Skill level rating system!

realkingcobra

realkingcobra

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Silver Member
If golf and bowling, which are individual skill level games played, and to play them at ''PRO'' level, a skill level test is required to determine ''PRO'' level of play, why isn't some sort of skill level testing required for pool in order to determine what exactly is ''PRO'' level, ''SEMI PRO'' and all other amateurs?

Without some kind of skill level testing, pool will never have a ''PRO'S ONLY'' tour system, and will for ever be destined to be a mixed bag of players;)
 
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Golf and bowling can reliably go by the scores. To be comparable to pool, in golf you would have to be able to suddenly stick a tree right in the middle of the fairway, bowling, your opponent can stick some pins somewhere along the lane that you now have to avoid.

Too many variables in pool to just go by the score to see who is better. Plus, in pool, the other guy might not even get a chance to shoot!
 
Wouldn't a skill level test answer that question in everyone's mind, ''I'm thinking about going ''PRO'', how good do I have to play to be considered a ''PRO''? Answer is, if your skill level test score puts you in the top 256 positions already filled, then you're ''PRO'' enough to bump someone down and take their place as a ''PRO'' in the next event;)
 
realkingcobra said:
If golf and bowling, which are individual skill level games played, and to play them at ''PRO'' level, a skill level test is required to determine ''PRO'' level of play, why isn't some sort of skill level testing required for pool in order to determine what exactly is ''PRO'' level, ''SEMI PRO'' and all other amateurs?

Without some kind of skill level testing, pool will never have a ''PRO'S ONLY'' tour system, and will for ever be destined to be a mixed bag of players;)
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Several rating systems have been developed. Most are based on single-player drills. I think much better is the system described by Mike Page of Fargo Billiards. He did an analysis of the performances of players at the 2004 (or so?) World Championships and got a set of rankings based on the match results. Such a system -- it needs to have a good foundation in statistics, which Mike's system does -- can be applied to any set of tournament results. Provided that someone is willing to enter the data, of course.
 
Neil said:
Golf and bowling can reliably go by the scores. To be comparable to pool, in golf you would have to be able to suddenly stick a tree right in the middle of the fairway, bowling, your opponent can stick some pins somewhere along the lane that you now have to avoid.

Too many variables in pool to just go by the score to see who is better. Plus, in pool, the other guy might not even get a chance to shoot!
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I'm not talking about playing against any one else while taking the test;)
Here's an example, ''WORLD BANK POOL CHAMPIONSHIP'' PRO'S ONLY!!! In order to qualify, each player is required to bank as many balls as possible, and has 200 shots to do so on a Diamond 10ft ProAm, and in order to qualify for the event, their score must be in the top 256 highest scores posted;) this would separate all those who want to play, from those that should play;) leaving only the best of the best to compete:grin:
 
Ditto on Fargo...

Fargo is a pretty good way to go to see where you stack up, if you really want/need to know (so's Allen Hopkins' skills challenge, which is almost identical). The reason there's no comprehensive skills test or universal handicap system like in golf is that (a) pool as an overall game isn't points based, (b) there's no recognized governing body to say what a pro is or isn't and (c) any skills test is only as accurate as the intention of the player is concerned...if it's in a player's best interest to keep his/her rating low, then there's no incentive to bear down and play as hard as he/she can...too much incentive to sandbag. Even the most sophisticated logarithms for handicapping (like APA and others) is manipulated by players all the time. Some players use rating systems as a badge of honor to test themselves, others as a refuge to hide their true speed.
 
Bob Jewett said:
Several rating systems have been developed. Most are based on single-player drills. I think much better is the system described by Mike Page of Fargo Billiards. He did an analysis of the performances of players at the 2004 (or so?) World Championships and got a set of rankings based on the match results. Such a system -- it needs to have a good foundation in statistics, which Mike's system does -- can be applied to any set of tournament results. Provided that someone is willing to enter the data, of course.
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Skill level tests, rating systems are two different things, one tests the players ability to pocket balls, the other tests the players ability to compete in competition;)
 
realkingcobra said:
I'm not talking about playing against any one else while taking the test;)
Here's an example, ''WORLD BANK POOL CHAMPIONSHIP'' PRO'S ONLY!!! In order to qualify, each player is required to bank as many balls as possible, and has 200 shots to do so on a Diamond 10ft ProAm, and in order to qualify for the event, their score must be in the top 256 highest scores posted;) this would separate all those who want to play, from those that should play;) leaving only the best of the best to compete:grin:
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If you add $2,000,000 you may get a thousand entries if the entry is free. Or maybe 37 due to the ubiquity of the 10-foot table.

I thought you were serious for a minute. That minute has passed and I'm better now.:grin-square:
 
swisslife77 said:
Agree on too many variables.
But what about the PAT system? Maybe is not complete, but is a start....

Mind I'm not a fan of it, but at least is something!

Look here:http://www.pat-billiard.com/
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I thought about this too but came to the conclusion that a person with reasonable skill could become an expert on these drills and still be a very weak competition player. If all they did was practice these skills in order to score high on their test it wouldn't accurately reflect their true pool skill.
 
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West Point 1987 said:
Fargo is a pretty good way to go to see where you stack up, if you really want/need to know (so's Allen Hopkins' skills challenge, which is almost identical). The reason there's no comprehensive skills test or universal handicap system like in golf is that (a) pool as an overall game isn't points based, (b) there's no recognized governing body to say what a pro is or isn't and (c) any skills test is only as accurate as the intention of the player is concerned...if it's in a player's best interest to keep his/her rating low, then there's no incentive to bear down and play as hard as he/she can...too much incentive to sandbag. Even the most sophisticated logarithms for handicapping (like APA and others) is manipulated by players all the time. Some players use rating systems as a badge of honor to test themselves, others as a refuge to hide their true speed.
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If ''PRO'' level events were to pay off big, sandbagging would only hurt the players chances of getting PAID!!!
 
Cdryden said:
I thought about this too but came to the conclusion that a person with reasonable skill could become an expert on these drills and still be a very weak competition player. If all they did was practice these skills in order to score high on their test it would accurately reflect their true pool skill.
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At one time I was doing similar skill tests to determine entry levels for a handicapped tournament. Those drills are here. There was one player who did very well on the drills but only played about half that speed in an actual game.
 
realkingcobra said:
If ''PRO'' level events were to pay off big, sandbagging would only hurt the players chances of getting PAID!!!
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Very good point. I think the only way this gets started is by a recognized authority (let's say the BCA for example, because of its historical record) designating a tour, picking the appropriate events to make a tour, then using designated regional tours as feeders. 200 tour cards get issued, with the bottom 15 percent relegated back down to the "minors" to compete the following year to get back on the tour. Then you could use statistical analysis to measure each tour and regional tour player's ability for rating and handicapping purposes.
 
realkingcobra said:
If ''PRO'' level events were to pay off big ...
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I think this is first problem to solve, not which skill test to use. Kevin Trudeau showed us that if you put up millions, lots of people will want to play. Even eight ball.

Or are you planning on financing the event with entry fees from the test-takers?
 
If you want exclusively a top level field, just raise the entry fee.

D players through A and above play every week at the local $5 entry handicapped tournaments.

At a $50 regional event, you will see a few C's, lots of B's and above.

At a $500 entry US Open event, you might see a handful of C's and B's, that just go for the experience. The rest will be A's, and of course the top pros.

At $1000 (like the Tunica 10 foot challenge), you will see nothing but pros and top-pros.
 
Several different skills are needed to play pool including shot making and ability to compete under stress. The way to go about building a test to determine ability would be to design a set of sub-tests (like we do with IQ testing). These sub-tests would be given to a variety of people (heterogeneity is important for many reasons).

The potential set of sub-tests are submitted to a factor analysis to determine the primary factors (something like prime numbers in algebra). Based on the factor analysis and a small set of factors, a regression approach could be used to predict various things including exceptional (professional level) ability.

As with IQ testing various techniques and cut off scores can be determined with one or more sub-tests and an overall score to derive a classification. Discriminant function analysis might yield interesting differences between people at different skill levels.

Such a test could also be used to determine areas of weakness and for diagnostic (coaching) purposes. Pool playing ability is a stable ability (resistant to change) and this means that proposed innovative methods could be easily assessed.

It would be an interesting project and it is surprising that someone has not undertaken to create such a test. Those with some background in statistics could consult with an active psychometrician (someone who currently builds tests) on any reasonable size campus for assistance with design and to avoid the usual problems with this type of applied research. The whole project might take a a few years, and $10 – 50k to construct such an instrument. I would think that one of the major supporters such as Simonis might be approached for a grant.

Sale of the test to coaches and those certified to test could yield a profitable revenue stream.

I have been retired for several years and have no interest in conducting this type of project. However, a reasonably trained scientist witht the consultation of an active psychometrician and the financial assistance of a major commercial player could lead to a real contribution to the field. I have constructed many "tests" for different purposes over the years and I am of the opinion that this could be a significant contribution to the field and it has real monetary potential.

AT one point I thought the IPAT people were going to do this but to date they have not. I suspect that a review of their system and the introcution of some additional tests with their population of users could be quite useful.
 
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I think the accustats TPA was an excellent measurement system, even if it's a little subjective. Does anyone have the exact formula for it?

I miss the days when they bothered tracking this stuff and actually displaying it on screen during the match. The commentators would analyze it and point out stuff like "he has more position errors, but has stayed in it by refusing to miss balls as often as his opponent".

They show all sorts of random stats during football, pool should be able to do this without making it TOO dull for the viewer. I'd be interested in knowing even the small stuff like "on diamonds his shotmaking drops 5%" or "playing overseas he cashes more often" or whatever.
 
Roger Long said:
Didn't Accu-Stats do that?

Roger
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I think Accu-Stats ratings would probably be the best way to go. However, good luck getting people to keep those stats on a regular basis and then have it updated to some kind of national registry.
 
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