snakewood update

[desi2960]

made small pass to start the taper process. now for the room control 72 degree, had a heater failure and was 18 in the shop [ no cracks ]. called repairman and that after noon its 72 again [ no cracks ] well the heater failed 3 times taking the cue from 72 to below freezing about everyday for 10-12 days. [ no cracks ] finally i i gave up and had a new unit installed. but the up and down temp got me thinking. when i had a high dollar custom rifle made a few years back they used cryogenics on the barrel. they took the barrel to 300 degrees below freezing then slowly heated to to 300 degrees above normal temp, thats a 600 degree change, i believe it aligns the molecules making for a stronger better shooting barrel. [ i am no expert in the process, but that's what i was told ] i know gun barrels are a bit different from a piece of snakewood, but the temp has been up and down by as much as 50 degrees in the last 2 weeks and no cracks. we are going to do one day at 72, then move the wood to the garage to 40-50 degrees for a day then its outside to whatever the nighttime temp s that night. been in the teen's - 20's lately i am going to use a modified cryo method on this piece of snakewood and high grade birdseye. what the hell i'm only $160 in the 2 pieces of wood, WHAT COULD POSSIBLY GO WRONG ?

 

[cueman]

made small pass to start the taper process. now for the room control 72 degree, had a heater failure and was 18 in the shop [ no cracks ]. called repairman and that after noon its 72 again [ no cracks ] well the heater failed 3 times taking the cue from 72 to below freezing about everyday for 10-12 days. [ no cracks ] finally i i gave up and had a new unit installed. but the up and down temp got me thinking. when i had a high dollar custom rifle made a few years back they used cryogenics on the barrel. they took the barrel to 300 degrees below freezing then slowly heated to to 300 degrees above normal temp, thats a 600 degree change, i believe it aligns the molecules making for a stronger better shooting barrel. [ i am no expert in the process, but that's what i was told ] i know gun barrels are a bit different from a piece of snakewood, but the temp has been up and down by as much as 50 degrees in the last 2 weeks and no cracks. we are going to do one day at 72, then move the wood to the garage to 40-50 degrees for a day then its outside to whatever the nighttime temp s that night. been in the teen's - 20's lately i am going to use a modified cryo method on this piece of snakewood and high grade birdseye. what the hell i'm only $160 in the 2 pieces of wood, WHAT COULD POSSIBLY GO WRONG ?

If all goes well you will not be the first to build a snakewood cue successfully. It has been done hundreds of times. And if all does not go well you would not be the first to have one crack on you during the build or after the player gets it in his hands. My guess is that is works out more often than it fails, but the percentages are too high for me. Something I have thought about trying is coring one and soaking it in water based urethane finish to stabilize it. We dropped a one inch shaft dowel in our water urethane dipping tank and let it stay in there a day or so. The finish went all the way through the maple shaft dowel. I am not sure if snakewood would take on the finish all the way through. That is why I have thought of doing it once cored. I used to drop my snakewood in Nelsonite for a day or so before working with it. That did seem to help.

 

[Chopdoc]

when i had a high dollar custom rifle made a few years back they used cryogenics on the barrel. they took the barrel to 300 degrees below freezing then slowly heated to to 300 degrees above normal temp, thats a 600 degree change, I believe it aligns the molecules making for a stronger better shooting barrel.

The same is done for parts in racing motors.

I had a conversation recently with a CM where I suggested this could be a treatment for shaft woods. Just wild speculation, and of course cracking could be a problem......but I find it an interesting notion......for shafts.....cores.....straight grained stable woods........

I don't think the temps you are talking about are low enough to have the molecular effect.....and cracking is a distinct possibility.......but like you said....what the heck?

 

[scdiveteam]

Hi,

I made a snakewood cue 3 years ago. After having it in my shop for 2 years I ran it through the doweling machine, cored it, put it on a 30" dowel, cut v grooves for points and then finished the cue as normal.

As is my normal procedure after it was on the dowel I took all of the taper passes in only one day from 1 3/8" to .930. After gluing the points i cut it from .930 to .840 in one day.

I sold it to a customer who I see all the time and there is no cracks and as it is full cored, no warping.

Rick

 

[desi2960]

thanks for all the info

i did core the snakewood butt into the maple handle with a maple dowel, but left the forearm solid sw, as i wanted the extra weight up front. i believe that the snakewood is so dense soaking in any liquid would have very little effect. everything i tried did not go very deep into the wood.
i believe that the higher temps are needed for metal. but the lower ones might work for wood, if not then next time i will jack up the heat, and maybe use the freezer.
i have so far found only a very few small surface cracks and filled them with sg, that seems to help.
i'm going to go from hot to cold for the next couple weeks, take some very very thin passes and keep the butt coated with sg.
remember at sometime in the past someone looked at a lobster, and said " i bet that is good to eat "

 

[Naked Cues]

I remember reading on Dieckman's (sp?) website (cuemaker.com) that he left his wood exposed to all four season's temperature swings in order to allow the wood to move [all it was going to before it went into the cue]. I'm not sure how or if this would apply to snakewood. Unfortunately, his website no longer appears to be working.

I do, however, have the PDF file from his website stating his theory on allowing the wood to season through different temps and humidity if you'd like me to email it.

I'm new to this, but figured I'd add the little bit of information I picked up from my research.

-Jason.

 

[Mr Hoppe]

At face value, I don't see exposing the sw to temperature extremes as being beneficial. With wood being such a substantially different material from metal, I don't think tempering will have any beneficial effect, but I appreciate someone who is willing to experiment and publish their results.

What your experiment needs though is a null hypothesis, a way to measure the results, and a control. In other words, what do you think will happen, and how are you going to measure it? Further, even if your anticipated outcome is achieved, you'll need to prove that your actions were responsible for the outcome. If your hypothesis is that tempering will keep the sw straight and resist checking, then you'll want to compare the tempered piece with another piece that did not undergo your treatment. After all, if you go through all of the effort and the piece stays straight and doesn't crack, how do you justify repeating all of that effort on future pieces knowing that the first one may have just been a fluke?

I know that you probably didn't set out trying to conduct a scientific experiment, but these are just some things to think about, and I look forward to reading your findings. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Paul Dayton]

Sometimes snakewood cracks, sometimes it doesn't. I'm working on a very special snakewood fronted cue now that I started in 1999. It hasn't cracked yet but I wouldn't be surprised if it did. If it doesn't it will be the second one I've made that didn't. I had a butt sleeve crack 6 years after it was built, finished and sold to someone who takes better care of his cues than anyone on the planet. It was just time to crack.

The temperature variations aren't going to make a difference in wood the way it will in metal. Wood has a fixed cellular structure where metal can be melted, cast, etc, and still be the same metal. Tempering rearranges the molecular structure of the metal and frequently is just done to a portion of the metal being treated, sauch as band saw blade teeth and induction hardened lathe beds. Years ago wood was sometimes fire hardened for weapons but it was just used to drive the moisture out of the wood, making it harder than it was when it was green.

Accelerating the drying of snakewood would only increase the likely hood that it will crack. The only recipie I know of to minimize cracking is to very, very slowly season the wood (years)and always coat the surface of the wood you just worked on with some sort of sealant, such as epoxy. Dipping in Nelsonite can help but not assure success. Impregnation with resin won't work because the wood is too dense and close cell structured to alow and resin penetration. It weighs the same after impregnation as it did before meaning there was no resin added.

 

[meridianblades]

Only thing I would add to this is that snakewood can be professionally stabilized and K&G has been doing 2 x 2 stock all the way thru for many years now. It does not gain much weight, thats true, but if the proper pressure, and if a stabilant with a thinner consistency is used, it can be properly stabilized. Snakewood is the only wood that is left at 12% before stabilizing, normally I shoot for around 8%.

The biggest thing to watch out for IMO, is the heat generated while working the wood. Things like drilling holes are something to be careful with, for a couple reasons. The first being the heat can cause cracking if you go too fast and it gets hot. The second thing is you need to make sure the shavings are not allowed to build up and expand in the hole. Snakewood is very brittle and that pressure can cause checking. Stabilizing doesnt guarantee it wont crack, but it definately helps. As always your mileage may vary.

Snakewood is beautiful stuff and worth the trouble IMO. Could be worse, like madrone burl. It cracks if you look at it the wrong way... Larry

 

[rhncue]

I won't use the stuff except for inlays. Upon reading most of these comments so far I believe most are going in the wrong direction and are about to ruin some expensive wood. As we all know, snake wood is a very heavy, very dense wood. Most also know that wood loses most of it's moisture through the end grain. What causes checking is different moisture in different parts of the wood. By losing moisture through the end grain to quickly wood checks because of the difference from the ends to farther up the board. A refrigerator is the same as a dehumidifier kiln. The colder air holds less moisture so the end grain looses it's moisture much more quickly causing to much of a difference between the end grain and the middle and the you acquire checks. The harder, more dense the wood, the slower it must be dried.

Dick

 

[Chopdoc]

The temperature variations aren't going to make a difference in wood the way it will in metal.

Though grossly the materials are very different the principle of altering the molecular structure for strength could indeed apply to wood.

Remember wood is cellulose, a carbohydrate, which can be formed and is quite plastic. A great part of the structure of wood can be said to be crystalline, and a great part of the structure of steel can be said to be crystalline. In fact....carbon structure is common to both and has a great deal to do with the physical properties of both.

Also, it has already been done, and with maple itself, the mainstay wood of cue making, and it has been published. There are claims of up to a 25% increase in strength.

I think the real question is not whether or not one can treat wood this way and alter its strength and/or hardness but whether or not the properties of wood treated this way are beneficial in a pool cue.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904007304576498731424379912.html

http://www.woodworkingnetwork.com/n...d_bats_stronger_after_freezing_127867363.html

I respect your opinion on the matter, but the work is already being done with maple. Specifically I was responding because the subject is cracking and I had already read a bit on the method as used with maple.

I draw your attention to a quote from the above article:

it may also have other applications where prevention of wood cracking is critical.

 

[Paul Dayton]

I read the articles and all I got out of it was an unsubstantiated claim by a couple fans that their freezing would strengthen maple bats in a manner that would make them less susceptible to shattering.

The first article which summarizes the results of an analysis of several thousand broken bats found that they broke along short grain in bats where there was too much grain runout in a wood that is less dense than the traditional wood, ash.

The second article was a sales pitch by a pr man from the wood materials industry.

Entrepeneur and realtor decided that wood can be treated like metal and have applied for a patent claiming that their process makes maple 25% stonger. There is no proof offered other than the claim that an independent university tested their wood. The name of the university isn't mentioned nor are the methods used to test. Applying for a patent is only an application nothing else. Most patents are dead ends.

When asked about the claims of freezing as a strengthening treatment, a representative of the US Forestry Service declined to comment.

MLB isn't using these cryogenically treated bats, they're just insisting on straighter grained maple.

While cellulose is indeed an organic chemical capable of being formed, it is locked into a defined molecular structure where wood is concerned. Wood is not a material which exists in solid, liquid, and gas phases. Heated hot enough it combines with oxygen and burns. In a vacuum with heat it chemically decomposes into smaller molecules. Freeze it all you want and if there is enough water in it it might crack but it won't change.

 

[Chopdoc]

I never said there was proof. I merely suggested it is possible.

I wasn't suggesting those were scientific references.

I understand what patent applications are, and I understand what they are not. I understand the "independent university" claim. I understand a representative of the US forestry service declined to comment. I understand combustion and decomposition.

Thank you anyway for your explanation of these and other matters.

I understand you feel it is not possible to cryogenically alter the molecular structure of wood. I feel it may be possible, though I do question it and I question the value of it.

During my research at Hopkins we had some involvement with a group that was engaged in cryogenics research involving organic/biologic molecules. I'm getting in touch with them. I have a feeling they can contribute something on the matter.

 

[desi2960]

i had no idea

this would turn into such a scientific discussion. we all know what happens when we leave our cues in a car when we go to vegas. now just think if you had that same piece of wood before it was made into a cue, its straight, now put it in the car let it warp, then cut a straight piece, if we put it in the car again will it warp again ? i am not trying to reinvent the wheel or save global warming. i am simply taking some snakewood and birdseye, heating them up and getting them cold. how many sailors turned back because they were afraid of falling off the edge of the world until one decided to take the plunge, hell i am not afraid to fail. we gotta start somewhere.

 

[Chopdoc]

It's interesting to note the effects of commonly experienced temperatures on cues....but we are talking about below −190 °C (−310 °F). Strange things happen at these temperatures. It could indeed destroy the wood. It could alter it's properties in trivial ways. Or perhaps, just maybe, there could be some benefit.

 

[Paul Dayton]

If you take the piece from the car and cut it straight then put it back into the car it might stay straight. If it is somewhere other than in the car, it will probably return to its normal state which will now be warped. The new environment of the car caused the wood to move to a new shape. Remove the factors, heat, humidity, that caused the change and the wood won't have a reason to stay in the new shape. The sawing of the wood will not force it to stay straight.

The cryogenic treatment of your rifle barrel and other metals actually rearranges some of the microcrystalline structure of the metal and makes it more uniform relievng sresses in the material making it a lot tougher and less prone to metal fatigue. This is possible because metal is made from a motten liquid that develops crystal structure as it cools and stresses occur at the edges of some of the crystals which are somehow altered with cryogenic recycling. Wood doesn't have these crystal structures.

 

[cueman]

If you take the piece from the car and cut it straight then put it back into the car it might stay straight. If it is somewhere other than in the car, it will probably return to its normal state which will now be warped. The new environment of the car caused the wood to move to a new shape. Remove the factors, heat, humidity, that caused the change and the wood won't have a reason to stay in the new shape. The sawing of the wood will not force it to stay straight.
The cryogenic treatment of your rifle barrel and other metals actually rearranges some of the microcrystalline structure of the metal and makes it more uniform relievng sresses in the material making it a lot tougher and less prone to metal fatigue. This is possible because metal is made from a motten liquid that develops crystal structure as it cools and stresses occur at the edges of some of the crystals which are somehow altered with cryogenic recycling. Wood doesn't have these crystal structures.

So if I am understanding right, taking my baked cues back to Missouri from Vegas should have made them go back straight?

 

[Chopdoc]

Wood doesn't have these crystal structures.

Indeed it does not have those exact same crystalline structures but wood (cellulose) most certainly does have crystalline structure. I promise, it's true. In fact many of the physical properties of wood are related to that crystalline structure. Hence altering it could/would/might alter the properties.


The linear crystalline polymer structure of cellulose is the "backbone" of the structure of wood.

Here is a nice article that mentions some of this down to the molecular structure. I am not Berkeley fan....but they do nice work occasionally. :wink:

http://www.ce.berkeley.edu/~paulmont/CE60New/wood.pdf


EDIT: A quick literature search reveals there is work in the area of thermal modification of wood. Looks like I have some reading to do.

If your interested, try Google Scholar searches instead of Google. http://scholar.google.com/

.

 

[meridianblades]

Not sure on the cryo treatment for wood...its interesting tho. The thing that baffles me is..... We all know that wood moves (shrink/swell) as it acclimates to its climate, but when its stabilized (meaning some form of acrylic / MMA) you can soak it in a bucket of water overnight, and it will absorb water and gain weight, but wont swell. Its like the water absorption process gets so far, and then is stopped by the stabilizer.
Set it on the workbench and it goes back to its original weight very quickly.

Definately a good thing when making a kitchen knife handle that goes under the faucet to get clean. If its not stabilized and it moves its pretty easy to see, (tang is not flush, cracking etc) since it doesnt play nice with metal pins.... Apologies to the OP for going off course, carry on.

Indeed it does not have those exact same crystalline structures but wood (cellulose) most certainly does have crystalline structure. I promise, it's true. In fact many of the physical properties of wood are related to that crystalline structure. Hence altering it could/would/might alter the properties.


The linear crystalline polymer structure of cellulose is the "backbone" of the structure of wood.

Here is a nice article that mentions some of this down to the molecular structure. I am not Berkeley fan....but they do nice work occasionally. :wink:

http://www.ce.berkeley.edu/~paulmont/CE60New/wood.pdf


EDIT: A quick literature search reveals there is work in the area of thermal modification of wood. Looks like I have some reading to do.

If your interested, try Google Scholar searches instead of Google. http://scholar.google.com/

.

 

[Lexicologist71]

I would worry that if there was a cyclic freezing and thawing that the wood would break down due to expansion and contraction of water/ice and the movement of the fibers. Wood is made of proteins. If those proteins denature, they lose their strength. A protein that denatures changes its molecular structure and can no longer perform its role.