Sky and Shane Squabble

Cameron Smith said:
I’ve heard a number of players say their shotmaking was at its peak when they were that young. So maybe execution peaks at a young age. But their results on the table don’t bear this out.

From a competition/tournament play stand point players seem to peak after the age of 30. So although they may have been better shotmakers they become better competitors with age, which is ultimately more important it seems.
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Who (in their respective generation) would be favored over a 21 year old: Filler, Kaci, Big Ko, Little Ko, Archer, Hatch, Siegel, McCready, Deuel, Strickland, etc? Every single player on this list was tops in their generation by the time they were 21 (or earlier).
 
iusedtoberich said:
Who (in their respective generation) would be favored over a 21 year old: Filler, Kaci, Big Ko, Little Ko, Archer, Hatch, Siegel, McCready, Deuel, Strickland, etc? Every single player on this list was tops in their generation by the time they were 21 (or earlier).
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I think Filler and Gorst are your best examples of players on top of the pool world in the 19-21 age range. But they're not really good data points, because they are still young and we have no idea how much better players they can become in the next decade -- I'd bet that they both have not peaked.

Big Ko won the World 9 and 10 ball championships in 2015, when he was 26. Little Ko is already 25 and I would say he hasn't peaked by a long shot.

Kaci is a great player now, but as of yet hasn't won a major. I'd say he's still developing and will get stronger with age.
Strikland definitely did not peak at age 21 -- he kept winning championships for a long time. Same with Siegel and Archer.
Deuel reached the height of his career (I would say) when he won the US Open in 2001 -- he was 24 I believe, which would be past his prime by your account.
 
iusedtoberich said:
Who (in their respective generation) would be favored over a 21 year old: Filler, Kaci, Big Ko, Little Ko, Archer, Hatch, Siegel, McCready, Deuel, Strickland, etc? Every single player on this list was tops in their generation by the time they were 21 (or earlier).
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I'm not sure that's relevant because the claim is their skills peaked at 21. So whether they were beatable or not doesn't matter it's whether they had achieved their peak form by then.

Many/most of the listed players had their biggest years later which suggests they continued to develop and improve as a player. Josh Filler just tied SVB in the top Fargo spot at the age of 23 and I don't think it was because SVB's Fargo declined either. Ronnie O'Sullivan was all but unbeatable for anyone who wasn't named Hendry at the age of 21, but most snooker fans would argue his best competitive years were after his 30's.
 
Nothing wrong with discussing this here.

I wish it was here and not on Fakebook. No responsible adult has a FB account. They use our data to enslave the world. Also they have algorithms to pick winners and losers. Get off Fakebook please! All anti social media is the same except... Except this forum. There is no algorithm just a moderator. There is gossip and tribalism yes but the tribalism is not artificially crated to divide us. We can learn to discuss things like adults and if not..that is life.
We are human....beautifully human...flawed humans. Competitive and combative and REAL! Fuck FB and every evil program like it.

Sorry for the rant and cursing Jenny.
 
Cameron Smith said:
I'm not sure that's relevant because the claim is their skills peaked at 21. So whether they were beatable or not doesn't matter it's whether they had achieved their peak form by then.

Many/most of the listed players had their biggest years later which suggests they continued to develop and improve as a player. Josh Filler just tied SVB in the top Fargo spot at the age of 23 and I don't think it was because SVB's Fargo declined either. Ronnie O'Sullivan was all but unbeatable for anyone who wasn't named Hendry at the age of 21, but most snooker fans would argue his best competitive years were after his 30's.
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We had this discussion many times before. One year I did a thread asking for help calculating all the ages of the winners from the Major events. I think AtLarge came through and showed us stats for the US Open, WPA World championship, and maybe Japan open. The age was much lower than 30. This was even before Filler and Kaci came on the scene I believe, so the age would be even younger now.

I maybe used the word "peak" too precisely. I do agree players can improve a small amount in their mid to late 20's to early 30's. But that improvement is maybe to learn one safe every year they never saw before. Or maybe they are more seasoned in international competition, for example. But the physical act of moving the stick isn't any better. The physical act of moving the stick is developed and pretty much peaks by the time a player is late teens/early 20's. That pyhsical act of moving the stick is needed 100% of the shots. The runout patterns are also developed during this same time period. These two items, physically moving the stick and picking the runout patterns are 95% of the game. Yes, some of the other stuff might get stronger in the later 20's and early 30's, but its such a small part of the game compared to moving the stick and pattern selection, that even if a player improves those items, it won't budge their location on the pecking order.

Lets take the case of Corey at age 21. Maybe the only player in the country at that time that would have been a betting favorite over him was Archer. And guess what, 10 years later Archer was still a betting favorite over Corey. Also in the case of Corey he was probably feared more at age 21 than at age 31. Lets take Sigel and Strickland. Maybe at age 16 Sigel was a favorite over Strickland (as he was older). But by the time Strickland was 21 or 22, there is no way Sigel would have been a betting favorite. Maybe a pickem. Daulton vs Varner in Bank Pool. At Daulton age 16 Varner would have been the favorite. At Daulton age 21 it was probably a pickem. How about McCready since we have a personal line on him via Jam. At Kieth age 16 Buddy maybe could have given him the 8. At age 20 there is no way that would have happened.

Now, I will say the peak "range" of a player is about age 19 to age 35. During that whole range I think the overall speed of a player will be maybe within 2% or 3% variation. After that, things start to go south slowly. Not only for physical reasons, but also for mental reasons. The hunger is not there nearly as strong.
 
Efren told me that he played his strongest rotation 'WAY BEFORE" he came to the US in 1985.
When he was 12 years old, Efren was already one of the top rotation players in Manila.
He said he was at his peak when he was 18-22. from 1972-1976.
But, in the Philippines, he never played One-Pocket or 14.1 or Banks
He learned those games after he came to the US.
 
kkdanamatt said:
Efren told me that he played his strongest rotation 'WAY BEFORE" he came to the US in 1985.
When he was 12 years old, Efren was already one of the top rotation players in Manila.
He said he was at his peak when he was 18-22. from 1972-1976.
But, in the Philippines, he never played One-Pocket or 14.1 or Banks
He learned those games after he came to the US.
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I think that’s hard to judge. He might have thought his game was stronger but at that point outside of The Philippines nobody knew who he was and had not yet tested his game against the best at that time.


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums
 
iusedtoberich said:
But the physical act of moving the stick isn't any better. The physical act of moving the stick is developed and pretty much peaks by the time a player is late teens/early 20's. That pyhsical act of moving the stick is needed 100% of the shots. The runout patterns are also developed during this same time period. These two items, physically moving the stick and picking the runout patterns are 95% of the game.
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I'm not really sure where you're getting this from. Physically moving the stick and runout patterns don't make up 95% of the game. Your mental game is just as important, if not more: your mental stamina, the ability to stay composed under pressure, and your overall knowledge about the game. These skills are also needed on 100% of shots.

And, even just considering the physical side of pool, I don't know why you couldn't improve your fundamentals after the age of 21.

The bottom line is: I can't think of many (if any) pros who had their best year before the age of 21. (Again, excluding Filler and Gorst, since they are still young and we have no idea how much better they will become as they age.) Maybe Efren or Strickland think they played best when they were in their teens, but the numbers don't support that: their best years were way later.
 
iusedtoberich said:
Who (in their respective generation) would be favored over a 21 year old: Filler, Kaci, Big Ko, Little Ko, Archer, Hatch, Siegel, McCready, Deuel, Strickland, etc? Every single player on this list was tops in their generation by the time they were 21 (or earlier).
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Wow, I think only one of them reached their peak by 21. Of course, it's a matter of opinion, but I'd say Filler is probably not at his peak even now. He continues to add and develop skills and in the last year or two has developed his skills in both bank pool and one pocket, and some feel he will rise higher in both disciplines. I don't think Kaci has peaked yet either, but he qualifies as an early bloomer, much like Allen Hopkins. The Kos were not counted as elite until they were in their mid twenties and I doubt Little Ko has peaked yet. Archer, although a fine player by the age of 24, probably reached his peak in 1999 at the age of 31. Strickland was a very strong player early, but I feel he peaked in about 1987 at the age of 26. Sigel's peak came in the early 1980's, when he was in his late 20s. Deuel clearly peaked in 2001 at the age of about 24. SVB's peak was surely in the years 2012-2016, during which he won four of the five US Open 9-ball events, aged 29-33.

I don't have the knowledge to know whether you're right about McCready. Yes, he played great at a young age, but I have no idea when he peaked as a player.

Hatch is the one I might have to agree with. Dennis probably reached his top speed by the age of 19., having run over 300 balls in straight pool as a teenager. He peaked at nine ball later, but he is a player that might qualify as having peaked very young.

Pool is not all physical, and the decision making skills develop far more slowly than the execution skills. Even the rare case of a player such as Pagulayan, who seemed to know nearly all the shots by the time he was 21, does not offer a player who had peaked yet. Surely, Alex peaked in 2004 at age 26.
 
I'm just guessing...but it's hard to beat youth when it comes to eyesight, hand-eye stuff. But there is the intellectual and emotional side of pool, those both improve with age. So, it's hard to compare from person to person. I think a serious player continues to improve until physical problems that can't be medically fixed enter in...then the slide begins. A sad fact of life is that nobody beats father time.
 
tedkaufman said:
If the riff continues—assuming it happened in the first place—I doubt it would continue long. Both are reasonable, very nice guys. Sometimes ribbing can get out of hand or be misinterpreted, especially in text on social media. I expect they will resolve it before Mosconi Cup. After all, Shane is an assistant captain, so I’m sure he’d want it past them before the match.
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Does it really matter as far as the Mosconi Cup is concerned? The US team is going to be huge underdogs for the foreseeable future. I guess you could figure the short races to 5 at least give the US a puncher’s chance.
 
BeiberLvr said:
All I know is I'm pretty darn sure that a 21 year old SVB would never have beaten Orcollo by 50+
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On the other hand, Shane has been beating Dennis by 20-30 game margins in races to 100 since the TAR days 10 years ago. Roughy the same margin percentage wise.
 
iusedtoberich said:
We had this discussion many times before. One year I did a thread asking for help calculating all the ages of the winners from the Major events. I think AtLarge came through and showed us stats for the US Open, WPA World championship, and maybe Japan open. The age was much lower than 30. ...
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Here's that list mentioned by iusedtoberich -- WPA 9-Ball and US Open 9-Ball champions by age. I first posted it in a 2017 thread, but I have updated it to include the winners since that thread -- Biado (2017), Filler (2018), Gorst (2019), and Ouschan (2021) for the WPA 9-Ball event and Shaw (2017) and Filler (2019) for the US Open 9-Ball.

WPA World 9-Ball Championship

15-20 -- 2 (Wu, Gorst)
21-25 -- 3 (Archer, Filler, Hohmann)
26-30 -- 11 (Strickland, Strickland, Chao, Ortmann, Souquet, Archer, Takahashi, Immonen, Pagulayan, Ko, Ouschan)
31-35 -- 5 (Chao, Alcano, Peach, Hohmann, Biado, Ouschan)
36-40 -- 3 ( Akagariyama, Appleton, Feijen)
41-45 -- 3 (Okumura, Reyes, Strickland)
46-50 -- 1 (Bustamante)
51-55 -- 1 (Varner)
Total -- 30

US Open 9-Ball Championship

15-20 -- 0
21-25 -- 5 (Sigel, Strickland, Deuel, Van Boening, Filler)
26-30 -- 14 (Hopkins, Roberts*, Sigel, Hopkins, Howard, Strickland, Kennedy, Morris, Owen, Pagulayan, Van Boening, Van Boening, Cheng, Shaw)
31-35 -- 13 (Mizerak, Sigel, Howard, Strickland, Pierce, Archer, Souquet, Jones, Schmidt, Appleton, Appleton, Van Boening, Van Boening)
36-40 -- 6 (Reid, Reyes, Strickland, Strickland, Immonen, Immonen)
41-45 -- 2 (Varner, Varner)
46-50 -- 1 (Hall)
51-55 -- 2 (Lebron, Hall)
Total -- 43

Distribution for the two events combined

15-20 -- 2 (3%)
21-25 -- 8 (11%)
26-30 -- 25 (34%)
31-35 -- 19 (26%)
36-40 -- 9 (12%)
41-45 -- 5 (7%)
46-50 -- 2 (3%)
51-55 -- 3 (4%)
Total -- 73

Note -- The age used here is year of event minus year of birth. For any players whose birthday occurred between the date of the event and the end of that calendar year, their actual age last birthday on the date of the event was 1 year less than I used.

*The age used for Louie Roberts (29 in 1979) is an estimate, as I have not yet found a reliable source for his year of birth.
 
who should MC alternates be?

with covid still raging or starting to rage in new areas

would any female players be nominated for MC team?
 
smoooothstroke said:
Nothing wrong with discussing this here.

I wish it was here and not on Fakebook. No responsible adult has a FB account. They use our data to enslave the world. Also they have algorithms to pick winners and losers. Get off Fakebook please! All anti social media is the same except... Except this forum. There is no algorithm just a moderator. There is gossip and tribalism yes but the tribalism is not artificially crated to divide us. We can learn to discuss things like adults and if not..that is life.
We are human....beautifully human...flawed humans. Competitive and combative and REAL! Fuck FB and every evil program like it.

Sorry for the rant and cursing Jenny.
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To your point, I highly recommend the film, The Social Dilemma. It came out early this year without a lot of fanfare. It lays it all out there, told to us directly by former top brass at places like FB, Twitter, Instagram, Google, etc. It's eye opening to say the least.

Back to the original discussion. Keith was a freak of nature, certainly one of the best players in the country/world by the age of 18. I think he would admit he played his absolute best pool from 17 to 21. Likewise, Dennis Hatch was a force to be reckoned with before age 20. Did he improve after that, I'm not so sure. Stu would be a better judge of that than me. Allen Hopkins also was a great player by age 19, taking on all comers at any game and often giving spots to ertswhile champions and beating them. I think his One Pocket game only got better with age and his skill at other games remained at it's highest level well into his 40's. Cole was another young gun who may have played his best pool as a teenager and early 20's. By age 18 he was hopping planes to fly back East and challenge top players. I'm not sure he ever played any better than he did back then. Jim Rempe was another young wunderkind (well known by age 16-17), but like Hopkins he remained a top player for decades.
 
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