So what do you think the average innings are for an APA player?

[Roadking]

I don't know this for fact but APA 9-Ball has to be figured with your average balls made per inning minus your defense. Now this is some thing I just put together, right or wrong I don't know.But I bet it's real close. Based on 10pts. per rack.
0.00 to 1.11= skill-1
1.12 to 2.22= skill-2
2.23 to 3.33= skill-3
3.34 to 4.44= skill-4
4.45 to 5.55= skill-5
5.56 to 6.66= skill-6
6.67 to 7.77= skill-7
7.78 to 8.88= skill-8
8.89 to 10.0= skill-9

And I'm sure they take your best 10 matches out of your last 20.

 

[Roadking]

All so I'm sure theirs applied scoring to prevent sandbagging.
Let's say your a high level 4 (you ave. 4.44 balls per innning).
So you decide your going to try and run up the innings against a bad 3. So you beat the 3 31 to 20 in 25 innings. Which would be an average of 1.24 balls per inning making it look like you shot as a 2 skill level. But what you don't know is the APA program will Throw out that 1.24 ave. And give you a 4.44 applied score because you won the match.

 

[doitforthegame]

I don't know this for fact but APA 9-Ball has to be figured with your average balls made per inning minus your defense. Now this is some thing I just put together, right or wrong I don't know.But I bet it's real close. Based on 10pts. per rack.
0.00 to 1.11= skill-1
1.12 to 2.22= skill-2
2.23 to 3.33= skill-3
3.34 to 4.44= skill-4
4.45 to 5.55= skill-5
5.56 to 6.66= skill-6
6.67 to 7.77= skill-7
7.78 to 8.88= skill-8
8.89 to 10.0= skill-9

And I'm sure they take your best 10 matches out of your last 20.

Holy crap. Are you saying a 7 should reach his 55 points in a little over 7 innings? I think that is unreasonable.

I think, at least in my area, people should hit their points in between 18-22 innings. at least that is what it seems like to me.

 

[doitforthegame]

haven't seen too many good players in the apa. i gotta figure 5-7 on average. never seen anyone in the apa break and run a rack! but they all make a point to let me know i should move out of the way so they can shoot their ball into the rail when they play next to the table i'm gambling on

Be careful.....I used to laugh at APA players when I had my pool room. Used to say "OMG....and they think they are real pool players!" Then my room closed, and the others in the area. There was no one or any place to play. Just APA. So that's all I got. So be careful. It could happen to you!

Bob

 

[Roadking]

Holy crap. Are you saying a 7 should reach his 55 points in a little over 7 innings? I think that is unreasonable.

I think, at least in my area, people should hit their points in between 18-22 innings. at least that is what it seems like to me.

Yea your right, I figured balls per rack. I'll be back.

 

[boyersj]

I will help you guys wanting to understand how the skill levels in 9-ball work. Those who want just the quick answer, the target is between 15 and 17 innings. Each skill level have a slightly different target.

I will discuss a couple equation and then you can do your own math for the rest.
The skill levels are indeed dependant on points scored (P), defense (D), and innings (I).

To calculate your average, its P/(I-D) = A
To calculate expected innings it is P/(SL*2)=I

Double your average and that is your skill level. (ie. a 9s average is 4.5, or higher, 8s are 4.0 - 4.49, etc). Yes that means a 1's average is less than 1 ball per inning!

so, to determin target innings for a 9,
75/9*2 = 16.67 innings.

A 7's target innings is 55/7*2 = 15.74

A 5's target is 38/5*2 = 15.2


This is why all skill levels are "supposed" to have equal chance for victory.

Applied scores are used if you win and exceed your average. The actual value of the applied number is determined by your lifetime winning percentage and your skill level. No APA skill level is dependant on your opponent OR the area. Accuracy of scoring is the most important reason for disparity.

Enjoy!

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Not less innings....it is average balls. The three needed 25 to win. He got that in 11 innings, so it is 2.27 balls an inning (pretty fair I'd say); the next match the 4 averaged 1.93 balls; the 5 averaged 2.38; the 6 averaged 3.8.

See that is what I would consider very strong in my area. At least one thing, you are not there all night! those matches must end quick.

Bob

You are comparing apples to oranges. The poster said those were 8 ball scores. TOTALLY different system.

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Are you saying that no matter what skill level you are you should finish in 13-15 innings? Like a 3 should take 13-15 innings to reach 25. And a 7 should take 13-15 to reach 55?

Hmmm....that seems to have some credibility in my mind. BUT....I'm a 7 and I average higher than that to get my 55.

Bob

Those numbers are wrong. I am quite familiar with the balls per inning required for each skill level. I mentioned before that the number of innings required changes slightly per skill level. I am not going to say what the exact numbers are. Also, I am not guessing. I will tell you that you can deduct your safes from your total innings.

Good luck and try to do it for the game, rather than the score ;-)

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

An SL9 player in my area recently beat a SL6 75 to 3. Same player qualified for the US Amateur 2 years in a row. Many of our players can string together multiple racks of 9 ball.

Problem is that APA skill levels are based on the local competition so an SL8 in one area may be an SL5 in another.

This is another highly false misconception. People in different areas may do better or worse collectively at keeping score and marking safes. Likewise, a good player that *wins* frequently in an area of weak players will have a *slightly* higher handicap than he should, only because he gets a bit more credit for the matches he *loses*. However, it is never more of a difference of 0.9 skill levels. So you will NEVER have an 8 in one area be a 5 in another. Unless the people in the area where he is a 5 are baboons staring at their poop pile instead of marking any safes at all.

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

I don't know this for fact but APA 9-Ball has to be figured with your average balls made per inning minus your defense. Now this is some thing I just put together, right or wrong I don't know.But I bet it's real close. Based on 10pts. per rack.
0.00 to 1.11= skill-1
1.12 to 2.22= skill-2
2.23 to 3.33= skill-3
3.34 to 4.44= skill-4
4.45 to 5.55= skill-5
5.56 to 6.66= skill-6
6.67 to 7.77= skill-7
7.78 to 8.88= skill-8
8.89 to 10.0= skill-9

And I'm sure they take your best 10 matches out of your last 20.

You are pretty far off.


KMRUNOUT

 

[Roadking]

You are pretty far off.


KMRUNOUT

Hey I was winging it.

 

[Roadking]

Thanks to boyersj. Greatly appreciated.

 

[BryanBpool]

I don't know this for fact but APA 9-Ball has to be figured with your average balls made per inning minus your defense. Now this is some thing I just put together, right or wrong I don't know.But I bet it's real close. Based on 10pts. per rack.
0.00 to 1.11= skill-1
1.12 to 2.22= skill-2
2.23 to 3.33= skill-3
3.34 to 4.44= skill-4
4.45 to 5.55= skill-5
5.56 to 6.66= skill-6
6.67 to 7.77= skill-7
7.78 to 8.88= skill-8
8.89 to 10.0= skill-9

And I'm sure they take your best 10 matches out of your last 20.

This is waaaaay off....

See my post on page 2.

I was raised to a 9 once I hit around 4 balls/inning for my previous 10 matches. It may seem low, but there are dry breaks, times when you do not get a shot, racks that are tied up etc etc etc.

Its really bad in the APA since its loser racks. You basically get slugged every single rack. Not that its intentional, just that most APA players arent going to take the time it requires to give you a great rack.

 

[BryanBpool]

I will help you guys wanting to understand how the skill levels in 9-ball work. Those who want just the quick answer, the target is between 15 and 17 innings. Each skill level have a slightly different target.

I will discuss a couple equation and then you can do your own math for the rest.
The skill levels are indeed dependant on points scored (P), defense (D), and innings (I).

To calculate your average, its P/(I-D) = A
To calculate expected innings it is P/(SL*2)=I

Double your average and that is your skill level. (ie. a 9s average is 4.5, or higher, 8s are 4.0 - 4.49, etc). Yes that means a 1's average is less than 1 ball per inning!

so, to determin target innings for a 9,
75/9*2 = 16.67 innings.

A 7's target innings is 55/7*2 = 15.74

A 5's target is 38/5*2 = 15.2


This is why all skill levels are "supposed" to have equal chance for victory.

Applied scores are used if you win and exceed your average. The actual value of the applied number is determined by your lifetime winning percentage and your skill level. No APA skill level is dependant on your opponent OR the area. Accuracy of scoring is the most important reason for disparity.

Enjoy!

This is what I ahve observed over the years.

If you finish your 9ball night < 15 innings, you are on your way to moving up.

 

[OneIron]

This is another highly false misconception. People in different areas may do better or worse collectively at keeping score and marking safes. Likewise, a good player that *wins* frequently in an area of weak players will have a *slightly* higher handicap than he should, only because he gets a bit more credit for the matches he *loses*. However, it is never more of a difference of 0.9 skill levels. So you will NEVER have an 8 in one area be a 5 in another. Unless the people in the area where he is a 5 are baboons staring at their poop pile instead of marking any safes at all.

KMRUNOUT

Just theoretically, suppose you have an area where all of the players are extremely weak and another area where all of the players are strong. Maybe a rural area vs a big city like Atlanta or St. Louis. You would have to have a range of skill levels in each area from 1 to 9 but the overall ability of each area could vary by maybe 2 skill levels. In that case, wouldn't a 7 in the rural area be equivalent to a 5 in the city? Or does the APA have a way to "normalize" the two areas so the difference never exceeds .9?

 

[boyersj]

the normalization of data isn't required. Your judged on 3 simple aspects. How many times did I shoot in the match? (innings) How many times did I pocket a ball? (points scored) How many times did I not intend to pocket a ball (defense) All of these ignore location, opponent ability, and any other variable of such nature. It DOES require accurate score-keeping.

Now the risks associated with playing players of the extreme level is a falsely stated "good night". lets say I am a 9, playing against a 3. Their average indicates they "should" score about 1.5 balls per inning. Now if I playing as a 9 run out to the 7 and scratch getting shape on the 8 and they get 3 points easy, then brake and make a couple balls, pocket another ball that was straight in then miss, and I run out the set... they shot one time but scored 6 points, for an average of 6.0 for the night (which is an average for a 9). They didn't necessarily play great (or get a chance to in this example) but it is indeed a risk that teams trying to "burn" a player can take without realizing it.

Just some food for thought!

 

[quadrary]

The various areas may be equalize but i assure you the tables dont. I know of leagues where the players always play on 8 foot connellys with buckets for pockets and they are all rated at least a skill level above where they should be. We always play on 9 foot Olhausens with 4.5 inch pockets and when we meet them in tournaments they are in trouble.

 

[tropheus]

absolutely civil discussion man. i hope you didn't think i was being condesending (sp?) in my remarks. i wsan't, i was absolutely saying that when there are more people there are more chances to cheat though. here in my area you can play 6 days a week in diffenernt divisions and areas in multiple rooms. where everyone won't always know how you play. you can have good and bad nights all the time in front of different people. and no one will know what's real.
and to your point of sandbagging being called on a guy having a good or bad night, yes it gets thrown out first when it maybe should be held back. i have lost 17-3 to a four and beat a 9 17-3 or 18-2 people could (and did) easily say i was sandbagging. problem is, i am friends and team mates with both guys. hopefully the 9 i am talking about will post in the thread (c'mom tropheus - where ya at whodat). they can tell you i wasn't baggin it and i know they weren't either. but like i said it's rampant around here. as evidenced by our qualifier and city cup and regional singles score sheets. they are cheked and adjusted often during our tournaments. 3's show up and have magical tournaments way too often and get bumped mid tourney.
lastly when it comes to run out pool. i know it sounds like b.s. but a lot of guys around here can and do. and we play mostly on 8 and 9 foot tables. i broke and ran my 1st rack in a match as a 5. my girlfriend is a 4 and hasn't done it in the league yet but has broke and ran twice in tournaments. i've had 4's do it to me in apa matches. it isn't the norm but it happens. and i'm not one of these guys on here that just has all these sats to pop off. i am crap to average at best. my high package is three. and it's in 8 ball. my high pack in 9 is three wins but it's two b-n-r's with a 9 on the snap in the middle. i have run 5 from the break in one pocket on shear luck one time and never come close to that again, ever and in stright pool i belive my high run to be a mere 13 balls (yep, can't even get to the next rack). yet here in atlanta we have more than a few players who i have watched put 5 and 7 packs together in 8 and or 9 ball. one of our local guys runs in the 100's in straight pool more often than i can run in the teens. i don't mention names 'cause i don't like to knock action for people, but if they tell they don't mind i'll post up names (i know at least one of them will read this and talk to me about when i see him- damned lurker. and you know who you are:thumbup

You talking to me......are you talking to me......WHAT UP EVIL! Yeah, you got the best of me that night. And even the time before that. I have never dumped and neither have you. You just hit a gear and it was great to see (just like the 17 - 3 you hung on that sl 7 last night while you were nursing an illness). We have a lot of strong players in the ATL and as it is with any handicapped system, some do and will take advantage of it. Case and point, a couple of division finals ago.....a sl2 from Marietta ran the last 3 or 4 balls of a rack. Broke and ran the next rack, then played defense after the break on the next rack. Is that just luck....maybe, but I haven't seen luck like that. That sl2 shot a 20 - 0 against our 2 in single digit innings that night.

 

[boyersj]

The various areas may be equalize but i assure you the tables dont. I know of leagues where the players always play on 8 foot connellys with buckets for pockets and they are all rated at least a skill level above where they should be. We always play on 9 foot Olhausens with 4.5 inch pockets and when we meet them in tournaments they are in trouble.

That is correct, the tables can play a difference. There is a check for the table at the top of the score sheet (7', 8', or 9') so I am sure there is an attempt at an adjustment but nonetheless it is one aspect that cannot be completely accounted.

If I were to make a wild guess, most matches are played on a 7' valley, 7' diamond, 9' diamond, or a 9' brunswick. There will be exceptions. One nice thing about the VNEA league, the table manufacturer is not a variable!

 

[8up]

I have been an SL4 for 4 sessions. last session my win % was 38% and something like 17% the session before.

The last night of last session I lost to a sl3 in 25 or so innings.

First night of this session I beat a sl3 12-8 in something over 20 innings.

second night this session I beat a sl3 18-2 in 9 innings

I show up to Tri cups where the pockets are huge and play 3 matches all against sl4's . My first 2 matches ended with me winning 13-7 and about 15-16 innings each. My 3rd match on the same table as the previous match I am put up first and I win in 5 innings 20-0 (my first skunk) ball count was 31-4.

So now my handicap has went up to a SL5 with only a month until my first singles regional. As a strong SL4 I might have a chance but as a very week SL5 I doubt I have anything but the prayer I will say before the match.