SOTU: CSI Changing Guard - Mosconi's Elephant in the Room

Sounds like Mark's contention that the business model for UK-based pool is helped by the Tele-tax was in error.

Pool would only be helped by the license fee if it was shown on the BBC. As the game is crushingly boring to watch, the market share of tv audience would be too small to justify. There are only two main terrestrial BBC channels, so they would only show what people want to watch. They have to be careful what they broadcast. They have a variety of other channels available on digital platforms, which include specialty/niche programming, but again, not enough demand in the UK to include pool on those, either. It is a crying shame the BBC did not launch a dedicated sports channel when it was mooted a decade or so ago. The 3am one pocket graveyard shift could have benefited insomniacs across the land.

If Mark is saying snooker is helped by the license fee, then he is correct, but only to the extent it is a) cheap to broadcast and b) popular. The BBC has strict guidelines to follow when it comes to commissioning its programmes, so cannot disregard viewing figures or VFM considerations entirely.

-------------------------------------------------------

That nobody AFAIK has ever launched PoolTV is telling. Some people are so entirely detached from reality over this product called pool it's untrue. Until the ridiculous 'high price, low volume' ratio is reversed, it will forever be a basket case, but to defend pros for pissing-off an ever dwindling marketplace is misguided in the extreme. Let there be blood.

The tail wags the dog and the fleas are jumping.
 
The tv tax issue makes me wonder, how is such a thing enforced? Do you pay the tax when you purchase a tv? Otherwise how would the man know that you even have a tv?

What about used TVs? Are they taxed too?

Does the tax create "underground" tv watchers who don't pay but use a tv anyway?

Inquiring minds want to know...
 
But more compelling to me was Mr. Griffin's comments about him not considering many of the current "pros" as real "pros" anymore....

1. Who made them " pros" in the first place? Themselves?

2. If there is no governing body, who's to say who is a pro and who is not?

3. If Griffin doesn't consider certain players to be pros anymore, will the rest of the world follow his lead and 'demote' them as well?
 
But more compelling to me was Mr. Griffin's comments about him not considering many of the current "pros" as real "pros" anymore....

1. Who made them " pros" in the first place? Themselves?

2. If there is no governing body, who's to say who is a pro and who is not?

3. If Griffin doesn't consider certain players to be pros anymore, will the rest of the world follow his lead and 'demote' them as well?

In the end, if you make the lion's share of your income from pool, you are pro. This would include those who earn there money teaching pool, just as those who teach golf are referred to as pros.

As you point out, the term pro is somewhat undefined these days, but I'm not sure that's a problem.

I think that Mark is talking about "pro speed" players, and even that term means different things to different people. Still, I know where he's coming from, for the present business model for players is so challenging that, barring an unforeseeable comeback by the WPBL, more than a few who compete at pool for a living will give it up. Sad but true.
 
But more compelling to me was Mr. Griffin's comments about him not considering many of the current "pros" as real "pros" anymore....

1. Who made them " pros" in the first place? Themselves?

2. If there is no governing body, who's to say who is a pro and who is not?

3. If Griffin doesn't consider certain players to be pros anymore, will the rest of the world follow his lead and 'demote' them as well?


or maybe it's just not fun anymore?
 
Regarding the Mark Griffin comment that pro pool players don't appreciate their fans, whereas, for example, baseball players do- always willing to provide autographs, etc. When pro pool players earn a few million a year rather than living hand to mouth a lot of people might be surprised how friendly they could become.

I agree, though, that there should be some minimum standard of conduct for every party involved and if that can only be enforced by a private party who is influential then so be it.

Cart before the horse. Appreciation of and respect for the fan base in any sport is a requirement for, not a result of, success.
 
Why is it always the American pros are scrutinized in the pool world?

People seem to enjoy piling on the bash-pro threads, but there are others who don't have clean hands in American pool, aside from the pros. Nobody utters a peep about it.

With this continuing trend of decimating the American pros, we can all just hammer in the final nail on the American professional pool coffin. Is that the goal here with the continuing criticizing?

A novel idea would be to think of a way to fix it. Cultivate the youth. Donate to the BEF. Have pro exhibitions for charity events.

I guess it's easier to just continue to slam the American pros at every turn. :(

Why do you always feel the need to be the self appointed white knight who rides to their defense every time? You mention the others who don't have clean hands who never get mentioned, but you ironically have spoken fondly of Kevin Trudeau and the IPT more than once.
 
Why do you always feel the need to be the self appointed white knight who rides to their defense every time? You mention the others who don't have clean hands who never get mentioned, but you ironically have spoken fondly of Kevin Trudeau and the IPT more than once.

I am exercising my First Amendment rights, as are you.

I don't have a problem with Kevin Trueau and the IPT as it pertains to pool, because my experience interesting with Kevin Trudeau and the IPT was quite different than others, as it pertains to pool. Ironically, there are peope in the pool industry who made their money in a similar fashion as Kevin Trudeau. Nobody utters a peep.

I'm not self-appointed; I'm a forum member. As such, I will post on topics I want to contribute to. I have just as much right to my opinion as you do
 
I am exercising my First Amendment rights, as are you.



I'm not self-appointed; I'm a forum member. As such, I will post on topics I want to contribute to. I have just as much right to my opinion as you do

Lol. You're FOREVER trying to shut people up and suppress free speech!
 
That sounds a lot like a platitude devoid of proof.

And your post, to me, seems to evidence the sense of entitlement that has plagued our sport for years. Your view, and you may clarify it I've misinterpreted it, is that once the pro pool product is a big seller that brings great income to the pros, they will be more appreciative of those who buy it. Yes, that's definitely true and I respect your opinion.

My view is that good public relations is one of the ingredients for success that pro pool in America lacks and that how the players treat the fan base is part of public relations. That's my opinion, and no, I can't prove it, but I've spent 37 years around pro pool and it's my highly informed opinion based on decades of observation and experience.
 
You are very glibly pretending that BBC and other broadcasters didn't CREATE the viewership for snooker.

Of course broadcasters CREATED the viewership - who else was going to do it? :rolleyes:

Broadcasters are perfectly able to CREATE the viewership for pool, too. Perhaps you can tell me why they don't, then apply it to your second 'point'...


Your congenitally sniffy assertion that snooker is more interesting to watch than pool is nothing more than a pretentiously delusional projection.

Yeah. We're a nation of pretentiously delusional projectionisters. It's just what we do. Millions of us. Projectioning. :rolleyes:

Denial. Not just a river in Africa, Bob.
 
And your post, to me, seems to evidence the sense of entitlement that has plagued our sport for years. Your view, and you may clarify it I've misinterpreted it, is that once the pro pool product is a big seller that brings great income to the pros, they will be more appreciative of those who buy it. Yes, that's definitely true and I respect your opinion.

My view is that good public relations is one of the ingredients for success that pro pool in America lacks and that how the players treat the fan base is part of public relations. That's my opinion, and no, I can't prove it, but I've spent 37 years around pro pool and it's my highly informed opinion based on decades of observation and experience.

IS there a fan base for pro pool though? Surely we're all just players? I can't imagine there are many people who wake up one day and suddenly decide to go watch a game of pool, and become lifelong fans, seeking autographs, buying merchandising and putting posters of Johnny Archer on their wall?
 
IS there a fan base for pro pool though? Surely we're all just players? I can't imagine there are many people who wake up one day and suddenly decide to go watch a game of pool, and become lifelong fans, seeking autographs, buying merchandising and putting posters of Johnny Archer on their wall?

Good post. Outside of the BCAPL pro events, the US Open and Derby City, where fanfare is in the thousands, live fanfare for pro pool is usually in the hundreds.

Still, it's a bit different from baseball. I'm a big fan and have been to over 1,000 live baseball games in my life, but I've never collected autographs or bought much merchandise or posters. At baseball games, players who are no longer eligible to play (such as injured players, players that have been pinch hit for or pitchers that have been removed) don't go and sit in the stands dressed as if they just painted the house and they don't use foul language as they watch. Baseball players, and admittedly this is only my own personal experience, take themselves a little more seriously and feel a little more obligation to their fans than most athletes.

The small numbers that attend pro pool events may bear out that all this is just a small ingredient in pool's recipe for failure, but, far too often, it make the pros look bad, and, as somebody keen on seeing the sport succeed, that bothers me.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
 
Lol. You're FOREVER trying to shut people up and suppress free speech!

No, this is not true. I think we are all entitled to our own opinions, but when a multiple-identitied banned member continues to float in and out of theads with sarcastic and flippant posts, usually for one reason and one reason only -- TO ANNOY OTHERS -- then I will call it like I see it, Pathetic Troll.:)

If your posts are related to pool, then that is a good thing, but when they go after a member targeting them with assine words aimed to get that particular member upset or angry or hurt, it is what a troll does on forums.
 
Both partially Wrong

Pretty interesting stuff.

Finally, he noted that American pool will never have the business model enjoyed by Matchroom, a beneficiary of the Tele-tax in the UK which is approximately $200 per family in the UK, and which raises huge moneys for the British networks to fund their programming.
sjm is referring to Mark's comments on stream.

"I'm afraid this is incorrect, MS programs are NOT aired on the BBC (which is funded by the taxpayer via a TV licence fee) and as such is a purely commercial company as are any of the other companies that create content for various TV and satellite stations. As such their products (mosconi, WPM etc) have to stand on its own commercial footing and be of a quality level that generates the audience figures that make the companies like SKY wish to continue to purchase them."

CraigS

I believe that both of these comments are partially wrong. First, I don't know about the Tele-Tax itself. However, all countries other than the US is, at the least, partially subsidized by the government. The US has unique ideas about some issues (this is one) unlike any country in the world. We distrust government overall. Therefore, we frown upon the government taking part of business more than others. We also believe that our voice should be greater than the government (shorter leadership terms). When the government gets involved, we usually call it "interfering with business." Other countries are more likely to trust the government to protect their welfare or don't have the tools in place to make immediate changes.

Because of these beliefs, the US government will not subsidize any portion of television programming (with small exception of PBS, which is irrelevant to mainstream). ALL OTHER COUNTRIES PARTIALLY SUBSIDIZE ALL STATIONS, ESPECIALLY NEWS. This gives the government some, even if a little, voice in programming. A good example is the criticism of Rupert Murdock's (owner of SKY and in the US Fox broadcasting) deep ties to government officials and possible payoffs. Now, I do agree that the BBC (which has some of the best programming in the world) may be the only fully owned British government's stations. All other stations still have some government oversight. And other programming must compete with other stations in their programming. But, all stations are still influenced by their government. Remember, all of Western Europe is different than the US in many aspects. Sure, we are very similar in many also. The best advice is that you cannot compare apples to oranges. You cannot simply assume that what works in Western Europe will work in the US. This is something that we (in US) have learned about freedom. Our ideas about freedom does not translate into the same idea of freedom in … say, Iraq, Afghanistan, or any other country.

BTW, I would imagine that pocket billiards still falling under the umbrella of the Olympics (barely), would give the government some incentive to see billiards flourish. I believe the popularity of the sport in Asia and Europe may catapult it into a more prominent role in the future. In US, (b/c of ideas mentioned above) we do not subsidize the Olympics ANY. The US Olympic committee is owned by the people. But, we plan ahead (novel idea for our sport, rather than react) and use this for more prominent, mainstream sponsorship. The idea of looking ahead must happen by the leadership getting together and talking (not making decisions, just talking and learning from one another). Mainstream sponsorship is key to growth, but not necessary for our existence.

Daren Johnson

PS...The funny thing is the paradox with all above comments with the rating system and the "seven dirty words" rules that our government enforces "over air" programming of ABC, CBS, NBC, Fox etc. If you see programming in other countries, US'ers are usually surprised by nudity in other countries programming. It is really funny to me.
 
PS...The funny thing is the paradox with all above comments with the rating system and the "seven dirty words" rules that our government enforces "over air" programming of ABC, CBS, NBC, Fox etc. If you see programming in other countries, US'ers are usually surprised by nudity in other countries programming. It is really funny to me.

Europe views evangelical puritanism with deep suspicion. Give us crap government over that any day.

Thank god for smut.
 
i can't speak for the UK, but i do know that most all other European countries' governments offer incentives for their furniture manufacturers, to do business in the US. Canada, too.

they subsidize: salary & living expenses for an Export Manager to move here, travel expenses, advertising, Furniture Show leases, an extra 3% commisssion for reps, and 10-50% discount on product.

they subsidize a LOT. and in turn, the mfg has to produce sales for their country & further the name - at whatever cost or they lose their funding.

maybe this is what Mark is referring to?
 
JMHO. Until such time as "pros" are motivated to all act professionally, the product that's sold is questionable and the market limited.

Pros' behavior is a product of the environment. They're playing 3 card monty with 2 cards. They're F'd right now.

Until there's unified promoters and/or a strong governing body, the product is severely limited. No enforceable code of conduct = shenannigans and negligible money.

The promoters won't get on the same page. Some want to, others are knuckleheaded. Fragmented.

10 squirrels fighting over a nut.
 
JMHO. Until such time as "pros" are motivated to all act professionally, the product that's sold is questionable and the market limited.

Pros' behavior is a product of the environment. They're playing 3 card monty with 2 cards. They're F'd right now.

Until there's unified promoters and/or a strong governing body, the product is severely limited. No enforceable code of conduct = shenannigans and negligible money.

The promoters won't get on the same page. Some want to, others are knuckleheaded. Fragmented.

10 squirrels fighting over a nut.

KK9, I agree. There has to be a starting point. I think this could be it.
 
Back
Top