Simonis Std Green 860 -- their website Fails so I ask the experts

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I looked at your tack strip method with an open mind - and decided it's not the way to go so no need to "try" it.
I prefer glue or staples. Seems pretty simple to me. What part don't you get?

Insinuate you do bad work? Hardly :rolleyes:
Please quote where I said that.
 
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Well here is more post to keep this going for John. Wow this is great! The only guy to go away four times and come back and still keep bumping old post. It is like LUCKY CHARMS. Something Magical.
Ron
 
Now that RKC is having a training seminar I would like to request that since all the best guys are there that this spec be established and shared in the forum. ....

3"
Now go play with your frickin tack strips, snooker ends and pocket inserts. :bash:
 
HOw you can say your mind is open then say you wouldn't try something that takes a few minutes is exactly what I am talking about in here with closed minds and constant negative talk over another method. You have never seen it, tried or anything but you have an opionion on it, bullshit.

I don't ask my customers topost for me as I speak for myself. But I could if I wanted but then you band of merry men would sour them with your poison. My customers love me and what I do, just because they don't post here is no reason to think I do bad work. You can PISS off for insuating that Fartman.

John, you must be a little testy by now, you miss spelled Dartman's screen name:D

Glen

PS. So I take it you don't want to come and learn something new huh? Openminded....hmmm...I'll have to look that one up for the real explanation I guess!
 
John, you must be a little testy by now, you miss spelled Dartman's screen name:D

Glen

PS. So I take it you don't want to come and learn something new huh? Openminded....hmmm...I'll have to look that one up for the real explanation I guess!

Maybe an owwwy from snagging a tack or a brainfart affected his typing. :D

Open Mind -
Receptive to new and different ideas or the opinions of others.

Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think the definition of "receptive" means to "try".
 
Then I guess there's only one thing for you to do John, you'd better come to the seminar so that you have a hands on experience installing the cloth my way, then you'll have an idea as to how that compares to your way...OH wait, you're NOT as open minded as you said you were....hmmm;)


you aleady explained it to me Glen and everyone else don't you remember?
When I do a job for a customer I always tell them that I am the best in the country!!!! [/QUOTE]
I would hope that all mechanics tell their customers that...not just you;)

And since from what I have read spelling correctly is not a requirement, I will throw it to the wind. A

Saying it and being it are two dif things entirely

[/QUOTE]
This causes undue stress/stretch favoring oneside. Premature ball wear as a result.[/QUOTE]

Got some facts to back up that statement, seeings how the balls are much harder than the cloth they roll on, one would think it would be very hard for the cloth to wear out the balls as you just stated....because of how it's installed;)

I did't say the cloth wears out the balls, again you just twist my words and read them too fast my friend. Ball wear is where its worn on the rails and around the pocket where I come from.

[/QUOTE]
I will admit my system makes doing the pockets harder then Glen as I don't allow slack. I could give a rats ass on how the inside of the pocket looks.[/QUOTE]

Hmmm....best in the country huh;)

you rate the inside of a pocket as something that determins your work, I would rate wearing presentable clothes 10 times that. If you think all the guys going to your class to learn how to make bandaids because they couldn't figure it out for themselves, I am sorry but these guys can do bandaids all day long right now and they DON'T. If they need someone to show them that, C'mon. So all the mechs here do that, WRONG. I know these guys and they would have put up pics.


[/QUOTE]
I think having a seminar is great, I am going to have one also. I am going to do a poolroom with tac strips. You can come learn my rail extensions,

Oh one more thing. If you come to my seminar, I will make a printed agenda to follow and stick to.

It won't be free, you will be working and guess what, You will be getting paid
.[/QUOTE]

No matter what John, you haven't had a seminar as of yet, so no matter what...you're going to loose sleep knowing you were not the first:D:D


WRONG -- I have had seminars and the best kind with friends AL CONTE and Herb Lehman. Herb is a world class player and highly respected Master.




As far as getting paid, I hope all those that attend get paid for the rest of the time they're working on tables, because the demand for THEIR work out shines the demand for a hack doing the same job for less, or even the same...because their work is much more in demand....than that of a hack:D I know Diamond will support them in every-way possible when it comes to recommending a mechanic to a customer calling into Diamond wanting someone to work on their pool table(s)....and you can put Simonis on that list as well:D so you just do what ever you feel like doing John...OH yeah, you forgot to mention how much you'd charge:D

Charge for what, I sell Simonis on my website for $200 delivered and I am not involed with any kick backs as there seems to be in other operations. You want to talk about charging-- lets start a thread for that.

You want to infer to me by saying Diamond and Simonis will NOT recognize me and only guys you tell them to, thats what your saying to me. FINE, this weekend off comes Simonis of my website. And for Diamond, I have done one, and its the nuts, and with tac strips. Diamond doesn't want to say that I am qualified, I DONT CARE. You speak for Diamond and you speak for SIMONIS. I speak for myself!



This is your mech union, do what I say or you will be blackballed!


[/QUOTE]
In closing, I came back to the forum in the hope of just applauding Glens efforts for a mech\union etc and wanted to clarify a question that I have about specs. Forget all the other stuff,can we establish a spec for min max or NOT?

Its nice to have me back don't you think
.[/QUOTE]

It's what ever you want it to be John, just put it on as tight as you can buddy:D because no matter what numbers would be put on for stretch...you'd argue with it no matter who established them be it me, Simonis...or anyone else....because you're BETTER than that!

For the record, I have been fair you have NOT. When I look for a concrete answer I get nothing. The problem is that its not up tome Glen, don't you get it. Its the general public within the forum that should be able to know that it should havean acceptable range of this or that. Its obvious what I say doesn't matter. But its also obvious that every time I do say something I have a barge of conflicts because it may be a new method,idea etc. I come up with something great and you guys Poo Poo it. Its not about me and you know that but you keep making yourself feel better by saying it is. Just as DARTMAN says not to flame he means he is, Just as you say its about me when really, its all about you.




[/QUOTE]
I have been to many seminars and the best part of them that produces results is what they call a "brainstorming session". I don't see that on your outline Glen, why not?[/QUOTE]

Brainstorming is what takes place AFTER the mechanics leave this seminar...because then they have something new to work with....and think about as a direction to go in.

Donny, aka SDbilliards has modified my system to fit his way of working on tables, but he still has the basic method in the background...and THAT'S what brainstorming is all about.

Glen[/QUOTE]

Glen, in case you don't know and perhaps I haven't told you this but I think I did.

I do pool tables because I love them NOT because I have to do them. Every customer makes that comment to me and how I do their job. How I charge is by who you are and how you talk to me. Yet another skillset that won't be on your seminar agenda.
 
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Lets get some fat guy sumo suits and have a wrestling match between tech winner gets the honoary sign as grand master of masters.

Craig
 
Lets get some fat guy sumo suits and have a wrestling match between tech winner gets the honoary sign as grand master of masters.

Craig

I think each man should cover a GC with the same type cloth and mark the cloth for a final stretch measurement...........then post the results and be done with it. Just for kicks:D
 
[/QUOTE]
In closing, I came back to the forum in the hope of just applauding Glens efforts for a mech\union etc and wanted to clarify a question that I have about specs. Forget all the other stuff,can we establish a spec for min max or NOT?
QUOTE]

QUOTE]
When I look for a concrete answer I get nothing. The problem is that its not up tome Glen, don't you get it. Its the general public within the forum that should be able to know that it should havean acceptable range of this or that.
QUOTE]

John, either you don't read english very well, or you fail to understand what you read! I have told you over and over again...there CAN NOT be ONE standard acceptable by YOU that will ever dictate a MIN or MAX on how tight to install Simonis cloth....BECAUSE THAT is dictated by the individual mechanic's strenght ability to stretch and install Simonis cloth, so to SUM it up for YOU...the MIN and MAX stretch is an INDIVIDUAL thing!!!!!!!!!!!!!....NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT a set number that has to be performed....because YOU YOU YOU YOU YOU want some kind of specific stretch....and will NOT NOT NOT be happy until someone says, OK John, in order to install Simonis cloth....the stretch is????????????? side to side, and ???????????? end to end...PERIOD!!! And even so, like I said, YOU would still WANT to argue with ANY numbers set....because YOU can install it tighter.....so the set numbers would be WRONG!!!!

I swear, YOU....and Steve Wonder seriously have ONE thing in COMMON....you're BLIND as a BAT!!!!!


Glen
 
can't sleep can you,

like I said the numbers are for everyone else NOT me, I don't need to mark cloths when I put them on.

now I am off to the gym
 
And I don't level a table like Glen either. /QUOTE]

John, if you level a pool table to the point that no balls will roll off, then we level tables with the same result, how you get there really don't matter, as long as you get there....a level table! But there you go again....I DON"T level pool tables like "GLEN" does....who the hell cares John?????????? as long as the table is level in the end, I would think that's what's really important....don't YOU? Do you have an obsession to be better than me....or what? because I really don't care how you level your tables;)

/QUOTE]Glen please don't make statements to me that challenge me unless you want me to accept or challenge. You said that you put cloth on tighter than me, so I said prove it, send me a piece.
It seems like its not that big of a deal to prove a point of this nature.. so once again. At your seminar, mark out a cloth if you would please and send it to me.
/QUOTE]
John, I've stated how tight I install Simonis cloth over and over again, but I have yet to hear you ONCE say how tight YOU install it with a number...how come? Don't you KNOW how to measure out the cloth before you stretch it?...or is that some kind of SECRET with you? Just to let you know something John, I can install the Simonis cloth tighter than 3", but I see no reason for it! John, I'm pushing 270lbs, and trust me, you are NOT as strong as I am, but I don't install cloth tight as I can with all my strength! When you can start dead lifting over 600lbs...you call me, and we'll work something out to see who's stronger...until then....PAY ATTENTION AND COMPREHEND WHAT YOU READ!!!!!! AND STOP TRYING TO ARGUE WITH EVERYONE;)

Glen

PS. You also didn't listen to what I said when I told you I did the tack strip method back in the 80's and didn't like it, because it didn't work for all tables!!!...Your tack strip method is NOT NEW!
 
I am NOT arguing with EVERYONE.

Everytime I ask for data I get analogies, examples etc. and its all about me bal bla

There is a min amount of stretch and a max. With your system GLEN NOT mine a spec could be established. You could do it at your class. You would rather say some guys pull it tighter etc. 2 inches may be enough and 3 perfect etc. But you can't establish that, to me Glen, a guy with your rep should be one who can determin these numbers. If the numbers are good they speak for themselves and I would support them.

read you loud and clear

guess it doesn't matter anyways since I won't be with Simonis any more.
 
I am NOT arguing with EVERYONE.

Everytime I ask for data I get analogies, examples etc. and its all about me bal bla

There is a min amount of stretch and a max. With your system GLEN NOT mine a spec could be established. You could do it at your class. You would rather say some guys pull it tighter etc. 2 inches may be enough and 3 perfect etc. But you can't establish that, to me Glen, a guy with your rep should be one who can determin these numbers. If the numbers are good they speak for themselves and I would support them.

read you loud and clear

guess it doesn't matter anyways since I won't be with Simonis any more.

John, if you don't want to sell Simonis cloth anymore, that's YOUR choice buddy! I'm going to try and explain this min/max one more time....OK? Are you listening? The min/max stretch is both the same, it's determined by the person installing the cloth...and it don't even matter if it's Simonis cloth or not...that number of inches per stretch is not going to be the same from one person to the next, yes there are going to be those that can install cloth tighter than others, but that doesn't mean that a person that can't stretch the cloth as tight as someone else can...an inadequate mechanic, it just means they don't have the same arm strength! Now, does that mean the cloth that person installs is going to be loose?...NO, it's just not as tight as someone else's, that's all. There is many degrees of tight buddy, that is what my teaching does....it shows a person how to determine how tight they can install cloth based on their own strengths, and consistently reproduce that same installation from table to table, so that that person is consistently doing the same work on every table they work on, doesn't matter what size of table it is!

Do you understand what I'm saying John? When I ask you how to stretch a new cloth you've never used before, your answer would simply be tight, well...that's not good enough for me, because as I've already said...you can't just simply teach "tight"! If a person is recovering say 10 tables in a pool room, all with the same cloth, my way teaches the mechanic how to make sure that the last table done is just as tight as the first table, and that tired is not going to be making the mechanic that the last table is just as tight...when in fact it's not, because of fatigue!

Glen
 
John, if you don't want to sell Simonis cloth anymore, that's YOUR choice buddy! I'm going to try and explain this min/max one more time....OK? Are you listening? The min/max stretch is both the same, it's determined by the person installing the cloth...and it don't even matter if it's Simonis cloth or not...that number of inches per stretch is not going to be the same from one person to the next, yes there are going to be those that can install cloth tighter than others, but that doesn't mean that a person that can't stretch the cloth as tight as someone else can...an inadequate mechanic, it just means they don't have the same arm strength! Now, does that mean the cloth that person installs is going to be loose?...NO, it's just not as tight as someone else's, that's all. There is many degrees of tight buddy, that is what my teaching does....it shows a person how to determine how tight they can install cloth based on their own strengths, and consistently reproduce that same installation from table to table, so that that person is consistently doing the same work on every table they work on, doesn't matter what size of table it is!
Do you understand what I'm saying John? When I ask you how to stretch a new cloth you've never used before, your answer would simply be tight, well...that's not good enough for me, because as I've already said...you can't just simply teach "tight"! If a person is recovering say 10 tables in a pool room, all with the same cloth, my way teaches the mechanic how to make sure that the last table done is just as tight as the first table, and that tired is not going to be making the mechanic that the last table is just as tight...when in fact it's not, because of fatigue!

Glen

That's logical.
People who work more/harder are pretty much going to have more strength than say someone that runs with 4-5 guys doing the same jobs.
If you had a crew of guys say 4,that were all working on different tables at the same time, you would have 4 different playing tables,and cloth stretched differently due to the personal ability/preferences of each.If one of them is more rested, slightly stronger, and tries more, then he would have a tighter stretch than say,the guy that hasn't slept, eaten, and is less motivated to be there.
Same story around the country.
The guys that like what they do, and are good at it,will out perform those that are not.
Without having a guide,if you will, to reach as their goal on the stretch, then they will have to vary table to table due to how they feel at that moment.
Trust me,it's not hard to hit the mark,it's hard finding that mark that is determine by your proven ability.
IF I have a stretch index of 2 7/8" with Simonis, Glen has an index of 3", and the guy down the street can only find a way to get 2",then someone needs to get a new j-o-b.
The more you pull felt,the more your stetch index will eventually be, as long as you do it right and don't mind some of the pain that eventually goes away.
Then you can have some consistency in your work that leaves no room for variation, and everyone already knows how every table you do will play under the same conditions.
I've done the stretch by feel way for years,we all have,but until you have a mark to achieve, that is right on the edge of what you are capable of pulling, you don't realize how hard it can be to hit your target at the end of the day.
And until you have done that,you can't have a way to determine the consistency of your pulls.
When you see that line running down the edge of a table in a straight line,you know you've done it right, and that everywhere on the table has the same consistency in it's stretch.
I like that.
I kinda go out of my way some to push Glen's buttons sometimes,but if it's a better way, that allows me to have a system to ensure that every table I do is going to have that same degree of attention, I can't deny what the end results are.
Until there's a large majority of people doing it, then the general public is not going to be aware of the difference,and nothing will change.
And in this case, I'm all for change.
If there is going to be a standard for the industry, there are very few things that need to change to make a standard.
Glue,stretch, level, pride, ability (read certification) are only part of it.
I've been in Unions for other industries.
I hate Union.
But, there is a good side to Unions....They are here in order to protect our interests,and those of our customers in this case by establishing actual ability.
It's hard for me to admit that I need to change a few things to hit the top standard that is being established.
I set standards too high for myself as it is, and will continue to, but if it means changing a couple of simple little habits to change the whole overall big picture.....
I'm open minded enough to do it.;)
 
I never said marking the cloth was bad did I? I have done it for many years on Billiard tables. When putting on cloth you can easily eyeball how much trim your taking and be consistent at the same time without marking it.

So what your saying is that you have a stretch guide for all types of cloth, color and size?

and if a mech could improve his own stretch ability with a new method that wouldn't be a good thing would it? especially for a guy who was a bit weaker, or even better a guy that can only do 2.5 with glue but maybe he can do 3 with tac strips. Gluing tables has been around for a long time, using modified tac strips has not but they will be. And you can use your system if you have to, but when you can just see that evrything is even and pulled as tight as you say, why mark them.

Cuephoric is right, one day you may feel great and so for whatever reason your able to pull tighter, do you adjust the benchmark for yourself.

Tighter is better, but if there is a way that the same guy might be able to do it better, don't try it?

Glen, if your saying to me that because I don't put on cloth the way you do Simoinis wouldn't recognize me or recommend me as an installer than if thats what your saying, I am done with them> So clarify for me, Simonis is going to prop guys on whos authority. You say they don't know how to put on cloth, so who is going to say who is on list like that. The list will say that for example: 2 guys in the area on the list but one guy does 3 inch the other 2.5.

Heres is my method Glen, try to do better every time and in every aspect. I have listened to you and others in here and for example, got that nice sander, used your bandaid system with my rack cloths and more. So I think its fair to say I have tried other suggestions and think I will continue to improve as a result. You Glen, have your closed your door and are set in your ways period and you said it yourself.

Lets take a rack cloth for example, is that a good thing to do or bad. Nobody does it, I thinks it more benefecial to the long term use of the table then trimming the inside of a pocket, the ball doesn't roll there either.

You mentioned it not me about Simonis and Diamond, I perceived an inference

Ok back to the gym, look forward to your response after I eat my dinner when I come back. Don't get me going to bad I have a !P match at 6.

Having fun yet
 
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I never said marking the cloth was bad did I? I have done it for many years on Billiard tables. When putting on cloth you can easily eyeball how much trim your taking and be consistent at the same time without marking it.

So what your saying is that you have a stretch guide for all types of cloth, color and size?

and if a mech could improve his own stretch ability with a new method that wouldn't be a good thing would it? especially for a guy who was a bit weaker, or even better a guy that can only do 2.5 with glue but maybe he can do 3 with tac strips. Gluing tables has been around for a long time, using modified tac strips has not but they will be. And you can use your system if you have to, but when you can just see that evrything is even and pulled as tight as you say, why mark them.

Cuephoric is right, one day you may feel great and so for whatever reason your able to pull tighter, do you adjust the benchmark for yourself.

Tighter is better, but if there is a way that the same guy might be able to do it better, don't try it?

Glen, if your saying to me that because I don't put on cloth the way you do Simoinis wouldn't recognize me or recommend me as an installer than if thats what your saying, I am done with them> So clarify for me, Simonis is going to prop guys on whos authority. You say they don't know how to put on cloth, so who is going to say who is on list like that. The list will say that for example: 2 guys in the area on the list but one guy does 3 inch the other 2.5.

Heres is my method Glen, try to do better every time and in every aspect. I have listened to you and others in here and for example, got that nice sander, used your bandaid system with my rack cloths and more. So I think its fair to say I have tried other suggestions and think I will continue to improve as a result. You Glen, have your closed your door and are set in your ways period and you said it yourself.

Lets take a rack cloth for example, is that a good thing to do or bad. Nobody does it, I thinks it more benefecial to the long term use of the table then trimming the inside of a pocket, the ball doesn't roll there either.

You mentioned it not me about Simonis and Diamond, I perceived an inference

Ok back to the gym, look forward to your response after I eat my dinner when I come back. Don't get me going to bad I have a !P match at 6.

Having fun yet

Holly shit John, are you that thickheaded, or just plain ass bullheaded!!!??? IF a mechanic only has the strength to pull a 2.5" stretch using my glue system...what in the hell makes you think that same person has the strength to pull 3" using tack strips??????
 
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Don't know about you guys but when I talk to the wall and get no answers I quit trying.
 
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