SJM Slant on the 2017 Mosconi Cup

Cardigan Kid

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You have a link to the list? I'm in town and will get down to TS and probably Salt City, even though I haven't played in about 5 months
Thanks
Jason

I created a thread just now with the players list....
Always great having turning stone predictions and banter in the 2 weeks prior.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=466156

I'll definitely be there for most of Saturday and into Sunday sitting on the rail.
 

arthurbacon

Registered
The Mosconi Cup

I would like to offer some thoughts as to why the United States is not winning Mosconi Cups. There are many reasons of course and for one person to pretend to have all the answers would be presumptuous. Of course we can win again but how?

First of all, it must be acknowledged that the coach is hugely important. Do the names Lombardi, Hayes, Wooden and Gable come to mind? John Wooden won TEN NCAA titles and the year after his retirement, the championship team he left behind did not even make it to the final four the next year. THAT says something about the importance of the coach if anything does. There is something ineffable about what a coach does but whatever it is, it is important. Some coaches are former stars like Lenny Wilkens and some, like Dick Motta hardly played the game at all but each brought something special to their coaching. Coaches are sort of like conductors. Once I asked a famous musician who he would rather hear: a stellar orchestra such as the New York Phil conducted by a mediocre conductor or a mediocre orchestra such as the Tacoma Symphony conducted by a great conductor and he said unhesitatingly, “Tacoma”. A great conductor can bring things out in each musician to make a beautiful, unified sound. Same with a great athletic coach, they get us to do things we might not have known we were capable of.

Pool is unique among games/sports in that there are very few coaches. Pool players, certainly not any professionals I have hear about, do not play for coaches like almost all other athletes including professional tennis players. Venus Williams and Rafael Nadal have coaches. EVERY elite tennis player has a coach. Once Tiger Woods spent an entire year with a coach to develop a new stroke. American pool players almost seem to eschew the notion of coaching. I heard that one year Thorsten spent an entire month, eight hours a day, training with his coach in Germany. There is an excellent article in the New Yorker (October 3, 2011) about a Yale Medical School surgeon who, at the peak of his career, got the idea that he might be able to get even better so he asked his old surgery professor to come in the operating room and observe and then discuss what could be done better. I recommended this article to several pool players and they were not interested. There isn’t an athlete or pool player on the planet who cannot get better; but often we need guidance. Supposedly, Jerry Breiseth helps out a few pros now and then but I have never heard of a regular coach such as the tennis players have.

Needless to say, a player has to have absolute confidence in his/her coach. So I was surprised that Mark Wilson was not able to pull off a MC comeback. He is an excellent player himself and has been coaching now for several years at LIndenwood University so I fully expected that he, of all people, would be able to establish rapport and build a strong team. So what happened? Sometimes it is just a matter of chemistry and no amount of skill on either part, player or coach, can result in victory. Plain old luck cannot be discounted altogether. And of course Jupiter has to be lined up with Saturn just right to make the balls drop in the right holes. I think Corey would be an outstanding coach.

Then, I would posit that the game is played quite differently in the UK and Europe than in the US. Here it is ALL about gambling. I do not know of a single top American player who does not gamble. The European player aspires to win tournaments while the American player aspires to win tens of thousands of dollars “on the road”. I remember when Justin Bergman came through town about ten years ago after winning the world junior championship and he had some fake name but Vince Frayne figured that out but Justin went on to beat Todd Marsh in a race to nine for five hundred dollars. It seems de rigueure for American players to “hit the road” once they have proven their mettle in their local milieu.

And of course there is Billy Thorpe coming up here a couple times to play John Schmitt for ten grand last year. The mythologies built around most of the great old timers are rife with accounts of guns, drugs, alcohol, fights and narrow escapes through small bathroom windows as these guys traveled around the country robbing local yokels out of hard-earned cash, hence the title of one of the most widely read pool books: The Bank Shot And Other Great Robberies, “robbery” being the key word. These are not men searching for nirvana or some transcendental peace of mind. I recommend watching Jimmy Mataya on YouTube instructing us on “how to hustle pool”. Every young pool player in America wants to be like the young “Pretty Boy Floyd”. C.J. Wiley even had a series of total bulshit stories in various pool magazines about all his “narrow escapes” after fleecing truck drivers, military personnel, construction workers and anybody foolish and inebriated enough to play for a wad of Franklins. Gambling is in the DNA of American pool players and the discussion will probably go on forever whether this is a good thing or not.

The thing about gambling is that it engenders a lot of things that have almost nothing to do with tournament play. Take sharking for example; AKA, cheating. Once when I was driving Steve “The Lizzard” Smith back to his lugubrious “weekly rates” motel room he said, “I can show you a thousand ways to shark a guy”. Why would I want to know how to cheat? Maybe that is why he never got past high school. All the little bulshit stuff that goes into setting up a money game has nothing to do with tournament play. This is a unique feature of pool and I don’t think it is unrelated to Mosconi Cup preparation. Weight, for example. The ONLY reason there is such a thing as “weight” in pool is for the gambling. I am not a money player so I could care less about “weight”, but all these top American players know the odds of 9-6 versus 10-7 or 12-6 or whatever in One Pocket. . .and then they get to London and suddenly there is no bulshit, no weight, no sharking; just pool.

Secondly, I think pool is learned/taught differently in the United States than abroad which has something to do with the Mosconi Cup. Here young men learn to play through a combination of auto didacticism and haphazard instruction; that is to say, we do not have ANY semblance of a national project in teaching/learning pool. Boys and girls have to learn to play pretty much on their own. As a country we care about as much for pool as we do for curling or cock fighting. Once in awhile a kid gets interested in learning how to play pool and perhaps he is lucky to have a friend with a table, or as we see in many of our better players like young Landon Shuffett, Shane and Max Eberle, they had family support from an early age. I do not pretend to know the pool histories of most players but I don’t think I am too far off the mark when I aver that many guys just learned on their own (I know for a fact that the best player where I live says he had no mentoring whatsoever).

So then, even if a kid does have talent where is he going to find an alcohol-free room where he can play all day? There was a VERY promising kid named Chuck Holyoke in Seattle around the 05’s, taught largely by Dan Fitzsimons, but when the only serious “dry” room, Dr. Cues, closed, the kid suddenly had no legal place to play so he took up golf. Did anybody care? One day, when Chuckie was about 14, I saw him take five hundred dollars off Jason Klatt. This was a kid who was clearly destined to be a top player and not a single organization stepped up to nurture him. In wrestling, table tennis or judo a kid with that much talent would have ended up at the Olympic training center in Colorado Springs.

For some reason, American pool and beer are like peanut butter and jelly. I bought my table from a guy who said he gave up drinking so he “didn’t need his pool table any more”. I say what? If there is money involved I LOVE it when a guy says, “I always play better after a few beers”. Hey, buy this man another beer! Come on; would we really like it if our brain surgeon said, “I always operate better after a few beers”? Good pool is as delicate and demanding of ALL our faculties as brain surgery. A cursory glance at the advertisements in any pool magazine will attest to the symbiotic link between pool and pilsner in America. I have never heard of such a link between beer and any other sport. This is not good for pool my friends. As an aside, I did try going to wrestling practice once in college drunk and it was not good. I might have a wee bit “looser” but certainly not smarter or stronger. Anybody who thinks they play pool better after a few beers needs to read about the effects of alcohol on various parts of the brain. It makes about as much sense as smoking cigarettes for a long distance runner. If alcohol really made one play better then I would expect every brain surgeon, diamond cutter and Rolex maker to have a flask of Jack Daniels in his back pocket. I do not mean to totally discount the phenomenon that SOME people SEEM to play better pool after a few beers but I would strenuously argue that that is a psychological issue.

Many of our top players, if not all of them, play a lot of pool for a lot of money. Practically every week we read about So-And-So playing So-And-So for ten, fifty or a hundred thousand dollars! I happen to know two very fine pool players, guys who have gambled for many, many tens of thousands of dollars. Both of them are unfamiliar with the word “fun”. They never just play for fun. Playing pool “is work”. These are players just one rung below national caliber players, that is to say, on any given day they would beat anybody if their game was “on” and John’s, Shane’s, Justin’s or Thorsten’s game was off. I am talking about guys who play One Pocket for five and ten thousand dollars on a regular basis. I showed one of these guys my money belt (an actual belt that holds up my pants that I have been wearing for ten years) which holds about thirty hundreds folded lengthwise and he laughed and said, “Its not big enough”.

I know another top player who has given up pool and sells cars now. I said, “Well, don’t you ever want to play just for fun, you know, a few games of eight ball with friends”? He said, absolutely not. Pool is work, not fun. He sounded like Don Schollander after wining a bunch of Olympic gold medals; never wanted to see a swimming pool again.

I think that playing pool at this level is comparable to being able to play all the Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin and Brahms piano sonatas in front of appreciative audiences in large metropolitan areas. Most top violinists and pianists drop out of normal society at about the same age as top pool players. The big difference is that the violinist who starts thinking about Carnegie Hall when he is fourteen, has already been taking lessons for ten years and goes into a small soundproof room and plays arpeggios, scales, solfeggio’s and works on various pieces of classical music all by himself while guided by a professional teacher over-seeing the progress week by week.

The 14 year old pool prodigy, on the other hand, usually takes up residence in a local pool room where, if he is lucky, he gets mentored by a few of the local top players, who very likely are not necessarily good teachers and do not necessarily give good advice. Then, very likely he is told, as I was told by my first pool instructor, “You have to play for money Arthur if you want to be any good”. (What if the eight-year-old wrestler or pianist was told that he must only play for money?) How did these older good players learn? The same way, but worse because until the last twenty years pool knowledge was as secret as the combination to the safes at Los Alamos. It is much better today but still there is some of that old depression-era guarded attitude about technique and strategy.

The music teacher on the other hand, has learned through a disciplined system of pedagogy passed on generation after generation; this guy studied with So-and-so who studied with So-and-so who studied with Brahms etc. Perhaps this is an analogy, American pool is like jazz and European pool is like classical music. It is only very recently that jazz has become a staple in university music programs. In the past one just found an instrument, hung out with some musicians in New Orleans or Harlem and hopefully, learned some technique. Classical music allows for very little improvisation and mischief and the early years are seldom described as fun. So it is ironic that in pool the early years are fun and later on it is work but in classical music the early years are work and the later years are fun.

Page one of two.
 

arthurbacon

Registered
The Mosconi Cup, part 2

Page 2 of 2

...

For example, I know for a fact, that virtually all classical musicians have fun making music, even Glenn Gould. Look at Yo Yo Ma, arguably the most famous classical musician alive. He LOVES almost any kind of music and plays with Blue Grass, Metal, Country and folk ensembles. Same could be said of Itzhak Pearlman; it almost doesn’t matter what kind of music it is as long as it is music. He will enjoy participating even though his métier is Beethoven and Brahms. I grew up in a family of classical musicians and it seems as though every week people came over and after dinner played trios and quartets late into the night. My parents were professionals but many of the guests were doctors and professors who knew how to play the fiddle or cello and share the camaraderie of working through a Mozart quartet together. Professionalism should not preclude FUN.

My point is that guys who play only for the high stakes money games might not be suited for the long haul of tournament play. In fact, one of my friends, a very high stakes player eschews tournaments altogether for two reasons: one he does not want to be “known” and lose the opportunity to sneak up on some high rolling sucker, and secondly, he says, “Why play all day for two days for two thousand dollars when I can make twice that much in one night gambling”?

Perhaps it is worthwhile taking a look at snooker in England if that might offer any interesting clues. I do not pretend to know the ins and outs of English snooker but I have heard that it is highly regulated and NOT easy to get into the highest category of competition. One thing I do know is that Ronnie O’Sullivan is a multi-millionaire while Shane van Boening owns a duplex in the Dakotas. Snooker is a national pastime in England. I was in London once during the world championships and it seemed as though every “tele” was tuned to the snooker games. Ronnie O’Sullivan is a household name in England. If you were to query a hundred people on Fifth Avenue in Manhattan about a guy named Shane Van Boening they would think you were talking about some German WWII general or perhaps an abstract expressionist painter.

Snooker is highly governed in England. I heard that Corey Deuel once tried to get into the snooker scene and was rebuffed. I love Corey and do not take this (rumor) as gospel but it is part of the conversation we are having right now: American pool versus English snooker (and, by extension English eight ball and American-style pool). One thing for sure is that you will not play a serious snooker match in England, or anywhere else for that matter, wearing blue jeans and a polo shirt. I can just hear the unflattering epithets and guffaws right now, “What an a-hole. What difference does it make what I wear as long as the balls find gravity”! Right, and how come Ronnie is driving a Ferrari and Earl is a houseman in Manhattan? And meanwhile, those guys are beating us.

My point is this: here in the United States, if you want to become a baseball player, wrestler or swimmer we have associations, schools, coaches and school programs that will guide you from the time you can walk all the way through college after which you can turn pro. We have long traditions of coaching providing the youngster with the latest technology, nutrition, weight training and coaching to get you to the top. England and several European countries have similar programs in snooker and pool. I put this question to a soccer buddy of mine; I mean, I was wondering which background would prove more victorious in World Cup competition, the sort of dirt field, back lot, helter-skelter, up-by-your-own-bootstraps soccer like we find in undeveloped countries such as Cameroon, Gana and Brazil or the highly organized national training programs we see in England and Europe and he just said, “Well, look at the last several World Cups”. Europe. Discipline.

I am reminded of an interesting sports-coaching situation fifty years ago that might have some relevance to this discussion. The United States came to competitive skiing rather late. In the Fifties and Sixties it was all the Austrians and then the French (remember Jean Claude Killy?). In the Fifties and Sixties the university of Denver won 13 national ski championships under the supervision of a former German army skier named Willy Schaeffler, so of course, about 1970, the United States Olympic Committee figured that he would make a great national ski team coach. Willy had some VERY strict notions about skiing and he was no friend of hot dogs. The most singular feature of his coaching system was, like ALL great coaches, a firm belief in fundamentals and the first week of training every winter was for the whole team to go back to basics doing the same things every beginner does over and over. You would look up the mountain and see twenty guys slowly coming down the “bunny slope” back and forth in perfect unison with each other as they made long, balletic sweeping turns with the most elementary techniques. No high speed, jumps or hot dog stuff for the whole week and if you didn’t like it, aufwiedersehen!

We all thought Willy would make a great national team coach but it did not work out because American skiers were all loners and mavericks and not used to strict discipline and they rebelled at his rigorous (Germanic) coaching methods. What many people also did not realize was that Willy had won all those collegiate championships using many European (scholarship) skiers, especially from Norway which had a strenuous national training program. The top American skiers had all learned on their own, paid their own expenses, driven their own cars, slept on friend’s couches and done things their way (remember when the Olympics USED to be an amateur competition?). So when coach Schaeffler was in charge of a team of just American mavericks they rebelled at his old-school, Teutonic coaching/teaching methods and the whole thing was a disaster. I can’t help but wonder if something like this happened with the US Mosconi team this year. I can’t quite picture some of our highly individualistic American road players doing Hohman/Appleton-type drills, eating prescribed low-fat meals, running laps and weight training.

However, having said all this, were the American players to play their European counterparts for five thousand dollars a game using their own money, I would not hesitate to bet on the Yanks.
 

marek

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
For some reason, American pool and beer are like peanut butter and jelly. I bought my table from a guy who said he gave up drinking so he “didn’t need his pool table any more”. I say what? If there is money involved I LOVE it when a guy says, “I always play better after a few beers”. Hey, buy this man another beer! Come on; would we really like it if our brain surgeon said, “I always operate better after a few beers”? Good pool is as delicate and demanding of ALL our faculties as brain surgery. A cursory glance at the advertisements in any pool magazine will attest to the symbiotic link between pool and pilsner in America. I have never heard of such a link between beer and any other sport. This is not good for pool my friends. As an aside, I did try going to wrestling practice once in college drunk and it was not good. I might have a wee bit “looser” but certainly not smarter or stronger. Anybody who thinks they play pool better after a few beers needs to read about the effects of alcohol on various parts of the brain. It makes about as much sense as smoking cigarettes for a long distance runner. If alcohol really made one play better then I would expect every brain surgeon, diamond cutter and Rolex maker to have a flask of Jack Daniels in his back pocket. I do not mean to totally discount the phenomenon that SOME people SEEM to play better pool after a few beers but I would strenuously argue that that is a psychological issue.

Very good read. I will throw my own experience of playing under influence. First thing to mention - I dont drink alcohol at all, second thing to mention - I am 120kg big so dont try this at home kids! :rolleyes::eek: Few years back I was at 2-day pre-christmas tournament which had lots of fun in it. At the end of the first day I was challenged to play small money game by quite strong opponent but as I was favourite to win anyway I was giving up 4 games on a wire in race to 8, 9ball, winners break, no magic rack (9ft table of course). We were waiting for the table to free up when I was invited to have a shot of vodka with other guys to celebrate upcoming christmas and new year. I was hesitant but I didnt want to spoil the fun and...I ended up having two shots of vodka... :rolleyes: All of the sudden there was a free table and we went to play. At first I tried to adjust the handicap as I felt how that alcohol got into my head FAST ;) But my opponent refused and said that the game was set already. I was like "what the heck I will kill him anyway", that alcohol has grown me some muscles in my head.:eek::thumbup: I broke the first rack and had this crazy cutshot at 1. I went for it and missed it by a mile. My opponent stop smiling and ran that table out..mind you it wasnt your easy roadmap, it was tough out as hell - 0:5. All of the sudden it came to me - I was trapped in a real bad game with no way out but forward. And while i felt my body being quite euphoric and my arm very relaxed from the vodka my mind became stone-cold..no emotions, no fear, no nothing. My opponent broke the next rack and played push-out. I made long bank and ran out. And I ran another one ..and again..and again..and again. At 5:5 I played push out which my opponent gave me back...and I ran out the set 8:5. My opponent looked little bit shell-shocked. But as I went to unscrew my cue he yelled at me "what are you doing? you are obliged to play revenge-set" to which I replied "we didnt arrange anything more than one set but ok, I dont care, lets play another one". Same conditions - 4 games on the wire race to 8. I broke and ran 5 racks before I missed..well missed..I didnt pot the ball because half of the pathway to the pocket was obstructed by another ball :p He ran out to 5:5, broke the rack and played push-out. I made crazy cutshot and ran the set out again 8:5. All the time there were about 20 people watching, even the guys on adjacent tables stopped playing and just enjoyed the show. When I finished I realized that I won those 2 sets together in the timespan of 25 mins making just 1 miss in each set. I basically played perfect pool with flawless position play and shotmaking with Usain Bolt speed. I know that the main thing was total absence of any fear or doubts with only one thing on my mind - to win the game - it was basically the first time when I realized how MUCH all those negative thoughts and emotions were impairing my game. Also I was fully aware that I dont want to become a slave to the alcohol when dealing with those emotions. All in all I believe that alcohol can help you to unlock some knowledge about yourself but it is not the cure. Yes, I played my super A-game under influence but I think it was that rare example where I hit the exact "sweet spot" with the amount of alcohol.
I also realized one thing about myself - while I rarely play for the money as I perfectly fit the characteristics of "european tournament warrior" I play about 20% better in money matches than in tournament play in those rare cases I play for the money. I think it has to do something with the reasons why I play, what I want to achieve...while I dont care as much for money won I DO care about the trophies and fame that comes along so maybe a money match brings less pressure to me compared to tournament play. Go figure.. :cool:
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Very good read. I will throw my own experience of playing under influence. First thing to mention - I dont drink alcohol at all, second thing to mention - I am 120kg big so dont try this at home kids! :rolleyes::eek: Few years back I was at 2-day pre-christmas tournament which had lots of fun in it. At the end of the first day I was challenged to play small money game by quite strong opponent but as I was favourite to win anyway I was giving up 4 games on a wire in race to 8, 9ball, winners break, no magic rack (9ft table of course). We were waiting for the table to free up when I was invited to have a shot of vodka with other guys to celebrate upcoming christmas and new year. I was hesitant but I didnt want to spoil the fun and...I ended up having two shots of vodka... :rolleyes: All of the sudden there was a free table and we went to play. At first I tried to adjust the handicap as I felt how that alcohol got into my head FAST ;) But my opponent refused and said that the game was set already. I was like "what the heck I will kill him anyway", that alcohol has grown me some muscles in my head.:eek::thumbup: I broke the first rack and had this crazy cutshot at 1. I went for it and missed it by a mile. My opponent stop smiling and ran that table out..mind you it wasnt your easy roadmap, it was tough out as hell - 0:5. All of the sudden it came to me - I was trapped in a real bad game with no way out but forward. And while i felt my body being quite euphoric and my arm very relaxed from the vodka my mind became stone-cold..no emotions, no fear, no nothing. My opponent broke the next rack and played push-out. I made long bank and ran out. And I ran another one ..and again..and again..and again. At 5:5 I played push out which my opponent gave me back...and I ran out the set 8:5. My opponent looked little bit shell-shocked. But as I went to unscrew my cue he yelled at me "what are you doing? you are obliged to play revenge-set" to which I replied "we didnt arrange anything more than one set but ok, I dont care, lets play another one". Same conditions - 4 games on the wire race to 8. I broke and ran 5 racks before I missed..well missed..I didnt pot the ball because half of the pathway to the pocket was obstructed by another ball :p He ran out to 5:5, broke the rack and played push-out. I made crazy cutshot and ran the set out again 8:5. All the time there were about 20 people watching, even the guys on adjacent tables stopped playing and just enjoyed the show. When I finished I realized that I won those 2 sets together in the timespan of 25 mins making just 1 miss in each set. I basically played perfect pool with flawless position play and shotmaking with Usain Bolt speed. I know that the main thing was total absence of any fear or doubts with only one thing on my mind - to win the game - it was basically the first time when I realized how MUCH all those negative thoughts and emotions were impairing my game. Also I was fully aware that I dont want to become a slave to the alcohol when dealing with those emotions. All in all I believe that alcohol can help you to unlock some knowledge about yourself but it is not the cure. Yes, I played my super A-game under influence but I think it was that rare example where I hit the exact "sweet spot" with the amount of alcohol.
I also realized one thing about myself - while I rarely play for the money as I perfectly fit the characteristics of "european tournament warrior" I play about 20% better in money matches than in tournament play in those rare cases I play for the money. I think it has to do something with the reasons why I play, what I want to achieve...while I dont care as much for money won I DO care about the trophies and fame that comes along so maybe a money match brings less pressure to me compared to tournament play. Go figure.. :cool:
WOW!! Think you may have just won the 2017 LongestRun-onSentenceoftheYearAward.
 

Runnintable

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Russ has a point

You are WAY over-thinking this.

Europe has tons of private billiard clubs that provide places for kids to play, as European governments don't micromanage the shit out of businesses that serve alcohol. American has pool halls failing around every corner.

Europe also has a league system that encourages full effort on every shot, with the opportunity to win fame and glory by promoting successful teams to compete against the next level of competition. American has APA, which actively encourages sandbagging, or you have to split up a team due to point caps. American pool is 100% about the almighty dollar. European pool is 100% about competition and sportsmanship.

This isn't about training. It is about lack of competitive environment to develop our players in. Europe simply has a much more developed pool infrastructure, that does not rely on commercial businesses to give people places to play. They HAVE them, sure, but for every commercial "pool hall", you have three private clubs funded by membership fees.

If America had such an environment, there would be more good players on average. With more good players on average, there would be more pool tournaments. With more pool tournaments attended by good players, to rise to the top, better fundamentals would be a requirement, and the top talent would develop these fundamentals.

Our top player's lack of fundamentals is simply a byproduct of rising to the top of a very small talent pool.

Short Bus Russ

I agree with Russ's statement, wish there was an easy solution.
 

BmoreMoney

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've said this several times and I will once more: I believe if Mosconi was winner tale all it would make a huge difference with lighting a fire and invoking the killer instinct. I'd say let air and hotel be taken care of for the players but no more of this $10,000/$20,000 crap. Just say the winners get the $30k and the loser gets zip, zilch, nada! A lot of people are saying this is not cool etc, more on this in a bit.

Now with that being said, I DO NOT believe their is a huge difference in skill between US and Europe on the whole. I dont think there's really much of a difference at all. The MC is very very short races played between some of the highest level pros in the world. ANYTHING can happen in short races like that. Hell, even I would have a chance at a set here and there lol! Are we on a horrendous losing streak? Yes, yes we are. However, it could jist as easily go the other way forthe next ten years - just as occurred in the span prior to our current losing streak. Now indont wan this to be about making excuses but reality is reality. Amd the reality is the break format HEAVILY favors the Euros. With the races as short as they are, the break is the biggest thing in he world and that has basically been taken away from us.

Now back to the winner take all : I'm not being " mean ", not trying to take food out of our pros mouths, his the opposite actually. When you know before ever even getting in the car or plane to go there that you WILL BE definitely getting a $10,000 payday as long as you have a pulse....... Well that is not the biggest motivation. That's not to speak bad about any of them, but that's pretty much human nature and any of us could possibly fall victim to it. We apparently are slow starters too and that's dooming in a short format. I know all about slow starting myself. Always been a.problem for me. I dont do tourneys so that's pretty never a concern for me. As to action matches, well I pretty much concede I'm starting out a set down lol. Before anyone recommends playing ahead sets, no thanks. I cant stand them these days. I'd rather play a short race where someone wins and someone loses some money and either way its not taking all day.

Back to the money - if it were to be WTA then that would be what's needed to light the fire and help combat the slow starts. Before someone asks, the reason that would work better for these pros than t does for me? That's easy - the skill level between they and I are miles apart and they can and should be able to do things that I cant / dont. As I said, it surely will bring out the killer instinct needed. Airfare / hotel ok I can see that. If not as a perc for playing one of the biggest pool events in the world, it is almost definitely needed logistically. Especially when talking about going to London but amy kind of no trip in general many of the players may just outright not be able to afford to go and it is a necessity. I will even go a little further. Maybe and I do mean maybe - at the VERY VERY most MAYBE give the loser $2000 that they could use for the weeks worth of expenses ( food etc ).

So, I think winner take all is just what we need to give us a spark and turn this thing around. Just as importantly; I know that our boys we send up against the Eurotrash is every bit as good as they are amd there is NO huge gap in skill as many have been saying!!!!!!
 

marek

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Now with that being said, I DO NOT believe their is a huge difference in skill between US and Europe on the whole. I dont think there's really much of a difference at all. The MC is very very short races played between some of the highest level pros in the world. ANYTHING can happen in short races like that.

Mosconi Cup 2017 overall score:
Europe 68
USA 47
Thats not much of a short race, is it? :rolleyes:
Or you can look at it another way - Europe has much bigger talent pool to choose from atm, they are WAY better mentally prepared for such high pressure event because of the much tighter competition in Europe. Apart from SVB Europe has slightly better shot makers because of better fundamentals, they play tighter positions because of structured drill practice regime, they are much better tacticians because of super-competitive Eurotour (its just matter of survival)....if you think there is not much of a difference in skill level then you just dont understand the game enough.
Build a new organizing body in USA that unite all the regional tours, build a new structured instructional program for children and places they can practice and play against each other and MAYBE then you will reap the fruits of such effort in about 15 years or so. Until then MC will be one-way story I am afraid..
 

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
I've said this several times and I will once more: I believe if Mosconi was winner tale all it would make a huge difference with lighting a fire and invoking the killer instinct. I'd say let air and hotel be taken care of for the players but no more of this $10,000/$20,000 crap. Just say the winners get the $30k and the loser gets zip, zilch, nada! A lot of people are saying this is not cool etc, more on this in a bit.....

If Matchroom announced on Monday that the Mosconi was now 30,000 winner take all, the realist in me says that by Tuesday the Americans and Europeans would agree on a 10,000 saver so the money would be back to 20,00 and 10,000. But let's say there was no saver and it truly was winner take all ... I'm certain that this would make fewer American players care whether they made the team. At very least, making the team now carries a 10,000 award that goes away with winner take all. It takes a lot of invested money (meaning tournament travel and participation costs) to try to make the team, but those that spend the money deserve what can reasonably be viewed as a recoup of their investment. Personally, I think winner take all would be a step backward and could hurt participation in Mosconi ranking events among the most elite American pros.

Just as importantly; I know that our boys we send up against the Eurotrash is every bit as good as they are amd there is NO huge gap in skill as many have been saying!!!!!!

Unfortunately, there is a HUGE skills gap. Other than future Hall of Famer SVB, American performance in the last few years in rotation games has been terrible across the board in events having deep international fields, whether it is WPA Events, Matchroom events, or the two American events that have deep, international fields. the Derby City 9-ball and the US Open 9-ball. This is not, as you seem to suggest, a cyclical aberration that belies the equality of the players across international boundaries. In fact, US players collectively hit bottom in 2017, failing to win any of the Derby City 9-ball, either of the two Turning Stone events, any of the WPA or Matchroom events, even failing to have a top three finisher in the US Open 9-ball, where Shaw, Kaci and Sanchez-Ruiz swept the medals.

When one watches the Mosconi, it becomes clear, year after year, that there is no area of the game in which American performance is superior to that of Europe, whether it's the break, pocketing, position play, safety play, kicking, jumping, use of two-way shots, or general strategy. No doubt, some of this is a shot conceptualization (meaning shot design and selection) gap, but conceptualization and execution are the two skills that are paramount in our game. The gap in conceptualization skills, in my opinion, is as great as the gap in execution skills.

Do the math. The last five Mosconi Cups combined consist of 75 matches played, 55 of them won by Europe and 20 won by the US. If the teams were truly equal, the odds against Team USA winning 20 matches or fewer of the 75 played would be more than 30,000 to 1 against.

I fear that the biggest threat to the closing of the gap between American pros and others is the incomprehensible insistence of some that there is no skills gap to address. America needs to own the skills gap, and until it does, nothing will jump-start the badly needed re-dedication to all-around excellence in competition, not even a 100,000 per player winner take all Mosconi.
 

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
Thank you, Arthur Bacon, for your interesting post.

Interesting that you mentioned Vince Lombardi. One of Lombardi's most famous quotes is "Winning is a habit. Unfortunately, so is losing." Perhaps he was anticipating American futility at the Mosconi.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I would like to offer some thoughts as to why the United States is not winning Mosconi Cups. There are many reasons of course and for one person to pretend to have all the answers would be presumptuous. Of course we can win again but how?....
An interesting read.

I have heard the usual American attitude towards pool referred to as "gambletard". I'm afraid that fits too well.

A few minor points....

American pool publications would be absolutely delighted if a pilsner or even a brown ale were to pay to grace their pages with an advertisement. Total number of alcohol-related adds in the last three issues of Billiards Digest: zero. Total number of beer ads in the latest issue of the regional pool newspaper, On The Break News: zero, although there are a lot of small ads for bars that have tournaments. At one time there was a Gordon's Gin series for the women's tour. I bet they would like to have it back.

A related point about where pool is in American culture is the vanishing University rec center. When I learned to play, a lot of students were introduced to the game right along with calculus and medieval history. Those tables have mostly turned into Starbucks and weight machines.

Corey was not rebuffed by the snooker establishment. Snooker has a "Q School" or qualifying tournament system that anyone can sign up for. He has done so at least twice. If you qualify, you get a two-year pro tour card. He has not qualified yet. I think that Alex Pagulayan has also not qualified but did finish high enough one year that he got to fill in an empty spot in a tournament.

As for your point:

... until the last twenty years pool knowledge was as secret as the combination to the safes at Los Alamos.

I think the first two really useful books on how to play pool were Martin (1977) and Byrne (1978) so it has been about 40 years that useful sources of info were widely available. By contrast, there were lots of good books about how to play carom billiards and snooker available decades earlier. However, most of the top players I know have never bothered to read what is available. Useful techniques that have been in print for decades are news to them. Jean Balukas can be excused, I think, for saying she had never read a book about pool. When she learned to play there was no material comparable to the value of seeing 100-ball runners every day.

As for the Los Alamos part, perhaps you were making a sly reference to:
Learn How Richard Feynman Cracked the Safes with Atomic Secrets at Los Alamos
Related to which, with a little info and practice, you can crack the standard Master combination padlock in about five minutes. Locks only keep out the stupid thieves.
 

arthurbacon

Registered
Ciao Bob,

Thank you for correcting a couple errors in my piece. Referring to pilsner and pool I guess I was thinking of lots of ads that show svelte girls holding cues with what seems to me to be some sort of sports bar scene in the background. These might just be cue-maker's ads or some other billiard accoutrements.

Regarding the "secrets" of pool, I thought, until very recently that, most of the important stuff was out there for anybody who could read but just a couple weeks ago one of the older good One Hole players in Seattle told me that he there are still a ton of secrets the top guys are loath to divulge. I was surprised to hear this and you would know more than I but that is why I mentioned it. I first picked up a cue stick in Buenos Aires in 1962 and hit some balls around on one of those funny tables without holes. I seem to remember a small book by the inimitable Mr. Hoppe but little else to help me navigate the tables in my university rec center when I returned to the States.

Yeah, you are right about Los Alamos. What a great read ; Surely You're Joking Mr. Feynman.

Cheers, Arthur
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
... a couple weeks ago one of the older good One Hole players in Seattle told me that he there are still a ton of secrets the top guys are loath to divulge. ...
Since most of those players are not familiar with what's been published, it's hard to say whether a secret is a secret or that it was in Martin 40 years ago without knowing what the "secret" is.

The other problem is that some of the "secrets" are wrong. Many aiming systems fit into that class.

As an example, the "opposite 3" diamond system is very useful at one pocket, it is not widely known, it is easy to describe in five minutes, it has been in print multiple times, it is not quite right and there is an easy way to make it much more accurate.

Another example is that a diagram illustrating squirt, swerve and backhand english was published in 1839, but some players still think those things either don't exist or are secrets.
 
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Island Drive

Otto/Dads College Roommate/Cleveland Browns
Silver Member
J. Chua

Good analysis Stu. If I said that they would want to crucify me! :thumbup:

Here's a quote from a young man that gets it....

''I hope that you will not treat billiards as just a cash cow of sort.
You didn’t start playing or dreamed of becoming a champion because of money!
The sport isn’t just about money. It is definitely more than that!”


Sounds like a European/Efren/Busty mindset
 

jalapus logan

be all. and supports it to
Silver Member
Here's a quote from a young man that gets it....

''I hope that you will not treat billiards as just a cash cow of sort.
You didn’t start playing or dreamed of becoming a champion because of money!
The sport isn’t just about money. It is definitely more than that!”


Sounds like a European/Efren/Busty mindset

I would only add that this sport is about anything other than the money, unless you like being poor
 
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