in 6 or 7 matches on you tube, including the recent Worlds. Several things that really stuck out to me about her.
1. She seems to have a very strong focus.
2. Her temperament seemed on point. I liked it.
3. She has a solid stroke, but she doesn't posses the control of say John S or Sky.
4. She is a thinker, I liked her patterns and simple shape she opted for, instead of trying something ridiculous.
5. She executes safes, very poorly, and does not see alot of them. Don't get me wrong, she played some jam up safes, but they were very few.
6. She banks very poorly.
7. I do not see her being better than Chezka, once that little squirt gets her legs under her, and matures a little.

She does not beat a guy of the same Fargo, more than 20% of the time. Just my opinion.
I hope somehow we get to see a match though. I think it would be a blockbuster, regardless of outcome.

I like Chezka's style of play much better - womens version of Earl, Hatch etc

 

[overlord]

Well I think it's hard for some to believe woman can compete with men on any level , yet most here can't even dream of completeing with those women at that high of level they are living thier thoughts vicariously threw the skills of the very elite male players , pretty comical and my bet is in the next 10 yrs that gap is going to close even more on the high end it wouldn't surprise me if a woman wins a WPA 9 ball event it's not If but when


1

I heard this stuff 25 years ago. No one in stating the facts is living vicariously through anybody else.

If women could compete with the top males in pool and did what you say they will do I could care less.

But the fact is they have not up until this time. This we know as fact.

 

[JohnnyOzone]

I HAVE thought about this, and I don't know which way it plays. There are two aspects. One is the one you mention, that when pinging closer to your own speed high-end accuracy goes down--and a weaker person is more likely affected by this. The flip side is this, and it has to do with speed control. The vast majority of shots are well within the comfort zone of any somewhat athletic, coordinated person. Let's say
Sampson's full range is 0 to 100, and
Delilah's full range is 0 to 50.
Let's also say most shots fall in the range 5 to 40. Who is going to better able to distinguish between a 17 and an 18? For Delilah, it is 2% of her range; for Sampson it is 1% of his range and the distinction between the two is more subtle--kinda like having your radio dial or computer-mouse more sensitive. So again, I don't know how this plays out. It's probably not very important either way.



Perhaps they are not blind to the differences but instead see other factors as being more important than those differences in leading whatever outcome difference we're talking about.

[...]



lol...It's all good ....

The Sampson and Delilah analogy that you have offered above has been disproven beyond andoubt in the world of golf. Male golfers have vastly superior "short games" than female LPGA due to superior strength. They are better able to control their clubs and have superior "touch" due to this difference.
If you watch Siming Chen or any other top female, their speed control is nowhere near a top male pro. In fact, that may be the thing that stands out the most as a difference in their games.

Then you have the whole evolutionary reasons that better equip men over women for hand-eye coordination and "aiming" abilities......but that is for another time and place I guess.

 

[mikepage]

The Sampson and Delilah analogy that you have offered above has been disproven beyond andoubt in the world of golf. Male golfers have vastly superior "short games" than female LPGA due to superior strength. They are better able to control their clubs and have superior "touch" due to this difference.
If you watch Siming Chen or any other top female, their speed control is nowhere near a top male pro. In fact, that may be the thing that stands out the most as a difference in their games.

I like this. I concede.

Then you have the whole evolutionary reasons that better equip men over women for hand-eye coordination and "aiming" abilities......but that is for another time and place I guess.

My problem is not whether such differences exist; it is whether they are invoked too quickly to explain differences that are really more complex...

 

[Dave714]

Siming Chen is slow as a Turtle and very boring to watch. At least Chezka has rhythm and can run racks in a hurry.

 

[LAMas]

Siming Chen is slow as a Turtle and very boring to watch. At least Chezka has rhythm and can run racks in a hurry.

Chezka has a future shooting for and with the Pinoys.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Tt6Fp0V2Fg

Who has the best butch cut?

 

[jasonlaus]

Chezka has a future shooting for and with the Pinoys.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Tt6Fp0V2Fg

Who has the best butch cut?

Really??????best butch cut? Wtf is wrong with you? Sad life you must have.

2 of the greatest female players period in history and that is what you have to say???

 

[Johnnyt]

Well I think it's hard for some to believe woman can compete with men on any level , yet most here can't even dream of completeing with those women at that high of level they are living thier thoughts vicariously threw the skills of the very elite male players , pretty comical and my bet is in the next 10 yrs that gap is going to close even more on the high end it wouldn't surprise me if a woman wins a WPA 9 ball event it's not If but when


1

I agree with all of this post. Johnnyt

 

[one stroke]

I heard this stuff 25 years ago. No one in stating the facts is living vicariously through anybody else.

If women could compete with the top males in pool and did what you say they will do I could care less.

But the fact is they have not up until this time. This we know as fact.

Karen finished 2nd at turning stone , won a APT event and Split one of Marylands state Turneys ,, she's beat countless top men pros so the "Fact " is they are already competing



1

 

[marek]

Ok then what happened? Sounds like an outlier.

Not really, Jasmin Ouschan has been a regular at Eurotour events for several years and she finished many times in TOP32 with her best finish being 5th in fields of 200+ players. In fact she finished higher than her brother Albin more than once at Eurotour :thumbup: So not much of an outliner

 

[Skratch]

From about 9 years ago:

The fundamental reason for having separate sporting events for young people, old people, and women (and other classifications in some sports) is that people in these classifications typically perform at an inferior level compared to adult males who are not yet seniors. If the young, the old, and females did not have their own events, these people would be unable to win much of anything in the sports world. They are in "protected" classes so they can compete with similar people.

But at the highest level in most sports, the events are, and should be, open to any human being capable of competing at that level.

In the amateur golf world, for example, the U.S. Golf Association sponsors these six events (and some others) -- one for junior females, one for juniors as a whole, one for senior women, one for seniors as a whole, one for women of any age, and one for human beings of any age or sex. This last event is the U.S. Amateur, open to anyone who qualifies. And if a senior woman was good enough, she could play in both of the senior events and both of the adult (but-not-yet-senior) events. In fact, if this same senior woman was good enough to qualify, she could also play in the U.S. Open (amateurs and pros).

In pool, we see the same sort of thing -- events for juniors, or women, or "Class B" players, or wheelchair players, etc. These groups need to be protected in this way, because most of their players would be completely uncompetitive in open events. But if people in these classes are good enough, they can also try to compete at the highest level in truly open events, which, of course, are currently dominated by adult males.

Perhaps someday women pool players won't need their own tour. But in the meantime, it's a real pleasure to see a few of them able to compete with the top men. And to argue that the top men should therefore be eligible to compete in women's events is just ludicrous.

I understand why they are separate, and it was never an issue to me. If the women (et. al.) want to play in their own tournaments and not in the open events, I'm happy for them. My reasoning for suggesting the removal of the women's event was to address the issue of how a player's Fargo Rating, or any other rating system is skewed and not a true measure of their playing ability. For the OP to allude that some of the women players are placing higher on the charts compared to some of the men, and this would suggest that they are better players than those same men is
misleading. My suggestion would then place them playing those same women against those same men regularly. The rating systems would then be a more accurate measure since they are then compared "apples to apples, oranges to oranges."

As an analogy, imagine a player's rating from a professional baseball team being compared to that of a minor league's, on a rating system that uses the same metrics. It would be obvious that the professional's actual playing ability would be considered much better, even if their ratings are the same. So, comparing some of the women's ratings to that of the men's when they aren't in even in the same league and alluding to that as female player A is better than male player B is inaccurate. If the female player is always competing with the male players and her rating is awarded thusly, then I would concede that she would be the better player. I think then, to remedy the issue, the listing of Fargo Ratings should be separated as well.

I fully support that these top women should be playing in all the open events. Its great for the sport in my opinion.

 

[overlord]

In tournament play you play one set of Nine Ball against an opponent. Its the nature of Nine Ball that there is a lot of luck.

I know a guy that I used to play all the time we would go back and forth playing Nine Ball.

I am no great player on any level. Now this guy played Mika Immonen in the Hard Times Sunday Nine Ball tournament. My friend did not even know who he was.

That's a real problem with pool when a guy is playing a world champion and has no idea who he is.

He got a game on the wire gong to six. He beat Mika. Well what does that mean? It means Mika for the money could give this guy like the last six and the breaks and still prevail.

Many top Pinoy players that did not win the tournaments they were in have to give up weight to get action from other top players.

Top players over time strangle you at the table. If a safety battle ensues they win it.

My daughter's boy friend is a solidly successful software engineer. I asked what the ratio of women to men in his field is. I said is it ten to one? He said no its more like 15-1.

Now the idea that my asking this question and getting an answer makes me a misogynist is risible.

One of my premises is that the dominant male player in every room I've ever played in will defeat the dominant female.

This works out in real life as well, Allison Fisher who was without any argument the dominant female player of her generation could take a set off someone like Efren Reyes if the stars aligned for her.

Now, if both players post up the cash and play all night Allison would have no chance whatsoever and this is just fact.

Another weak spot for women is One Pocket. Never saw a woman that can play anywhere near the level of top male One Pocket players. This fact effects the pro level of their safety game.

If the data changes I will be the first to acknowledge this fact. I think the best Nine Ball players are the folks that play all night for the cash over a lot of sets.

Follow the money, Dennis Orcollo is feared because he took down the cash in the Philippines against all takers.

Jose Parica lost many a tournament and beat the guy that won in after hours sets for the cash. Sometimes he had to give them weight.

The pros know what's up and who to really fear.

 

[mikepage]

[...] My reasoning for suggesting the removal of the women's event was to address the issue of how a player's Fargo Rating, or any other rating system is skewed and not a true measure of their playing ability. For the OP to allude that some of the women players are placing higher on the charts compared to some of the men, and this would suggest that they are better players than those same men is
misleading.

What is misleading is you suggesting they are claiming those women are better than the men. They are not. If I say Jasmin beat Mark Gray 9-4 in a Eurotour event--which she did--, I am not saying Jasmin is better than Mark Gray. I'm just saying that's a feather in her cap.

My suggestion would then place them playing those same women against those same men regularly. The rating systems would then be a more accurate measure since they are then compared "apples to apples, oranges to oranges."

As an analogy, imagine a player's rating from a professional baseball team being compared to that of a minor league's, on a rating system that uses the same metrics. It would be obvious that the professional's actual playing ability would be considered much better, even if their ratings are the same. So, comparing some of the women's ratings to that of the men's when they aren't in even in the same league and alluding to that as female player A is better than male player B is inaccurate.

This is exactly the problem that FargoRate solves. Are you aware that if we take Shane Van Boening and ignore ALL his games against other pros and compute his rating just based on play against amateurs, his rating comes out the same as it is now?

 

[overlord]

http://www.bbc.com/sport/snooker/27253279

Data from the world of Snooker.

 

[KRJ]

I heard this stuff 25 years ago. No one in stating the facts is living vicariously through anybody else.

If women could compete with the top males in pool and did what you say they will do I could care less.

But the fact is they have not up until this time. This we know as fact.

Very true, it has not happened yet, it's not happening now. And in the future, nobody knows for sure. But for someone to say she is one of the best players (male or female) on the planet is ludicrous.

Heck, I will root for the woman every time they play the men, why not. I LOVED when Karen Corr beat KO. Who would not.

But the woman don't seem to be upset they don't play at the same level as the men. Allison Fisher never cared, why would she, she was the best woman's player on the planet for almost a decade. So, why are folks here that upset about it if the woman are not upset about it ? just confusing.

Look at chess, it is NOT even a sport. You could have some else move the pieces for you. Yet, 98% of the worlds elite Grand Masters in the world are men. Chess has been around longer then billiards, and nothing prevents woman from playing the game, heck, it's encouraged. Woman have actively been playing chess since the 12th century. It was taught to both, male and female.

But, then in the 17th century, something happened. The queen and bishop, formerly "weak" pieces, got stronger, and could move across the board at will. It became a much more aggressive game. Men began to dominate it at this point. Not sure if I have a point or not, but it's kind of interesting.

 

[mikepage]

Very true, it has not happened yet, it's not happening now. And in the future, nobody knows for sure. But for someone to say she is one of the best players (male or female) on the planet is ludicrous.

It is firmly established from lots of direct competition and competition within a group that Siming Chen is more than 50 points above Karen Corr and Jasmin Ouschan. So you need to look at males that play even with Karen--and go up 50 points. That's where Siming belongs.

Look at chess, it is NOT even a sport. You could have some else move the pieces for you. Yet, 98% of the worlds elite Grand Masters in the world are men. Chess has been around longer then billiards, and nothing prevents woman from playing the game, heck, it's encouraged. Woman have actively been playing chess since the 12th century. It was taught to both, male and female.

But, then in the 17th century, something happened. The queen and bishop, formerly "weak" pieces, got stronger, and could move across the board at will. It became a much more aggressive game. Men began to dominate it at this point. Not sure if I have a point or not, but it's kind of interesting.

There was an interesting study related to this. They took a bunch of female and male top young chess players and had them play against an opponent they could not see. The young women performed significantly worse when they THOUGHT they were playing against a male than when they THOUGHT they were playing against a female. I'm not sure what to make of it, but it is clear there is complicated crap going on, and we should be circumspect about any conclusions...

 

[overlord]

Very true, it has not happened yet, it's not happening now. And in the future, nobody knows for sure. But for someone to say she is one of the best players (male or female) on the planet is ludicrous.

Heck, I will root for the woman every time they play the men, why not. I LOVED when Karen Corr beat KO. Who would not.

But the woman don't seem to be upset they don't play at the same level as the men. Allison Fisher never cared, why would she, she was the best woman's player on the planet for almost a decade. So, why are folks here that upset about it if the woman are not upset about it ? just confusing.

Look at chess, it is NOT even a sport. You could have some else move the pieces for you. Yet, 98% of the worlds elite Grand Masters in the world are men. Chess has been around longer then billiards, and nothing prevents woman from playing the game, heck, it's encouraged. Woman have actively been playing chess since the 12th century. It was taught to both, male and female.

But, then in the 17th century, something happened. The queen and bishop, formerly "weak" pieces, got stronger, and could move across the board at will. It became a much more aggressive game. Men began to dominate it at this point. Not sure if I have a point or not, but it's kind of interesting.

The chess analogie is interesting. Chess is a great game. Even a guy like Bobby Fisher that had a massive 181 IQ had to drop out of high school and totally focus on Chess to be world champion.

When playing Russian champions you were basically playing the whole Soviet State as they totally subsidized and schooled their players. In the US you were on your own.

That's why Fisher's win in Iceland was so earth shattering.

 

[overlord]

It is firmly established from lots of direct competition and competition within a group that Siming Chen is more than 50 points above Karen Corr and Jasmin Ouschan. So you need to look at males that play even with Karen--and go up 50 points. That's where Siming belongs.



There was an interesting study related to this. They took a bunch of female and male top young chess players and had them play against an opponent they could not see. The young women performed significantly worse when they THOUGHT they were playing against a male than when they THOUGHT they were playing against a female. I'm not sure what to make of it, but it is clear there is complicated crap going on, and we should be circumspect about any conclusions...

I don't know anything about the Fargo rating system. Does it apply to One Pocket?