So What Does One Do When They Don't Have a Decent Local Mechanic...?

[The_JV]

Looks good. Are you making adequate clearance for the mounting bosses and installing threaded inserts to fasten the pocket liners?

Yup, and not yet. The minimum clearances were needed just to get the pocket liner to sit as it does in the above pics. This includes the bosses. I do plan on utilizing threaded inserts to hold the liner in place.

My concerns regarding the liners at the moment are height, and potential damage to the wood of the new corners.

Height:
-I highly doubt the top side rail profile of my table matches that of the BlackCrown 2. Combine that with the BC2's use of the metal hardware at the corners and I'm thinking my pocket liner height may be notiably lower then what the liners are actually designed for. As a rudamentary check, I laid my metal rule flat on the slate and extended it into the pocket. Used it to gauge typical ball height when striking the back of the pocket. The ball's equator is well beneath the liner lip, but high enough to warrant a "hope this works out" comment from me....lol. Time will tell I suppose.

Damage:
-In their intended application. These liners are mounted within a metal casting which merely provides a lip (shoulder) for the liner to sit on, and two locations to bolt them into place. Metal obviously being stronger than wood requires much less material to perform any task. This allows for zero material behind the liners. So when a ball is fired into the back of the pocket. The liner flexes to absorb that force as it redirects it into the bottom of the pocket. In my application, the liner may flex enough while being struck to allow it to contact the wooden corner caps. Yes, I can remove more material behind the pocket, but as I do everything gets weaker, and I'm concerned about the lip/shoulder becoming so unsupported that it may suffer unrecoverable damage.

I'm thinking I may use some the facing material I was given (not the 60A) as a backer between the liner and wood cap. If it's good enough to protect the subrail faces then it must be good enough to protect the back of the pocket as well.

Thoughts...?

 

[rexus31]

Yup, and not yet. The minimum clearances were needed just to get the pocket liner to sit as it does in the above pics. This includes the bosses. I do plan on utilizing threaded inserts to hold the liner in place.

My concerns regarding the liners at the moment are height, and potential damage to the wood of the new corners.

Height:
-I highly doubt the top side rail profile of my table matches that of the BlackCrown 2. Combine that with the BC2's use of the metal hardware at the corners and I'm thinking my pocket liner height may be notiably lower then what the liners are actually designed for. As a rudamentary check, I laid my metal rule flat on the slate and extended it into the pocket. Used it to gauge typical ball height when striking the back of the pocket. The ball's equator is well beneath the liner lip, but high enough to warrant a "hope this works out" comment from me....lol. Time will tell I suppose.

Damage:
-In their intended application. These liners are mounted within a metal casting which merely provides a lip (shoulder) for the liner to sit on, and two locations to bolt them into place. Metal obviously being stronger than wood requires much less material to perform any task. This allows for zero material behind the liners. So when a ball is fired into the back of the pocket. The liner flexes to absorb that force as it redirects it into the bottom of the pocket. In my application, the liner may flex enough while being struck to allow it to contact the wooden corner caps. Yes, I can remove more material behind the pocket, but as I do everything gets weaker, and I'm concerned about the lip/shoulder becoming so unsupported that it may suffer unrecoverable damage.

I'm thinking I may use some the facing material I was given (not the 60A) as a backer between the liner and wood cap. If it's good enough to protect the subrail faces then it must be good enough to protect the back of the pocket as well.

Thoughts...?

The pocket liners on my Gold Crown I contact the back of the casting. They "bottom out" against the casting so yours should do the same against the oak. If they were proud of the casting and flexed as you propose, there would be many failures where the metal washer is formed into the liner at the boss. The flexing would eventually lead to a crack in the rubber/plastic at this point from stress. I'd be concerned with the wood eventually being damaged behind the liner. I converted my previous table to screw in liners. It was a 1950's AMF commercial table similar in design to a Brunswick Sport King or Anniversary, The long rails were one piece with metal castings on the corners. There were no castings for the side pockets so I provisioned the opening for the bosses and installed threaded inserts. I ran this setup for a few years. When I sold it and disassembled to make way for my Gold Crown, there were no signs of wear to the wood around the side pocket opening. It is possible the thickness of the liner will protect the wood from damage.

 

[The_JV]

The pocket liners on my Gold Crown I contact the back of the casting. They "bottom out" against the casting so yours should do the same against the oak. If they were proud of the casting and flexed as you propose, there would be many failures where the metal washer is formed into the liner at the boss. The flexing would eventually lead to a crack in the rubber/plastic at this point from stress. I'd be concerned with the wood eventually being damaged behind the liner. I converted my previous table to screw in liners. It was a 1950's AMF commercial table similar in design to a Brunswick Sport King or Anniversary, The long rails were one piece with metal castings on the corners. There were no castings for the side pockets so I provisioned the opening for the bosses and installed threaded inserts. I ran this setup for a few years. When I sold it and disassembled to make way for my Gold Crown, there were no signs of wear to the wood around the side pocket opening. It is possible the thickness of the liner will protect the wood from damage.

I'm partially thinking that the use of screw in liners will help control the liner movement when pocketing a ball.

I can say that without the liners fastened in place. If I toss a ball at a moderate pace into the pocket, my wood cap shifts backward. Now.., I don't have dowels and/or those miter bolts previously discussed installed, so the movement is expected. However it does clearly demostrate that the potential for wood damage is there.

I'll have to address it in some fashion eventually. As it stands, I have a ton to do otherwise before this table sees play so I'm going to back burner it for now.

 

[bradsh98]

I'm partially thinking that the use of screw in liners will help control the liner movement when pocketing a ball.

I can say that without the liners fastened in place. If I toss a ball at a moderate pace into the pocket, my wood cap shifts backward. Now.., I don't have dowels and/or those miter bolts previously discussed installed, so the movement is expected. However it does clearly demostrate that the potential for wood damage is there.

I'll have to address it in some fashion eventually. As it stands, I have a ton to do otherwise before this table sees play so I'm going to back burner it for now.

I would be more inclined to leave the air gap. This will reduce the amount of force that is transferred to the wood. If you add rubber to eliminate the gap, every bit of impact force will be transferred directly to the wood, unless you use a very soft rubber.

Just my thoughts.

For the sake of comparison, the pocket shields on a Valley barbox are completely open behind the shield. I think that you'll be fine.

 

[The_JV]

I would be more inclined to leave the air gap. This will reduce the amount of force that is transferred to the wood. If you add rubber to eliminate the gap, every bit of impact force will be transferred directly to the wood, unless you use a very soft rubber.

Just my thoughts.

For the sake of comparison, the pocket shields on a Valley barbox are completely open behind the shield. I think that you'll be fine.

Thank you...

The only rubber I have handy is the typical pocket facings you'd get from a run of the mill billiard supplier. I can't speak to the durometer rating, but I know it's stiffer than the 60A I bought for this project.

I don't have an experienced leg to stand on. My thoughts were just that the liner will flex regardless. Without testing to back up my theory. I'm assuming it will flex enough to hit the wood behind it. While I completely agree decoupling with an air gap will prevent full force into the wood. I'm left wondering why wouldn't the same rubber backing that is effectively used to protect subrails wouldn't also do the same to corner caps.

I may just be overstating the amount of flex the liners have. Going to put a pin in this one, and revisit.

 

[The_JV]

So the pin is still in the fix for the flexing pocket liner. I did look under the skirt of a few tables that use metal trim around the pocket liners and it was just as I thought about a void being behind the pocket back. ...so I'm thinking when I roll back to it I'll simply cut in some clearance.

I have taken a little time off work and spent some real effort to move the table project along. I completed all the rail work to facilitate the new pocket liners. That includes the fancy aluminum trim as well. I have 3 offending locations on the rails that needed addressing before I attempted to apply new finish. The first and worst was born of my own ignorance and powertools...

So what you're seeing there is what happens when you give someone a belt sander and the instruction just to make it flat. That rail was the first one I attempted to glue a subrail extension to, and I had it in my head that if it was dead flat I'd have an easier time gluing on the extension. Not first mistake but the worst one was using a belt sander for the task. As you can see, I took a ridiculous amount of material off that rail. So much so that when I discovered my mistake I had to use a chunk of hard maple to make up the lost material. What this of course did is present a different material that would be visible after everything was said and done. ...so that chunk had to go.

Step 1: remove the offending material.
This was laid out by just using a straight edge and a marking knife. I followed up that scored line with a chisel and then removed everything I didn't want.

Step 2: create a matched filler.
The original though here was to use a chunk of the actual rail material from the underside, but cooler head prevailed and I used a bit of the left overs from the wooden corner pieces. The real trick here was to match the orientation of the rail grain. I knew it wouldn't be perfect, but the stain is meant to be dark so with luck it will only be visible to those looking for it.

A little more trimming down with a chisel and we're done. I thought I had a 'finished' pic of it all matched up but I can't find it. Trust me, it's a decent job for a hack. Now once the rails are re-finished and the cloth is installed the only people that will know are the ones I opt to tell, or that stumble across this thread.

With that done I was able to then remove 2 rails to re-cut three miters. After squaring everything up the last time I discovered that 2 pocket dimensions were too small. After further digging I discovered that I had left the bottom short rail 2mm longer than the top one. The bottom long rail section (2pcs) adjacent to that short bottom rail was 1mm long. So I reset and double checked my miter saw settings to trim those back.

The two rails went back to the table and losely bolted into place.

Next order business was to attempt staining. Now I'm not the wood finishing type of guy so I really... really... don't know what I'm doing here. Figured I'd stick to the instructions. Coat evenly and let sit for three minutes before wiping off with a lint free rag

So far so good, but I'm hoping for a slightly dark finish. The plan is to chart the process on this experimental rail until I get the desired end result. Rinse repeat once I have a better grasp of what I'm doing and how to get there. The end caps will be done separately.

 

[fastone371]

So the pin is still in the fix for the flexing pocket liner. I did look under the skirt of a few tables that use metal trim around the pocket liners and it was just as I thought about a void being behind the pocket back. ...so I'm thinking when I roll back to it I'll simply cut in some clearance.

I have taken a little time off work and spent some real effort to move the table project along. I completed all the rail work to facilitate the new pocket liners. That includes the fancy aluminum trim as well. I have 3 offending locations on the rails that needed addressing before I attempted to apply new finish. The first and worst was born of my own ignorance and powertools...
View attachment 636804
So what you're seeing there is what happens when you give someone a belt sander and the instruction just to make it flat. That rail was the first one I attempted to glue a subrail extension to, and I had it in my head that if it was dead flat I'd have an easier time gluing on the extension. Not first mistake but the worst one was using a belt sander for the task. As you can see, I took a ridiculous amount of material off that rail. So much so that when I discovered my mistake I had to use a chunk of hard maple to make up the lost material. What this of course did is present a different material that would be visible after everything was said and done. ...so that chunk had to go.

Step 1: remove the offending material.
This was laid out by just using a straight edge and a marking knife. I followed up that scored line with a chisel and then removed everything I didn't want.
View attachment 636805
Step 2: create a matched filler.
The original though here was to use a chunk of the actual rail material from the underside, but cooler head prevailed and I used a bit of the left overs from the wooden corner pieces. The real trick here was to match the orientation of the rail grain. I knew it wouldn't be perfect, but the stain is meant to be dark so with luck it will only be visible to those looking for it.
View attachment 636807View attachment 636808View attachment 636809
A little more trimming down with a chisel and we're done. I thought I had a 'finished' pic of it all matched up but I can't find it. Trust me, it's a decent job for a hack. Now once the rails are re-finished and the cloth is installed the only people that will know are the ones I opt to tell, or that stumble across this thread.

With that done I was able to then remove 2 rails to re-cut three miters. After squaring everything up the last time I discovered that 2 pocket dimensions were too small. After further digging I discovered that I had left the bottom short rail 2mm longer than the top one. The bottom long rail section (2pcs) adjacent to that short bottom rail was 1mm long. So I reset and double checked my miter saw settings to trim those back.

The two rails went back to the table and losely bolted into place.

Next order business was to attempt staining. Now I'm not the wood finishing type of guy so I really... really... don't know what I'm doing here. Figured I'd stick to the instructions. Coat evenly and let sit for three minutes before wiping off with a lint free rag
View attachment 636813View attachment 636814View attachment 636815
So far so good, but I'm hoping for a slightly dark finish. The plan is to chart the process on this experimental rail until I get the desired end result. Rinse repeat once I have a better grasp of what I'm doing and how to get there. The end caps will be done separately.

Beautiful work!!!

 

[rexus31]

So the pin is still in the fix for the flexing pocket liner. I did look under the skirt of a few tables that use metal trim around the pocket liners and it was just as I thought about a void being behind the pocket back. ...so I'm thinking when I roll back to it I'll simply cut in some clearance.

I have taken a little time off work and spent some real effort to move the table project along. I completed all the rail work to facilitate the new pocket liners. That includes the fancy aluminum trim as well. I have 3 offending locations on the rails that needed addressing before I attempted to apply new finish. The first and worst was born of my own ignorance and powertools...
View attachment 636804
So what you're seeing there is what happens when you give someone a belt sander and the instruction just to make it flat. That rail was the first one I attempted to glue a subrail extension to, and I had it in my head that if it was dead flat I'd have an easier time gluing on the extension. Not first mistake but the worst one was using a belt sander for the task. As you can see, I took a ridiculous amount of material off that rail. So much so that when I discovered my mistake I had to use a chunk of hard maple to make up the lost material. What this of course did is present a different material that would be visible after everything was said and done. ...so that chunk had to go.

Step 1: remove the offending material.
This was laid out by just using a straight edge and a marking knife. I followed up that scored line with a chisel and then removed everything I didn't want.
View attachment 636805
Step 2: create a matched filler.
The original though here was to use a chunk of the actual rail material from the underside, but cooler head prevailed and I used a bit of the left overs from the wooden corner pieces. The real trick here was to match the orientation of the rail grain. I knew it wouldn't be perfect, but the stain is meant to be dark so with luck it will only be visible to those looking for it.
View attachment 636807View attachment 636808View attachment 636809
A little more trimming down with a chisel and we're done. I thought I had a 'finished' pic of it all matched up but I can't find it. Trust me, it's a decent job for a hack. Now once the rails are re-finished and the cloth is installed the only people that will know are the ones I opt to tell, or that stumble across this thread.

With that done I was able to then remove 2 rails to re-cut three miters. After squaring everything up the last time I discovered that 2 pocket dimensions were too small. After further digging I discovered that I had left the bottom short rail 2mm longer than the top one. The bottom long rail section (2pcs) adjacent to that short bottom rail was 1mm long. So I reset and double checked my miter saw settings to trim those back.

The two rails went back to the table and losely bolted into place.

Next order business was to attempt staining. Now I'm not the wood finishing type of guy so I really... really... don't know what I'm doing here. Figured I'd stick to the instructions. Coat evenly and let sit for three minutes before wiping off with a lint free rag
View attachment 636813View attachment 636814View attachment 636815
So far so good, but I'm hoping for a slightly dark finish. The plan is to chart the process on this experimental rail until I get the desired end result. Rinse repeat once I have a better grasp of what I'm doing and how to get there. The end caps will be done separately.

What stain color is that?

 

[The_JV]

Beautiful work!!!

Thank you... there are flaws in the staining that bother me. That's the unfortunate nature of stain though. I'm doing my best not to fixate on it...lol

What stain color is that?

"Espresso"... ...and here's the poly I plan to clear with

 

[TrxR]

So the pin is still in the fix for the flexing pocket liner. I did look under the skirt of a few tables that use metal trim around the pocket liners and it was just as I thought about a void being behind the pocket back. ...so I'm thinking when I roll back to it I'll simply cut in some clearance.

I have taken a little time off work and spent some real effort to move the table project along. I completed all the rail work to facilitate the new pocket liners. That includes the fancy aluminum trim as well. I have 3 offending locations on the rails that needed addressing before I attempted to apply new finish. The first and worst was born of my own ignorance and powertools...
View attachment 636804
So what you're seeing there is what happens when you give someone a belt sander and the instruction just to make it flat. That rail was the first one I attempted to glue a subrail extension to, and I had it in my head that if it was dead flat I'd have an easier time gluing on the extension. Not first mistake but the worst one was using a belt sander for the task. As you can see, I took a ridiculous amount of material off that rail. So much so that when I discovered my mistake I had to use a chunk of hard maple to make up the lost material. What this of course did is present a different material that would be visible after everything was said and done. ...so that chunk had to go.

Step 1: remove the offending material.
This was laid out by just using a straight edge and a marking knife. I followed up that scored line with a chisel and then removed everything I didn't want.
View attachment 636805
Step 2: create a matched filler.
The original though here was to use a chunk of the actual rail material from the underside, but cooler head prevailed and I used a bit of the left overs from the wooden corner pieces. The real trick here was to match the orientation of the rail grain. I knew it wouldn't be perfect, but the stain is meant to be dark so with luck it will only be visible to those looking for it.
View attachment 636807View attachment 636808View attachment 636809
A little more trimming down with a chisel and we're done. I thought I had a 'finished' pic of it all matched up but I can't find it. Trust me, it's a decent job for a hack. Now once the rails are re-finished and the cloth is installed the only people that will know are the ones I opt to tell, or that stumble across this thread.

With that done I was able to then remove 2 rails to re-cut three miters. After squaring everything up the last time I discovered that 2 pocket dimensions were too small. After further digging I discovered that I had left the bottom short rail 2mm longer than the top one. The bottom long rail section (2pcs) adjacent to that short bottom rail was 1mm long. So I reset and double checked my miter saw settings to trim those back.

The two rails went back to the table and losely bolted into place.

Next order business was to attempt staining. Now I'm not the wood finishing type of guy so I really... really... don't know what I'm doing here. Figured I'd stick to the instructions. Coat evenly and let sit for three minutes before wiping off with a lint free rag
View attachment 636813View attachment 636814View attachment 636815
So far so good, but I'm hoping for a slightly dark finish. The plan is to chart the process on this experimental rail until I get the desired end result. Rinse repeat once I have a better grasp of what I'm doing and how to get there. The end caps will be done separately.

Nice work.

Is that a dark walnut?

 

[The_JV]

Nice work.

Is that a dark walnut?

Nope.... "Espresso" by Varathane. For sake of context the wood is Red Oak.

 

[rexus31]

Nope.... "Espresso" by Varathane. For sake of context the wood is Red Oak.

I've found the Minwax Ebony stain very dark but have not tried it on red oak. Perhaps a coat of it on top of what you already applied would yield the look you are going for.

 

[The_JV]

I've found the Minwax Ebony stain very dark but have not tried it on red oak. Perhaps a coat of it on top of what you already applied would yield the look you are going for.

Thank you for the suggestion.

I can continue to apply the varathane product till my heart is content. It has darkened with every application. Being a staining newb, and having tons at my disposal. I thought I'd creep up on it rather than over shoot. As it is, I have reached an acceptable tone. Small areas didn't soak up the stain as well as I had hoped, but for the most part I can sell it as "character"...lol

I found the grain texture really altered how rapidly the rail sections took in the stain and darkened up. For comparison sake... The head rail took 4 applications. At duration of 3mins, 5mins, 10mins and 15min respectively. The section that needed that rework needed only 2 apps.

 

[tomatoshooter]

Nope.... "Espresso" by Varathane. For sake of context the wood is Red Oak.

I don't know if it's the different wood or stain or I'm losing my mind, but I either saw or did some stained wood and the lighter, more porous wood soaked up more stain, inverting the light/dark pattern. I like how yours came out!

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

One of life disadvantages of living in rural areas is you do not have access to things, products, services like if you lived in major city.

The advantages of rural living can also be a plus, verses living in big city.

There is no UTOPIA, and if someone finds such s as place. Do not tell, or it will become another place with problems fast.

 

[The_JV]

One of life disadvantages of living in rural areas is you do not have access to things, products, services like if you lived in major city.

The advantages of rural living can also be a plus, verses living in big city.

There is no UTOPIA, and if someone finds such s as place. Do not tell, or it will become another place with problems fast.

Took me a moment, but I think you're commenting on my lack of access to a decent table mechanic. Well the States only have a couple of examples that get much more major than Toronto, which is 45mins from me. Having a major city doesn't change the competence/experience of local mechanics. Just the likelyhood of finding one.

I could very easily paid for a pro cloth stretcher. Lots of them around. What's going on with this table is well beyond the reach of the norm available I'm afraid.

 

[boogieman]

Took me a moment, but I think you're commenting on my lack of access to a decent table mechanic. Well the States only have a couple of examples that get much more major than Toronto, which is 45mins from me. Having a major city doesn't change the competence/experience of local mechanics. Just the likelyhood of finding one.

I could very easily paid for a pro cloth stretcher. Lots of them around. What's going on with this table is well beyond the reach of the norm available I'm afraid.

If you have the ability to nitpick to perfection, it's kind of hard to leave your baby in the hands of the incompetent. When I set up, then later fixed the pocket rattle on my table I knew I'd never be satisfied with the level of work my local cloth stretchers do.

It's also a huge bonus for you to learn the ins and outs of your table, plus it makes for some good educational material for the rest of us!

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

Took me a moment, but I think you're commenting on my lack of access to a decent table mechanic. Well the States only have a couple of examples that get much more major than Toronto, which is 45mins from me. Having a major city doesn't change the competence/experience of local mechanics. Just the likelyhood of finding one.

I could very easily paid for a pro cloth stretcher. Lots of them around. What's going on with this table is well beyond the reach of the norm available I'm afraid.

Decent is good choice of words, I like professional Is what l like better.

 

[realkingcobra]

Took me a moment, but I think you're commenting on my lack of access to a decent table mechanic. Well the States only have a couple of examples that get much more major than Toronto, which is 45mins from me. Having a major city doesn't change the competence/experience of local mechanics. Just the likelyhood of finding one.

I could very easily paid for a pro cloth stretcher. Lots of them around. What's going on with this table is well beyond the reach of the norm available I'm afraid.

That's because the level of expertise you're in need of just don't fall under the guidelines of 99.9% of the table mechanics available anywhere. Unless the mechanics in question have a background in design and building pool tables, you we're never going to get much help.

Before I was ever considered to be a pool table mechanic, I'm introduction into the line of work was in manufacturing home style pool tables working at Queen City Billiards manufacturering in Seattle, WA. I learned how to build pool tables before I ever learned how to install the cloth on them.

 

[fastone371]

Thank you... there are flaws in the staining that bother me. That's the unfortunate nature of stain though. I'm doing my best not to fixate on it...lol

"Espresso"... ...and here's the poly I plan to clear with
View attachment 637210View attachment 637211

When I stained the rail blinds and legs on my GCI I couldn't find a color stain that matched the rails. I ended up with at least 12 small cans of stain from I think 3 different manufacturers. In the end I started mixing shades together to get the desired results. Its not a perfect match but it was closer than what was available in the can.