So is this a “shark attack” or not? Explain why or why not.

Pick one and please explain

  • Yes

    Votes: 41 63.1%

  • No

    Votes: 18 27.7%

  • Not sure

    Votes: 5 7.7%

  • Other

    Votes: 1 1.5%
  • Total voters
    65
True Mully, but Ron was up on his shot and ready just a fraction of a second before JA interrupted him.

Yep, we all can be a bit hot headed when we are focused and someone gets into our head. I once was down on a straight in shot in the corner pocket, the girl stood in front of the pocket and asked me where the ball was going.
My first reaction was to mention that probably up her ass if she ever did that to me again but I didn't.

Yep, I missed the shot.
 
hog - I'm gonna disagree. My understanding of a push is it's just a double hit caused by the CB not having enough space to move out of the way after contacting the other ball. When someone says "push foul" they're just talking about a double hit. No difference between them.

As to why johnny didn't wait for him to foul and then call it - maybe he had no confidence in the ref to see it and call it, and he didn't want his opponent to get away with it. Maybe he just wanted to notify his opponent that he was about to foul, the same way you might tell someone when they're about to shoot the wrong ball.

I don't see anything suspicious about the timing... a few seconds after the CB almost locked up on the five, johnny was out of his chair and walking to get a better view of it, he was practically walking to the table before ronnie even got down. He only said something when it was clear ronnie was shooting it. And it wasn't like ronnie was 100% set and had taken practice strokes, johnny said something just as ronnie finished bending.

From the perspective of a guy watching the video on youtube, it might be obvious ronnie's not at a 'push angle' and is shooting away from the ball. But from johnny's chair 8 feet away with Ronnie's body blocking the view, it might not be so obvious.
 
Just a thought...

Maybe Ronnie wasn't really mad at Johnny, but was using Johnny for a scape goat or excuse.

Ronnie had a easy out and screwed it up, then got mad at himself, then blamed Johnny for sharking. I've done it before. I screw up, get mad at myself and just find someone else to blame.

Okay...so my girlfriend isn't the only one that finds blame on someone else.:smile:
 
sly said:
i think its a push shot by the sound of it (played it a few times) his tip hit the cue ball about 7 times.
when theres no ref you react like johnny did , does the ref know what a push shot is?
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Question is.. do you?

Freddie <~~~ hint: double hit does not mean the same thing as push shot
 
Creedo, A double hit will happen when the object ball and cue ball are less than an inch away from each other. Approx the width of a piece of chalk.

If the shot is not executed properly, as in 45 degree jacked up or 45 away from the cue ball, the cue ball will come back and contact the tip of the cue a second time. Most people, if they are not deaf like me, can actually hear this phenomenon happen. I wish I could.

A Push shot is what happens when the tip of the cue stays on the cue ball
longer than it needs to be in order to execute the shot. The cue ball can be pushed
at any distance and doesn't necessarily have to be less than or any particular distance from the object ball.
The cue ball can be a foot away from the object ball and a person can push the cue ball with their cue.
The tip is actually pushing it and that is why they call it a push.

Actually, people use to confuse the difference between what a push shot is and a double hit. They are two different scenarios completely.

You will seldom see an actual Push shot at novice level playing let alone Pro level. It is just a phenomenon that doesn't happen often. If it does happen, it is by accident and not intentional.

Dr Dave has a most excellent video series on his site that is a Referee Quiz.
If you watch it, you will see the demonstration that will clearly show you the difference between the two shots.

Even if you are not a ref or planning to be, it is a very informative series that anyone that watches it will be an eye opener for them and great lessons. How many times have you been asked to ref a shot in league play? Probably a few or if not, it may happen in the future. By studying Dr. Dave's ref quiz, it may prepare you for the time that someone asks to to watch a shot for them.
 
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Are you kidding? If it looks like a duck, if it walks like a duck, if it quacks like a duck ..... it's probably a duck.
 
stouter2386 said:
You think Johnny would have done that if the ref wasnt there? try pulling that move while gambling in a back room somewhere and see how far that gets ya
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I take it you have gambled much. If the cue ball is that close to the object ball i will be there watching it gambling.
 
There was a referee. If a ball is not called frozen it is not frozen. Sometimes the seated player needs to point this out, and has the right to, but not in this particular case.

The balls were far enough apart -- at least half an inch -- to allow Wiseman to play directly at the ball without fouling. There are several standard techniques to do this. It's not easy to use those techniques under pressure if you have not recently practiced them.

I don't think Wiseman fouled on the shot.

Some other points:

You can play directly at a ball 1/4 inch away and not foul.
You can foul on a ball 6 inches away.
The rules vary in different tournaments. At Derby City, Wiseman could have played directly at the ball as long as he used draw and it would not have been a foul even if he had hit the cue ball twice. That's one of several special DCC rules.
Sound is often misleading on double hits.
There is a video of former world champion shooting straight at such a ball and hitting it twice. He does it quickly enough that his opponent doesn't have time to call a ref over.
I've seen a different world champion who did not know what the WSR rule was on close-ball fouls.
Most people have no idea what the rule is if the cue ball is frozen to the OB but there is a second OB nearby.
 
Hog (and corner) - thanks for the education. I checked out Dr. Dave's video test.

I'm still wondering - isn't a push just a double (triple, quadruple, etc) hit happening so fast it's hard to detect?

In other words, the tip hits the OB at, I dunno, .5 MPH. The ball starts to roll away but the weight of it and slow speed prevents it from moving away very fast, and the slowly advancing tip hits it again... and maybe even a third time.

I found only one high speed video of a push but it's not the situation you described with just a cue ball and a tip. It's a situation where the cue ball is trapped onto another object ball, and the OB itself was trapped on the rail. I would think that without this "trapping" action, simply moving slowly forward with your tip will result in multiple contacts.
 
I do not think it was intentional.Archer is not a guy who pulls that like that . I think Archer and some people feel so comfortable with the games they make a mistake.We all make mistakes.Half the time Archer is in some dive pool room with no holds bar idiots without any honor and John did say sorry and he does a lot.

I think you can get so much going on and you have been playing at Joe's place so much and it is not common Archer. He just made a huge mistake and was sorry for it. I think he realized it when he started to approach the table but what was he to do sit right back down then you have a million things questioned why he got up and walked 2 feet toward the table and sat back down and was that sharking.

That is not Archers usual form and he also had to come back from making a fool of himself and pull it together and play.There is no way Johnny Archer would sit there and and say to himself I am going to jump up and make fool of myself for everyone to see and win that way.

He just is not that kind of guy. Mind you the man can give you a headache in a disagreement and he also is never wrong in his mind until shown proof he is wrong but he did not plan that whole thing out.This is the second time I have seen this same post and most of the elders here should know better.

Agreed not good form that day but things happen and people are so easy to judge others now days. I think both players were locked in and Johnny loves the game still a lot.He will watch other players for hours and hours and yes a huge goof but the bashing Archer thing has been around for a bit too long I think. I have seen the same mistake out of another equally known player but they did not get a video of it and the thing was dropped in a month.

Only because this is archer it continues and I think it was a huge goof and that happens when a million things are flying by and you forget what forum you are at when you are so worn down also. So I say huge mistake without original intention that is getting judged harshly.
 
Creedo, here is a video with Mike Page of Fargo Billiards explaining the difference between the two shots.

He goes on to mention that the actual Push Shot is quite rare.
Close to the end of the video, he will demonstrate what a Push Shot looks like.

You can't guess how many times I have came close to arguments with people at the table explaining that when 2 balls are frozen, that you can Push Thru a shot. Also, when the balls are frozen, you no longer have to jack up 45 degrees on the shot, nor having to shoot away at least 45 degrees.

I believe that Dr. Dave also shows an example of how you can shoot thru the balls when they are frozen in one segment in the Ref Quiz.
In Dr. Dave's series, video explanation is stressed so you can see where the tangent lines are on the object balls. The tangent line is a very important part of being able to determine a foul or legal hit. That is why at times, you will see a ref study the object ball from a couple of different angles before he tells the shooter to go ahead and shoot.

Now, don't take that wording the wrong way. A Push Shot and Pushing Thru the frozen balls are 2 different shots.
The wording of Pushing Thru the balls is just a way of explanation and not meant that the cue tip stays on the cue ball longer than necessary.

Thanks for the video Mike.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rip8xwobksc

Here is a short video by Dr. Dave that shows in slow Mo, what a Push Shot is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25ByET-GXDE
 
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push shot ddl hit

CreeDo said:
Hog (and corner) - thanks for the education. I checked out Dr. Dave's video test.

I'm still wondering - isn't a push just a double (triple, quadruple, etc) hit happening so fast it's hard to detect?

In other words, the tip hits the OB at, I dunno, .5 MPH. The ball starts to roll away but the weight of it and slow speed prevents it from moving away very fast, and the slowly advancing tip hits it again... and maybe even a third time.

I found only one high speed video of a push but it's not the situation you described with just a cue ball and a tip. It's a situation where the cue ball is trapped onto another object ball, and the OB itself was trapped on the rail. I would think that without this "trapping" action, simply moving slowly forward with your tip will result in multiple contacts.
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Discription of the rule push shot is described as a human see's it, not under slow motion camera, your argurement is noted that its most of the time a it is double hit then a push, but the bca apa it is writen as 2 different fouls.

But you seem like you know your way around the table how would you write the rule ?

here is the BCA ph # 303.243.5070 or any cert BCA instructor should be able to explain the difference.

I see your point but I cannot fully agree with you, there is a difference thats why the rule is described differently.
as of sharking by J A he had no business at the table when it was not his shot.

6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct
The normal penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct is the same as for a serious foul, but the referee may impose a penalty depending on his judgment of the conduct. Among other penalties possible are a warning; a standard-foul penalty, which will count as part of a three-foul sequence if applicable; a serious-foul penalty; loss of a rack, set or match; ejection from the competition possibly with forfeiture of all prizes, trophies and standings points.
Unsportsmanlike conduct is any intentional behavior that brings disrepute to the sport or which disrupts or changes the game to the extent that it cannot be played fairly. It includes
(a) distracting the opponent; (b) changing the position of the balls in play other than by a shot;
(c) playing a shot by intentionally miscuing; (d) continuing to play after a foul has been called or play has been suspended; (e) practicing during a match; (f) marking the table; (g) delay of the game; and
(h) using equipment inappropriately.

MMike
 
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Bob Jewett said:
Some other points:

You can play directly at a ball 1/4 inch away and not foul.



.
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Recently in BCA nationals at Riviera, I ran into Stephano pellinga. He was at Tiger Booth doing demonstrations. He did show me how to do that shot without causing a foul hit.:cool:
 
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supergreenman said:
As far as I'm concerned when there is a referee present the player not shooting should be sitting with his mouth shut.

Poor form on Archers part.
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Rules vary from tournament to tournament. Without knowing the rules of that particular tournament I will not be able to say whether Jhonny was right or wrong in approaching the table inspite the referee was there.

More than a decade and half ago when you had professional Billiards Tour for men, there was one rule that said the player is not allowed to check the rack when the referee racks the balls. Inspite of that rule, One time I remember, Jhonny checked the rack after the referee racked the Balls. He is Jhonny Archer the great and I guess, he can do anything he wants when he feels that something is not right and he has to intervene.:cool:
 
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Sharking?

Whether it was sharking or not is irrelivant. The match is over and the results are history. In the end there's a winner and a loser. Those who look for reasons to discredit a victory will focus on any issue to support their cause. Unfortunately, many issues fall in the "Gray Area".

Would he have made the shot had Johnny kept his mouth shut???....Nobody knows, but one one thing is sure....Pool is a MENTAL game and if you cannot overcome a small distraction, there is a part of your game that is lacking. It's no different than having a flaw in your stroke. Distractions are a part of the game!

Do you think Johnny would have missed that shot had the shoe been on the other foot? Probably not.

Televised matches are only a small fraction of the games these top players compete. You can bet that when the camera is off, there are many subtle "head games" going on to gain an edge. It's simply a part of the game.

Johnny's response to the situation may have been completely subconscious and a result of behavior characteristic to the state of competition often apparent when the camera is off.

I've seen refs make bad calls and Johnny's opponent was approaching the shot in a way that lent itself to a foul. In addition, to stay out of the shooters line of sight, the ref was forced to stand a little too far away to really see if a foul occured given the fact the cue ball was almost touching the OB. I think Johnny may have been concerned that the ref was not "on the ball" per say and unwilling to let his fate be determined by an unattentive ref.

Hence, he simply confirmed the rule with the ref to be certain. To make sure the ref was paying extra close attention.

Was it sharking......depends on your perspective.
Where do we draw the line between acceptable and reasonable inquiries and those that are not.

If I bring the situation to the refs attention and lose the game...who do I blame? Myself. I lost on my own merrit.

If I say nothing and let a ref standing 5 ft away, make the call only to find out in rebroadcast that the ref missed the foul.....Who do I blame? Myself for not bringing it to the refs attention.

Since the blame for a loss falls upon my shoulders in either situation...I'd much rater lose on my own merrit than on a bad call.
 
Vagabond. I took the Ref school in Vegas a couple of years ago.
When they were teaching the double hits, everyone was saying, "Oh yeah, I can hear that".

Myself, being very hard of hearing found it frustrating to try and hear something that I couldn't. There other ways of knowing the double hit and am glad that hearing is just part of it or that hearing it can be deceiving otherwise I'd be hooped in that area.
 
It was a shark move. JA is the king of light sharking and getting into his opponents head. That being said it couldn't have happened to a nicer person than Ronnie the Rat
 
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