Slip Stroke
- Thread starter BuddyWing
- Start date
prettiest stroke I ever saw
Blackjack sent me video of a stroke about a year ago. Makes me crazy that I can't remember who the bygone player was that had it. Prettiest stroke I ever saw. It seemed like some slight of hand magic was going on. I don't remember if it was a traditional slip stroke or not.
The only reason I post this is so that Blackjack might see it and either post or send me the info again. That stroke was so beautiful I was tempted to try to learn it but I suspect it was years in the making.
Hu
Blackjack sent me video of a stroke about a year ago. Makes me crazy that I can't remember who the bygone player was that had it. Prettiest stroke I ever saw. It seemed like some slight of hand magic was going on. I don't remember if it was a traditional slip stroke or not.
The only reason I post this is so that Blackjack might see it and either post or send me the info again. That stroke was so beautiful I was tempted to try to learn it but I suspect it was years in the making.
Hu
"Cowboy" Jimmy Moore
Hu:
That might've been footage of "Cowboy" Jimmy Moore -- as Blackjack stated in the past he's a big admirer of Jimmy Moore's style and play. Jimmy Moore had probably the longest and most graceful slipstroke of them all. Jimmy was also one of the earliest examples of the CTE method of aiming, and one can plainly see this in action when Jimmy's playing. (He cues up and practice strokes on one side of the cue ball -- as if he's going to apply extreme side english, and then when he fires -- slipstroking in the process -- he goes right through the center of the cue ball.)
I don't have any links handy of Jimmy Moore, but he should be readily found on YouTube, et al. Definitely worth the effort to search him out and watch footage of him playing.
Hope this is helpful, but if not, I'm sure when Dave (Blackjack) gets settled and back online after his move to TX and notices this thread, he'll post a correction.
-Sean
Hu:
That might've been footage of "Cowboy" Jimmy Moore -- as Blackjack stated in the past he's a big admirer of Jimmy Moore's style and play. Jimmy Moore had probably the longest and most graceful slipstroke of them all. Jimmy was also one of the earliest examples of the CTE method of aiming, and one can plainly see this in action when Jimmy's playing. (He cues up and practice strokes on one side of the cue ball -- as if he's going to apply extreme side english, and then when he fires -- slipstroking in the process -- he goes right through the center of the cue ball.)
I don't have any links handy of Jimmy Moore, but he should be readily found on YouTube, et al. Definitely worth the effort to search him out and watch footage of him playing.
Hope this is helpful, but if not, I'm sure when Dave (Blackjack) gets settled and back online after his move to TX and notices this thread, he'll post a correction.
-Sean
Dave's moving to Texas? what part? Inquiring minds want to know.... 
Blackjack moving to TX
Yes, to take care of family business, I believe. Dave announced this in the following thread:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=162427
Sad news, and I hope everything works out for Dave!
-Sean
Dave's moving to Texas? what part? Inquiring minds want to know....
Yes, to take care of family business, I believe. Dave announced this in the following thread:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=162427
Sad news, and I hope everything works out for Dave!
-Sean
Well, I didn't think there was any other term as misunderstood
as 'dead bank' - but apparently there is
By way of introduction, I saw Mosconi play on several occasions, when
he could still run 100s at the drop of a hat. This was in person, not on TV.
All in all, I would estimate I observed him execute about 1,000 shots.
When I say 'observe', I mean a lot more than just casual viewing.
I was a wide-eyed youngster, obsessed with pool, and hanging
on every detail.
With all that said, I feel qualified to state that Willie absolutely
did not play with a slip-stroke. Albeit, he may well have, on rare
occasion, repositioned his hand backward a bit, that doesn't
constitute using a slip-stroke.
By comparision, as others have mentioned Jimmy Moore was the
mother of all slip-strokers. He would slide his hand back on virtually
every shot.
As for the mis-use of the concept of modern, I gotta go along with Rod,
if you want to describe something that has no relation to a slip stroke,
make up a modern, as in 'new' term.
Perhaps the confusion regarding Mosconi is due to the fact he
advocated using a very light grip. You can hear his explaination
on his instructional video.
Dale
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Pat Howey
poolshark52 had a classic slipstroke. A hundred ball runner numerous times and I personally saw a 200+ run once. He loved new cloth and polished balls. He battled plenty with Fusco's, Zuglan, Mike Sigel and was always with his Palmer. He used lots of powder on the grip. Used to 3M pad its off because it would evenyually cake on there. I know he sparred a little with the Florida boys, BlackJack Dave Sapolis and Howard Vickery. Originally from Rochester NY he retired to Florida about 5 years ago and passed on last spring.
Paul Mon
poolshark52 had a classic slipstroke. A hundred ball runner numerous times and I personally saw a 200+ run once. He loved new cloth and polished balls. He battled plenty with Fusco's, Zuglan, Mike Sigel and was always with his Palmer. He used lots of powder on the grip. Used to 3M pad its off because it would evenyually cake on there. I know he sparred a little with the Florida boys, BlackJack Dave Sapolis and Howard Vickery. Originally from Rochester NY he retired to Florida about 5 years ago and passed on last spring.
Paul Mon
I don't think it was Jimmy or Bugs
Sean,
I think I would have remembered if it was Jimmy Moore, a player I am familiar with from Wide World of Sports. Likewise I don't think it was Dave's mentor Cicero, just because I think I would have remembered that. This wasn't one of the "names" I know well unless I am very mistaken. Watching him shoot was almost hypnotic though, I watched the short clip at least a dozen times the first time I saw it.
I do have the message saved, I just don't know if I can search for it easily. I only use Vista casually.
Hu
Sean,
I think I would have remembered if it was Jimmy Moore, a player I am familiar with from Wide World of Sports. Likewise I don't think it was Dave's mentor Cicero, just because I think I would have remembered that. This wasn't one of the "names" I know well unless I am very mistaken. Watching him shoot was almost hypnotic though, I watched the short clip at least a dozen times the first time I saw it.
I do have the message saved, I just don't know if I can search for it easily. I only use Vista casually.
Hu
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This may be who I am looking for
Paul,
This seems like it might be who I am looking for footage of. The name rings a bell. Thanks for something to search on.
Hu
Paul,
This seems like it might be who I am looking for footage of. The name rings a bell. Thanks for something to search on.
Hu
Well, I didn't think there was any other term as misunderstood
as 'dead bank' - but apparently their is
By way of introduction, I saw Mosconi play on several occasions, when
he could still run 100s at the drop of a hat. This was in person, not on TV.
All in all, I would estimate I observed him execute about 1,000 shots.
When I say 'observe', I mean a lot more than just casual viewing.
I was a wide-eyed youngster, obsessed with pool, and hanging
on every detail.
With all that said, I feel qualified to state that Willie absolutely
did not play with a slip-stroke. Albeit, he may well have, on rare
occasion, repositioned his hand backward a bit, that doesn't
constitute using a slip-stroke.
By comparision, as others have mentioned Jimmy Moore was the
mother of all slip-strokers. He would slide his hand back on virtually
every shot.
.........
Dale
Mosconi slid his hand back about 2 inches on most shots, maybe 3 on some shots. He wouldn't slide at all when he was already gripping the cue near its end and probably not on very soft shots. It's hard to see unless you're looking for it, and videos don't show his backhand on except on rare shots.
You can see it at 5:20 and 6:17 in the video below (this is a different video than the one I posted earlier). You can see it on some of the overhead shots also if you look carefully.
http://www.vimeo.com/4957545
As I wrote in English, I was looking for it. I don't know what he did in later years, but in the mid-60s, he didn't slide his right hand rearward on most shots
Dale
Pretty much what I suspected.
At this point I have to ask - who told you that was a slip stroke???
He moves his hand back a bit when he first lines up - then he takes
a short backswing.
NOT a slipstroke.
Have you ever seen Jimmy Moore?
He used a slipstroke.
Dale
It is a slipstroke, just a little one. Jimmy Moore had a big one. If you haven't already, watch that 3rd video that I posted earlier in the thread (the vimeo one) at the time marks cited. He slips on the final backswing by a couple of inches.
As for whether Mosconi used it in the 60's, he did. I have a DVD of a 1963 television match of Mosconi vs. Caras. I just studied it and there were about three shots where it was visible (but pretty grainy). He did the same couple of inches slip as seen in the later videos.
The most pwerful slip stroke I saw was that of Denny Searcy. Some of the things he would do to the cue ball defyed any logic!
I have had this problem all my life and when Playing my best the problem seems to go away! Hillbilly just cringes every time I do it
playing with the slip stroke
I spent an hour working on a slip stroke yesterday. First thing I can say, it's gonna take me a lot longer than an hour to master it! Second thing, it was pure magic the few times I was perfect. The stick glided through my hand as I started back, very smooth transfer from rearward to forward motion, great followthrough without effort since what was basically another practice stroke already gave me four to six inches of followthrough. No more followthrough was really needed but I added maybe that much more.
One thing I noticed right away, it was like I kicked in the afterburners on a jet engine with the slip stroke. If I tried to hit the balls the same speed as a standard stroke I hit them much harder, a definite plus in the days of huge tables and deep cloth, a questionable benefit now. I had to really focus on backing off the gas but when I did beautifully controlled shots were very possible too.
I'd have to put in at least fifty or a hundred hours, maybe hundreds of hours to say for sure but in my opinion the slip stroke is definitely one more way to skin a cat and properly executed is at least the equal of any other stroke. I'm very tempted to work on it just because of how great and perfect it felt the few times I executed it correctly. It did seem like magic.
Hu
I spent an hour working on a slip stroke yesterday. First thing I can say, it's gonna take me a lot longer than an hour to master it! Second thing, it was pure magic the few times I was perfect. The stick glided through my hand as I started back, very smooth transfer from rearward to forward motion, great followthrough without effort since what was basically another practice stroke already gave me four to six inches of followthrough. No more followthrough was really needed but I added maybe that much more.
One thing I noticed right away, it was like I kicked in the afterburners on a jet engine with the slip stroke. If I tried to hit the balls the same speed as a standard stroke I hit them much harder, a definite plus in the days of huge tables and deep cloth, a questionable benefit now. I had to really focus on backing off the gas but when I did beautifully controlled shots were very possible too.
I'd have to put in at least fifty or a hundred hours, maybe hundreds of hours to say for sure but in my opinion the slip stroke is definitely one more way to skin a cat and properly executed is at least the equal of any other stroke. I'm very tempted to work on it just because of how great and perfect it felt the few times I executed it correctly. It did seem like magic.
Hu
There's many ways to get the benefit of the slip stroke...
The main benefit of the slip stroke is that when properly executed it forces you to let the cue do the work. That's one of the things that most people have the biggest difficulty doing. You have to let the cue do the work, if you try to force the cue through the ball, you end up having all sorts of issues, like in your case hu, a lack of power.
What I've been working on with positive success is using tsukamaki (japanese sword hilt wrapping techniques) on top of my leather wrap. This allows me to use a slip style stroke without letting the cue move out of my grip at all.
I'm even considering releasing a line of cues using this principle.
I had some tsukaito lieing around and was thinking about the potential benefits and just tried it. It's worked out really good. I may start a new trend, after all, the japanese sword masters have been using it to keep a proper grip on swords for hundreds if not thousands of years, why won't it work on cues???
Jaden
If someone wants to see pictures let me know, I"ll post some when I get home tonight.
The main benefit of the slip stroke is that when properly executed it forces you to let the cue do the work. That's one of the things that most people have the biggest difficulty doing. You have to let the cue do the work, if you try to force the cue through the ball, you end up having all sorts of issues, like in your case hu, a lack of power.
What I've been working on with positive success is using tsukamaki (japanese sword hilt wrapping techniques) on top of my leather wrap. This allows me to use a slip style stroke without letting the cue move out of my grip at all.
I'm even considering releasing a line of cues using this principle.
I had some tsukaito lieing around and was thinking about the potential benefits and just tried it. It's worked out really good. I may start a new trend, after all, the japanese sword masters have been using it to keep a proper grip on swords for hundreds if not thousands of years, why won't it work on cues???
Jaden
If someone wants to see pictures let me know, I"ll post some when I get home tonight.
sure, post pictures, found a video of a slip stroke myself
Jaden,
By all means, please post pictures. I was thinking about a wrap with a grain that slipped one way and grabbed the other last night when I was working on the slip stroke. One minor note, my initial problem wasn't a lack of power with a slip stroke, it was too much power.
After a lot of digging I finally found video of a slip stroke where you can see the slip stroke pretty good. The video itself is fairly bad especially the first third. Watching it full screen I was starting to get a little seasick. Wayne Norcross owns all of the strokes and uses whichever suits him best for each situation so you will see a slip stroke, stroke-slip, and little or no movement of the stick in the grip hand.
Hu
http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...6e7EYjMqgKlnMiKBw&q=slip+stroke&hl=en&view=2#
Jaden,
By all means, please post pictures. I was thinking about a wrap with a grain that slipped one way and grabbed the other last night when I was working on the slip stroke. One minor note, my initial problem wasn't a lack of power with a slip stroke, it was too much power.
After a lot of digging I finally found video of a slip stroke where you can see the slip stroke pretty good. The video itself is fairly bad especially the first third. Watching it full screen I was starting to get a little seasick. Wayne Norcross owns all of the strokes and uses whichever suits him best for each situation so you will see a slip stroke, stroke-slip, and little or no movement of the stick in the grip hand.
Hu
http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...6e7EYjMqgKlnMiKBw&q=slip+stroke&hl=en&view=2#
Hu:
Apologies I noticed this only now. Also apologies if my post implied you didn't know who Jimmy Moore was -- of course I know you do. Sometimes in the spirit of giving away information ("what's mine, is now yours" is my credo in life), me fleet fingers get carried away, channeling the thoughts to the written text on the screen.
Yup, I do remember that Blackjack tribute video to Pat Howey -- that's the one you were thinking of, no?
-Sean
No I wasn't saying that the slip stroke causes a lack of power...
The slipstroke allows the cue to do the work, the opposite, or trying to force the cue through the CB with your hand and grip will cause you to lose power. A problem with using the slipstroke is that it can be uncomfortable to use out of fear that the cue will get away from you. The grip that I'm using prevents that fear.
But yes, once I get home I'll take some pictures and post them.
It would probably work better if the handle was taken down some, but like I said, I'll probably try making some cues with a more traditional Tsuka type handle on the back of the cue. You see one of the problems of using tsukamaki on a traditional cue with the handle up away from the butt, is that there is no end ring to allow to tie off the tsukaito. I ended up using a rather unorthodox tie-off method and I tied it off at the top most portion of the handle, the opposite of sword tsukamaki.
I'd like to make a cue that is geared more specifically toward using tsukamaki with an end ring that will allow for a proper tie off. I think that a katana theme can also be used for inlays and what not and that it can end up being a beautiful cue. we'll see what I can come up with, if I ever get the time. lol...
Jaden
The slipstroke allows the cue to do the work, the opposite, or trying to force the cue through the CB with your hand and grip will cause you to lose power. A problem with using the slipstroke is that it can be uncomfortable to use out of fear that the cue will get away from you. The grip that I'm using prevents that fear.
But yes, once I get home I'll take some pictures and post them.
It would probably work better if the handle was taken down some, but like I said, I'll probably try making some cues with a more traditional Tsuka type handle on the back of the cue. You see one of the problems of using tsukamaki on a traditional cue with the handle up away from the butt, is that there is no end ring to allow to tie off the tsukaito. I ended up using a rather unorthodox tie-off method and I tied it off at the top most portion of the handle, the opposite of sword tsukamaki.
I'd like to make a cue that is geared more specifically toward using tsukamaki with an end ring that will allow for a proper tie off. I think that a katana theme can also be used for inlays and what not and that it can end up being a beautiful cue. we'll see what I can come up with, if I ever get the time. lol...
Jaden
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