Spf

[CJ Wiley]

have a very good understanding of how the cue moves FORWARD from the top

I've never seen anybody pause that long. 2 to 4 seconds is a L-O-N-G time. A 1 second pause is a long time.

There is a transition time with every player, it's just a matter of how abbreviated it is. We call this "The Gathering of the Shot"....and players like Buddy Hall do it beautifully - this is one of the reasons he was known to have the best cue ball control in history.

It requires energy to take the cue back and it takes more energy to redirect the cue. Mentally (usually sub consciously) there's a calculation that must take place to equate the forward movement of the cue with the speed and length of the shot. I like to practice exaggerating this technique so that there's a distinct forward motion of the cue......after all, we never hit the cue ball with our back-swing, it's just used to coil the cue back before the moment of release - or they say "the moment of highest tension".

There is one school of thought that the follow through doesn't matter because the cue ball is already gone. This may be true in one respect, especially if you just look at the stroke mechanically. However, from my experience it's vital to control the after contact movement of the cue ball WITH the length of the follow through.

This is what gives the player that high degree of touch and feel for the game that's essential for top notch performance under pressure......when you are in that "do or die" situation.

When I want the "after contact" movement of the cue ball to be exaggerated I exaggerate the follow through, when I want the "after contact" movement to be compat, then I compact my follow through.....even if I want the cue ball to jump slightly I'll use a "staccato type" follow through that creates that movement.

If I didn't have a very good understanding of how the cue moves FORWARD from the top of the back-swing I would not be able to play at the champion's level of performance. Whether a player is aware of it or not the follow through must connect to the "after contact" reaction of the cue ball....or you'll always be playing a "guessing game," and it really shows up under the pressure of a high dollar match or tournament.

The cue ball's reaction, at the highest level is a reflection of what the cue is doing......the more you can calibrate the cue's motion to coincide with the cue ball's "after contact" reaction the better off you will be.......this is one of the essential "differences that make a difference" in winning or just coming close. 'The Inner Game is the Teacher'

 

[Pathetic Shark]

There is a transition time with every player, it's just a matter of how abbreviated it is. We call this "The Gathering of the Shot"....and players like Buddy Hall do it beautifully - this is one of the reasons he was known to have the best cue ball control in history.

It requires energy to take the cue back and it takes more energy to redirect the cue. Mentally (usually sub consciously) there's a calculation that must take place to equate the forward movement of the cue with the speed and length of the shot. I like to practice exaggerating this technique so that there's a distinct forward motion of the cue......after all, we never hit the cue ball with our back-swing, it's just used to coil the cue back before the moment of release - or they say "the moment of highest tension".

There is one school of thought that the follow through doesn't matter because the cue ball is already gone. This may be true in one respect, especially if you just look at the stroke mechanically. However, from my experience it's vital to control the after contact movement of the cue ball WITH the length of the follow through.

This is what gives the player that high degree of touch and feel for the game that's essential for top notch performance under pressure......when you are in that "do or die" situation.

When I want the "after contact" movement of the cue ball to be exaggerated I exaggerate the follow through, when I want the "after contact" movement to be compat, then I compact my follow through.....even if I want the cue ball to jump slightly I'll use a "staccato type" follow through that creates that movement.

If I didn't have a very good understanding of how the cue moves FORWARD from the top of the back-swing I would not be able to play at the champion's level of performance. Whether a player is aware of it or not the follow through must connect to the "after contact" reaction of the cue ball....or you'll always be playing a "guessing game," and it really shows up under the pressure of a high dollar match or tournament.

The cue ball's reaction, at the highest level is a reflection of what the cue is doing......the more you can calibrate the cue's motion to coincide with the cue ball's "after contact" reaction the better off you will be.......this is one of the essential "differences that make a difference" in winning or just coming close. 'The Inner Game is the Teacher'

Couldn't agree more. Snooker coaches would be appalled at what some people say on this site about follow through. And they tend to produce good results.

 

[Neil]

Couldn't agree more. Snooker coaches would be appalled at what some people say on this site about follow through. And they tend to produce good results.

That's because you are so stuck on what you think we are saying, that you totally miss what actually is being said.

 

[Pathetic Shark]

That's because you are so stuck on what you think we are saying, that you totally miss what actually is being said.

Yeah, that must be it.

 

[Neil]

Yeah, that must be it.

Yep, if you want, start another thread on it so this one doesn't get derailed anymore.

 

[dr_dave]

There is one school of thought that the follow through doesn't matter because the cue ball is already gone. This may be true in one respect, especially if you just look at the stroke mechanically. However, from my experience it's vital to control the after contact movement of the cue ball WITH the length of the follow through.

It is true that what happens during the follow through has no direct affect on the CB's motion, because the tip is no longer in contact with the CB. However, the follow-through is usually a good indicator of the quality and nature of the stroke into the ball, which does matter quite a bit. For example, if the follow-through is very short, it could indicate a decelerating or over-constrained stroke into the ball, which can adversely affect speed control. Also, if the follow-through involves tip lift (due to elbow drop) or steer (due to a flying "chicken-wing" elbow), these motions might be starting before tip contact, during the stroke into the ball, and this could definitely affect cue-tip-contact-point and aiming accuracy.

In other words, the follow-through is not the cause of a good stroke into the ball, but it is often and strong indicator of a good stroke into the ball. The Follow Through is definitely an important Teacher of the Game.

For more info, see the stroke follow through resource page.

Regards,
Dave

 

[Island Drive]

Before you pull the trigger

To put it simply....when you walk up to the shot you MUST know where your going to cue the white ball First, before you set your bridge hand on table. To me this in the most important part of the shot. This way, all the weight, power and execution and control of the shot will be focused on that part of the cue ball only. What is not often talked about, is, once you contacting the cue ball if they have come to realize their natural tendencies to go one direction or another or Buddy Hall style

Walk up to the English....set your bridge hand on the table, and finish your psr from there.
Walking up to the shot & walking up to the English are different mindsets.

 

[BeiberLvr]

It is true that what happens during the follow through has no direct affect on the CB's motion, because the tip is no longer in contact with the CB. However, the follow-through is usually a good indicator of the quality and nature of the stroke into the ball, which does matter quite a bit. For example, if the follow-through is very short, it could indicate a decelerating or over-constrained stroke into the ball, which can adversely affect speed control. Also, if the follow-through involves tip lift (due to elbow drop) or steer (due to a flying "chicken-wing" elbow), these motions might be starting before tip contact, during the stroke into the ball, and this could definitely affect cue-tip-contact-point and aiming accuracy.

In other words, the follow-through is not the cause of a good stroke into the ball, but it is often and strong indicator of a good stroke into the ball. The Follow Through is definitely an important Teacher of the Game.

For more info, see the stroke follow through resource page.

Regards,
Dave

I think a lot of people confuse follow through with dropping the elbow, as if folks that use a fixed elbow stroke stop as soon as they hit the CB, and that's simply just not true.

If I don't drop my elbow and stop the stroke when my forearm hits my bicep, I can still get the tip a good 3-4" past the CB. That's plenty, imo.

 

[randyg]

I think a lot of people confuse follow through with dropping the elbow, as if folks that use a fixed elbow stroke stop as soon as they hit the CB, and that's simply just not true.

If I don't drop my elbow and stop the stroke when my forearm hits my bicep, I can still get the tip a good 3-4" past the CB. That's plenty, imo.

That's a good Finish position for you. Well done!
On every Standard stroke I Finish 5.5 inches on the other side of the cue ball.
That's my Natural Finish position without dropping my elbow.

randyg

 

[Petros Andrikop]

Another very interesting thread, very valuable information, just a few "off the road" posts which lead to other stroke related topics which are not necessary to open here.
Besides the uses of the pause feature, the mechanics behind it and the different approaches an average player should remember: to incorporate a pause into your stroke (after learning to stroke for some time without it) you need to have a lot of time available to practice it seriously, along with a lot of actual test time at the "batlle field".
If you do have a lot of time available and you see that this feature helps you go ahead.
If not, you need to balance your practice time plan between the other things you need to practice.

 

[Scott Lee]

Nice post Dave! One of the reasons we teach our students to 'finish' their stroke, as opposed to 'follow through', is because the term 'followthrough' is actually a misnomer. You don't "hit the ball and follow through" (just like in baseball, tennis, golf, hockey, etc...none of which you 'hit the ball/puck, and then follow through'...you just swing the bat/club/racquet/stick, and hope your hand-eye coordination allows you to accurately strike the intended target...it is a smooth forward, perfectly timed movement)...in other words, you FINISH your stroke, which will likely be somewhat different between students, in terms of where the stroke is done, and the tip movement completed (this is a measurable indicator).

If you finish your stroke (elbow drop or not), you will get followthrough every time. How much is a personal factor, based on several variables, including body style, height and stance, among other things. Mike Page describes the finish very well. Many amateur players (and pros...even some instructors too) believe, mistakenly IMO, that exaggerated followthroughs affect what happens with the CB after contact. They don't...the dwell time between tip and CB is simply too short to be a factor. What does affect the outcome, is how accurate the tip contact with the CB is, and how perfect the timing of the swing is.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

It is true that what happens during the follow through has no direct affect on the CB's motion, because the tip is no longer in contact with the CB. However, the follow-through is usually a good indicator of the quality and nature of the stroke into the ball, which does matter quite a bit. For example, if the follow-through is very short, it could indicate a decelerating or over-constrained stroke into the ball, which can adversely affect speed control. Also, if the follow-through involves tip lift (due to elbow drop) or steer (due to a flying "chicken-wing" elbow), these motions might be starting before tip contact, during the stroke into the ball, and this could definitely affect cue-tip-contact-point and aiming accuracy.

In other words, the follow-through is not the cause of a good stroke into the ball, but it is often and strong indicator of a good stroke into the ball. The Follow Through is definitely an important Teacher of the Game.

For more info, see the stroke follow through resource page.

Regards,
Dave

 

[Scott Lee]

Petros...That is not necessarily true. For most SPF students, they ingrain the pauses in short order...often within 2-3 weeks of disciplined, short duration, high focus, measured training. I've seen some students groove it in in less than a week...and of course some that still didn't have after several months (usually that is a function not enough time to practice, or not practicing the optimum way). :grin: I certainly agree that, at some point, you have to "cross over" from training, to competition, and "test" your process under pressure.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Besides the uses of the pause feature, the mechanics behind it and the different approaches an average player should remember: to incorporate a pause into your stroke (after learning to stroke for some time without it) you need to have a lot of time available to practice it seriously, along with a lot of actual test time at the "batlle field". If you do have a lot of time available and you see that this feature helps you go ahead. If not, you need to balance your practice time plan between the other things you need to practice.

 

[Petros Andrikop]

Petros...That is not necessarily true. For most SPF students, they ingrain the pauses in short order...often within 2-3 weeks of disciplined, short duration, high focus, measured training. I've seen some students groove it in in less than a week...and of course some that still didn't have after several months (usually that is a function not enough time to practice, or not practicing the optimum way). :grin: I certainly agree that, at some point, you have to "cross over" from training, to competition, and "test" your process under pressure.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Thanks for replying, I should have stressed more the point of testing under competition versus time needed to start stroking in a new way.
I agree that one doesn't need too much time to start using a new technique, I'm just sceptical about how much time is needed until it really settles down into a competitive level. That is why I mentioned the importance of balance between the various things that need to be practiced, practice goals also depend on how much time is available.
Best,
Petros

 

[Scott Lee]

Petros...Very true! You can be Champion of the World...in your basement...but at some point you have to go swim in the deep end of the pool, just to see if you can survive! :grin: Instruction is great...disciplined practice is great...practicing playing is great...but tough competition trumps them all, to see how you really "measure up"!

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Thanks for replying, I should have stressed more the point of testing under competition versus time needed to start stroking in a new way.
I agree that one doesn't need too much time to start using a new technique, I'm just sceptical about how much time is needed until it really settles down into a competitive level. That is why I mentioned the importance of balance between the various things that need to be practiced, practice goals also depend on how much time is available.
Best,
Petros

 

[Petros Andrikop]

Petros...Very true! You can be Champion of the World...in your basement...but at some point you have to go swim in the deep end of the pool, just to see if you can survive! :grin: Instruction is great...disciplined practice is great...practicing playing is great...but tough competition trumps them all, to see how you really "measure up"!

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Yes indeed, on top of that I would offer this example:
If a player is planning to participate in tournaments for the next 6 months and has 10 hours/week available for practice, IMHO she/he should even spread as much as possible those hours and avoid spending practice time about pause into her/his stroke, if this is something new for her/him.
If she/he has 6 hours/day available for practice over that period then yes, I believe pause can be practiced enough to reach a level where it won't bring any doubt in crucial moments.
Thanks again,
Petros

 

[CJ Wiley]

{one of the key ways} how champion players have impeccable control over the cue ball.

In other words, the follow-through is not the cause of a good stroke into the ball, but it is often and strong indicator of a good stroke into the ball. The Follow Through is definitely an important Teacher of the Game.


Regards,
Dave

You will see this more clearly in golf and how the follow through influences ball flight.

Hank Haney had Tiger Woods doing more practice strokes than usual when they first started working together to emphasize this factor.

In the golf swing a low follow through will produce a low ball flight.

A high right to left follow through will produce a high, right to left ball flight, etc.

The ball's reaction "mirrors" the ball flight......and thus can be used to control it through rehearsing and training the mind to perform this task...."mind trick or trick of the mind?"

This is the way to perform an otherwise complicated task of the downswing by concentrating on the "mirror" reflection, which is the follow through.

The same rules apply in pool and this is {one of the key ways} how champion players have impeccable control over the cue ball.

 

[CJ Wiley]

I went to Cliff Thorburn's** snooker coach and he gave me a lesson on stance & stroke

Couldn't agree more. Snooker coaches would be appalled at what some people say on this site about follow through. And they tend to produce good results.

Yes, at my first Professional Tournament in Toronto Canada I had wins over Efren Reyes, Earl Strickland, Jimmy Rempe, Mike Lebron and Chris Woods. Even after finishing 4th place I KNEW there was something missing from my game.

I went to Cliff Thorburn's** snooker coach and he gave me a lesson on stance, stroke and follow through.....I eagerly applied the techniques to my game and within 3 weeks of extremely dedicated work my game jumped up another notch.....and stayed there for the next 7 years (until I took a sabbatical in 98).

No one can tell me that snooker coaches don't know about stance, stroke and follow through, I'm living proof that it can directly apply to pocket billiards effectively.

'The Game is the Teacher' - when we're willing to learn.

**
Clifford Charles Devlin Thorburn CM, known as Cliff Thorburn (born January 16, 1948 in Victoria, British Columbia) is a retired professional Canadian snooker player. A former world number one (one of only ten players to hold that spot), he was world snooker champion in 1980, one of only three players from outside the United Kingdom to win the world title in the modern era (along with Ken Doherty and Neil Robertson). In 1983, Thorburn became the first player to compile a maximum break at the world championships. His slow, determined style of play earned him the nickname "The Grinder".