Slow Play

PoolBum

PoolBum

Ace in the side.
Silver Member
I am curious as to what others think about the issue of slow play.

There is no shotclock in pool, but there are I think reasonable expectations as to the pace of play. I myself tend to be a methodical player, and others have complained at times that I play too slowly. On the other hand, I note that a number of the very best players in the world have had similar complaints leveled at them--Jeremy Jones, Gabe Owen, Nick Varner and Johnny Archer immediately come to mind.

I do not think that I do anything that is unnecessary during my routine between shots. I usually walk around to check angles and to plan precisely where I want to leave the cueball. But others seem to think that doing this on each shot is excessive and unnecessary. It seems to me that as the skill level rises, the penalty for mistakes increases dramatically, and one mental error can easily be the difference between winning and losing a match. That is why I take my time and am careful to try and execute a very specific shot with precise cueball locations in mind each and every time I shoot.

What do others think? What is the reasonable expectation for the amount of time taken between shots? What is the reasonable expectation for how meticulous a player should be when planning out a shot and position?

I am also curious as to whether or not others think that playing too slowly can inhibit one's game? There seems to be an optimum pace of play for each player, and finding it can be difficult, but I think it varies from player to player.

Thoughts?
 
PoolBum said:
I am curious as to what others think about the issue of slow play.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

Although I prefer to keep a reasonable pace in a match, sometimes I wish I took more time like you do. Ocassionally I find myself making positonal or tactical mistakes because I didn't take the time to plan the table or the shot well enough. Some angles only are obvious by walking the table.

What drives me nuts is when a player nervously gets up and down repeatedly from every shot once they know what they want to do, afraid to pull the trigger. I won't play them again (unless in a tourney) if they are too fidgety or take too long. It is rare that I run into a player who is so slow that I can't stand playing them, so I doubt you are in that bracket.

Chris
 
I think for the most part slow is OK. Double-J is slow, sure, but I don't think slow enough that it affects play. Even if he takes his time to run 9 balls, the game is still over in a few minutes and his opponent is racking. Same goes for Varner. Souquet is also in this category.... methodical and planning, but just takes enough time to make up his mind before he shoots.

I do however think there are some players that should really speed it up. It's one thing to plan everything out, and another thing to get all psyched out an be afraid to pull the trigger. Archer can fall into this category sometimes. When he's playing loose (for him) he's somewhat slow but nothing obnoxious... but I swear, sometimes he takes literally a few minutes a shot and will get up several times to readdress the cue... and really, he's so damn talented he can just fire that thing in with no problem. He's even acknowledged that recently he's been too careful on the table, and needs to just start finding a groove again and not worry so much. Basavich is also another painfully slow player. At the Bicycle Club in January when he beat Bustamante (hill-hill, race to 11) he took what must have been 2-3 minutes on the last 9-ball which was an easy cut. It was sort of ridiculous.

So yes, take your time. Plan things out, figure out the pattern of the rack. But don't be so hesitant to shoot that it makes it unenjoyable for anyone else to watch. You probably end up sharking yourself more than anything, when those seeds of doubt get planted into your mind and draw your focus away from the actual shot at hand.

That's just my $.02; in the end, it's a game and anyone can play it however they want to. When there's no shot clock, no one is going to force anyone to play lightning quick but I still think there's such a thing as taking too long.
 
PoolBum said:
I am curious as to what others think about the issue of slow play.

I myself tend to be a methodical player, and others have complained at times that I play too slowly.

But others seem to think that doing this on each shot is excessive and unnecessary.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...


You made TWO statements here, "OTHERS have COMPLAINED at times that I play too slowly. And, OTHERS seem to think that doing this on each shot is excessive and unnecessary.

What that's telling me is enough "OTHERS" are pissed off enough to complain repeatedly about your slow play. The "OTHER" of the "OTHERS" are pissed off too, they just haven't openly complained yet.

Something tells me you're downplaying how slow you really are and have attempted to make a case for yourself by throwing in some names of slow pro's to get sympathy. What I think you should do is listen to the "OTHERS" that are complaining and learn to speed it up. Why don't you at least practice like Luc Salvas to shoot and see layouts quickly, then when you actually play it won't be so bad to drive everyone nuts.

I can tell you right now, we'd play one game with that crap and it'd be over...that is unless you were a printing press for money and handing it over...then exceptions could be made. :mad: :mad:
 
Slow play? When you become a PRO or are matching up for BIG jelly beans... '
'slow play' is very different than what the average JOE does at the table on his weekly Team event.

When C level players (for you APA members 3 and 4s and some 5s) 10-15 minute 8 ball games can be considered FAST.

I've witnessed two C level players take 2.5 hours to play a race to 6 (it went hill-hill) in 9 ball. These two players were missing shots with BIH. But, according to each player, they were playing as fast as they could possibly play.

I've also seen a race to 3 in one pocket take 12 minutes.....

Somewhere inbetween those two examples is average.

If your opponent is a slow player, deliberately slow, paintakenly slow, it can only be worsened by (after all the time delaying on the shot) them MISSING the shot. This can take most normal players 'out of their game'. If you let it, it will shark you worse than a cell phone going off during your PAUSE.

Try running a weekly tournament and just cringing each time the notoriously slow players enter. You hope to God.. they don't have to match up against each other in the early rounds. And, usually when two 'slow' players do match up... they slow down. It's maddening.

I've never let slow players bother me. I figure this may be their only match, and they are just trying to get their monies worth.

But, to get specific with an answer to 'slow play' YES, there is a shot clock in tournament play. 30-45 seconds for your table time. Check the World Standard Rules, BCA, Texas Express...

I've had to tell players (especially in One Pocket tournaments) that they had 15 minutes to finish or they would be put on a 30 sec shot clock... funny how that warning speeds things up... I've never had a player complain to me or heard from others, that they lost the match because of a 'slow play' warning.
 
I have had complaints about my slow pace of play, as well. I see LOTS all over the place that shoot a little too fast for their own good. Cue ball goes to hell... They huff and they puff...

However, I'm mostly worried these days about creating a solid rhythm and pre-shot routine. Do you take a whole lot longer on certain shots than you do on others? If that's the case then that might be inhibiting your game. More important than how long you take on each shot is, I think, whether you consistently take about the same time on each shot. If that's the case, there should be no reason for complaints because I doubt you'd take 3 minutes to pocket a hanger cheese.

I also think Danny Basavich's pace of play shouldn't be desired. But neither should Luc Salvas'. Ralph Souquet's though, is no problem. If 'OTHERS' complain about a pace of play like Ralph Souquet's, then, like Drivermaker, I'd use my imagination a little bit and wonder whether they are not complaining about something else. Namely, that they are not getting to the table much except when it's time to kneel...
 
PoolBum said:
I am curious as to what others think about the issue of slow play. ...
Click to expand...
I used to play 14.1 with a guy called "Doc Elliot." I don't know if he still plays or not. He would get down on a shot and take some strokes. He would look back at his stroking hand and see how it was doing, taking a few more strokes while looking back there, being careful not to hit the cue ball. The he would stand up and survey the table again. Then he would chalk again, and get down in position. After he was sure his mechanics were right, including a close inspection of his grip hand again, he would finally pull the trigger.

Now, I don't mind if someone takes 60 seconds to shoot as long as he misses. In fact at one pocket, if I can make the guy scratch his head for five minutes, I'm pretty sure I made a good shot, and he'll probably sell out. But Doc Elliot didn't miss. He would run 70's and 80's at 14.1, each shot like water torture.

If you have a hard time planning your run and executing shots efficiently, you need to work on that on the practice table.

As far as the virtues of playing quickly, I think Walter Lindrum had it right. Someone told him early in his career that he could play slow or fast. If it took him an hour to miss, would he rather have 500 or 1000 points? After that, he was always known for his speed at the table. And by all accounts, he was better than Mosconi and Greenleaf. I think both of those guys played quickly as well.
 
I don't mind when someone takes time on a shot, it's when they take 50 warm up strokes on every shot (Cliff "the grinder" Thorborn).
 
the slowest player that I ever saw was about 2 years ago,,,this guy got down and measured every shot from a dozen angles, chalking his tip all the while,,,just as I thought he was ready to shoot the d@@n cue ball, he took a break and went to the bathroom,,,LOL,,,when he came back, he went through the same ritual again,,,I turned to my buddy and said, "If he goes to the bathroom again, I'm gonna break my stick over his head !",,,had a good laugh and finished the game in about 20 minutes,,,LOL
 
randyg said:
I thought there was a "Shot Clock" in organized pool??????...SPF-randyg
Click to expand...
Only when they are on tv, I believe.
Saw some sliow play by Kid D at last January's tourney at The Bike.
It was painful.
Saw Marcus Chamat and Ralph Souquet play for 3 1/2 hours on a race to 11 9 PM match that ended around 12:30 in the morning. IT was brutal.
I had to stay to watch Efren-Pagulayan match which ended around 2 AM. :rolleyes: But, the two went through racks like I go through a In n Out burger.
 
bobroberts said:
I thought the womens tour was on the clock!
Click to expand...

Well, sort of, Bob, but the WPBA system is best of all. All televised matches are on the shot clock, but it's the system for the untelevised matches that impresses me.

At a WPBA event, you'll see that they nearly always stays on schedule. Why? Because of the shot clock. In WPBA races to nine (the race length in the non-TV rounds), in any match where eight racks are not completed in half the match's allotted time, both players go on the shot clock for the remainder fo the match. Hence, if a match is scheduled to last two hours, if it's 4 - 3 after an hour, the match goes on the shot clock. This helps to maintain the match schedule, which is important for the fans.
 
PoolBum said:
I am curious as to what others think about the issue of slow play.

What do others think?

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

Howdy,
I follow a philosophy that says``one time shame on u,two times shame on me``I will not only not play a slow player anymore but also avoid socializing with a slow player. It may sound harsh.
Cheer up and speed up.
Vagabond
 
sjm said:
Well, sort of, Bob, but the WPBA system is best of all. All televised matches are on the shot clock, but it's the system for the untelevised matches that impresses me.

At a WPBA event, you'll see that they nearly always stays on schedule. Why? Because of the shot clock. In WPBA races to nine (the race length in the non-TV rounds), in any match where eight racks are not completed in half the match's allotted time, both players go on the shot clock for the remainder fo the match. Hence, if a match is scheduled to last two hours, if it's 4 - 3 after an hour, the match goes on the shot clock. This helps to maintain the match schedule, which is important for the fans.
Click to expand...

How long is the time to shoot on the WPBA shot clock? If I instituted a shot clock I would put it at 45 seconds. I remember they had a shot clock in the 1992 U.S. Open 14.1 that Sigel won, and as I recall it didn't seem to adversely affect the quality of play much if at all. I also think having one extension per rack is a good thing, since some layouts obviously call for more time to survey and analyze.

I am more interested in how the quality of play would be affected by shooting more quickly or less quickly. Again, I think that is an individual thing--for some players shooting more quickly is better, for others shooting more slowly is better. I don't take much time at all when I'm down on the shot--I have the same routine pretty much on every shot. But I do walk around the table to see the angles and to touch the tip of my cue to a spot on the table to where I want to play position. Some people have told me they think I would actually play better shooting more quickly, and I have had matches where I've consciously shot more quickly and played very well, but most of my errors on pocketing balls or playing position seem to come from not taking the time to mark where I want to play position to or from not taking the time to find the highest percentage route to the next position.

FWIW, I think most of those who complain about my pace of play do so because they hate losing for such a long time. ;)
 
I hate slow players!!. I dont sit and chit chat with folks and then take 20 mins to read the table and decide what I am going to shoot my mind is already made up 98% of the time when I get there because I am looking at the table the entire time. Slow players bore me I try to avoid them if possible however I usually will end up playing one on one of my league nights!!! Its one thing sitting in your seat while a guy/girl is just running every rack at least you can learn something. but sitting there for 5 mins each and every shot is just painful!
 
PoolBum said:
How long is the time to shoot on the WPBA shot clock? If I instituted a shot clock I would put it at 45 seconds. I remember they had a shot clock in the 1992 U.S. Open 14.1 that Sigel won, and as I recall it didn't seem to adversely affect the quality of play much if at all. I also think having one extension per rack is a good thing, since some layouts obviously call for more time to survey and analyze.
Click to expand...

This is how it works today with the WPBA shot clock. You have thirty seconds to shoot. Each player gets one thirty second extension in every rack, so when they use it, they may take up to one minute on that shot. Each player gets two extensions in a double hill rack.

It's a system that works, especially for the fans of the game.

Slow players all seem to have the same view, that "my opponent doesn't like it because they are losing". This is absurd. The driver that pulls his car up to a traffic light and, once the light turns green, spends twenty seconds deciding whether to turn left, go straight, or turn right, may ensure navigational accuracy, but there are few who'd argue that it's fair to the cars behind him, forced to wait while he decides. It's really not any different with pool. Those that take forever to pull the trigger on a shot show low regard for other players and place very low value on their opponent's time.
 
sjm said:
This is how it works today with the WPBA shot clock. You have thirty seconds to shoot. Each player gets one thirty second extension in every rack, so when they use it, they may take up to one minute on that shot. Each player gets two extensions in a double hill rack.

It's a system that works, especially for the fans of the game.

Slow players all seem to have the same view, that "my opponent doesn't like it because they are losing". This is absurd. The driver that pulls his car up to a traffic light and, once the light turns green, spends twenty seconds deciding whether to turn left, go straight, or turn right, may ensure navigational accuracy, but there are few who'd argue that it's fair to the cars behind him, forced to wait while he decides. It's really not any different with pool. Those that take forever to pull the trigger on a shot show low regard for other players and place very low value on their opponent's time.
Click to expand...

i don't normally disagree with you, but here i kinda do, and i kinda don't.

first off........i'm not a slow player(i actually shoot too fast...before anyone thinks i'm a slow player defending slow players)

i don't see anything wrong with naturally slow players. if thats the way they shoot thats the way they shoot.

although, i'm assuming that this thread is about the extreme case of slow play.

i don't mind someone taking a minute or two on CERTAIN shots. now if they do this on EVERY shot, i agree, its uncalled for.

i also think that the shot clock should be a little longer, or at least the extention should be a little longer. how many times have you seen the player :

either get down and shoot real fast when the director gives them the 10 sec warning, so they don't have to use their extention

or

take their extention, and still be thinking about the shot when they get the second 10 sec warning and then have to hurry up and shoot. combined with things like all ball fouls and such, this sometimes puts them in a time crunch to decide on the shot, make sure they are set up correctly, don't touch any balls, do a pre shot routine(which is usually longer since its a harder shot) and then execute.

VAP
 
vapoolplayer said:
i don't normally disagree with you, but here i kinda do, and i kinda don't.

first off........i'm not a slow player(i actually shoot too fast...before anyone thinks i'm a slow player defending slow players)

i don't see anything wrong with naturally slow players. if thats the way they shoot thats the way they shoot.

although, i'm assuming that this thread is about the extreme case of slow play.

i don't mind someone taking a minute or two on CERTAIN shots. now if they do this on EVERY shot, i agree, its uncalled for.

i also think that the shot clock should be a little longer, or at least the extention should be a little longer. how many times have you seen the player :

either get down and shoot real fast when the director gives them the 10 sec warning, so they don't have to use their extention

or

take their extention, and still be thinking about the shot when they get the second 10 sec warning and then have to hurry up and shoot. combined with things like all ball fouls and such, this sometimes puts them in a time crunch to decide on the shot, make sure they are set up correctly, don't touch any balls, do a pre shot routine(which is usually longer since its a harder shot) and then execute.

VAP
Click to expand...


Will you just shut up and shoot already for Chrissake....it's people like you that muck up the game with your slow dull minds. This is what you get for not finishing high school. :p

BTW...SJM was 100% right on the mark with his last post. You lose.......
 
drivermaker said:
Will you just shut up and shoot already for Chrissake....it's people like you that muck up the game with your slow dull minds. This is what you get for not finishing high school. :p

BTW...SJM was 100% right on the mark with his last post. You lose.......
Click to expand...


calm down, i know you old folks are afraid you might not be alive by the time i finish my shot :cool:

i'll shoot........right after i get to the hill, runout to the 9 ball, then decide i need to take my 10 minute piss break........come back, clean my shaft, powder my hands, put on a glove, walk around the table, check the angle 5 times, get down to shoot, get up, change to a left handed stance, get up, get the rake, decide i don't need the rake, then just shoot it left handed.

did i mention the shot was 4 inches from the corner pocket?

VAP(for the record, i had that happend to me once, i wanted to choke the guy)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top