Sportsmanship

[NewStroke]

You all may have addressed this before, but I was watching the 2004 Skins Championship Semi Final and saw something that really bothered me. Strickland was shooting the 4 ball and hit it cleanly but when pulling his cue back he hit the 5. A clear foul. Williams called the foul but Earl responded that the ref did not see it and was forced to shoot from a crappy position. Williams ended up winning but would you have called the foul on yourself?

I know that if I was 5 games ahead or 5 games down I would have called the foul and given my opponent ball in hand. Billiards is supposed to be a gentleman's game, much like golf, are there than many people out there that will go to that extent to win a game?

 

[bfdlad]

I always call the foul on myself. For 2 reasons, first it is the right thing to do. Secondly if you don't say anything and someone else sees it then your personal credibility will be in question. I like being able to say something to someone and they take my word for it because I have a reputation for being honest. I think once you start cheating or being dishonest nomatter how small u just took something away from yourself that you will not be able to get back.

 

[center pocket]

I saw this same match just three days ago. When I am gambling, anything goes, especially if the person I am playing does shady sh*t. When I am in a tournie and there is no ref, it is up to the players to be honest and I am. If there is a ref, its not up to me to call the fouls, its up to the refs. Think about it this way, if you were earl and you were playing one rack for 16 dimes, would you want to give your opponent a chance to win when you dont have too?? The ref has the final say. It can be in your favor and sometimes wrongly against you, thats how it goes.

 

[NewStroke]

Think about it this way, if you were earl and you were playing one rack for 16 dimes, would you want to give your opponent a chance to win when you dont have too??

I see your point, but I still would not feel good about it. It always appears to me that doing things like that come back to bite you in the ass. 16K is a lot of money, but feeling good about myself is worth much more to me.

 

[dr2112]

I agree with you NewStroke. Integrity is priceless!! I saw that to and was quite shocked to say the least. 16K is a lot of coin but atleast the carma caught up to him. To me that was an embarrasment to him, his sponsors and the integrity of the game. He is no longer on my list of favorite players.

 

[alstl]

Are you sure it was a foul or were they playing cue ball fouls only? If it was a foul then Earl should have admitted it.

 

[cardiac kid]

Wish this was Earl's only indiscretion at the pool table. Witnessed a far worse one in Reno several years ago. He clearly missed the ball he was trying to carom off. The nine went in. Earl raised his cue aloft in victory as it was the final point from hill - hill. His opponent (I believe it was Chet Ito) stared at him in disbelief. Being the gentlemen he is, Chet never verbally chastised Earl. Several of us spectators at that moment did. One, a well known West Coast Pro, told Earl exactly what he thought of him. Earl never ceases to amaze me!

Lyn

 

[BVal]

I saw this same match just three days ago. When I am gambling, anything goes, especially if the person I am playing does shady sh*t. When I am in a tournie and there is no ref, it is up to the players to be honest and I am. If there is a ref, its not up to me to call the fouls, its up to the refs. Think about it this way, if you were earl and you were playing one rack for 16 dimes, would you want to give your opponent a chance to win when you dont have too?? The ref has the final say. It can be in your favor and sometimes wrongly against you, thats how it goes.

I am curious as to why in one situation you have integrity and in the other you don't.

BVal

 

[macguy]

You all may have addressed this before, but I was watching the 2004 Skins Championship Semi Final and saw something that really bothered me. Strickland was shooting the 4 ball and hit it cleanly but when pulling his cue back he hit the 5. A clear foul. Williams called the foul but Earl responded that the ref did not see it and was forced to shoot from a crappy position. Williams ended up winning but would you have called the foul on yourself?

I know that if I was 5 games ahead or 5 games down I would have called the foul and given my opponent ball in hand. Billiards is supposed to be a gentleman's game, much like golf, are there than many people out there that will go to that extent to win a game?

One of the things that has always set golf apart for other sports in the gentleman aspect of the sport. Honesty and integrity is most important. I am sure someone will point out examples of anything but, but never the less that is the publics perception. With pool the public perception is assume if he is a pool player he must be lying. There are very few players who really have a reputation for being honest. The only two I personally know are Tommy Kennedy and Toby Sweet. Toby can be playing for $10,000 and he will not cheat.

I saw Toby playing Wade Crane and at one point Crane won a game and lost track of the score. He asked Toby what the score was and Toby told Crane he made the nine on the break a game ago and didn't move the coin. Crane then moved it two spots. They were playing for $15,000.

It is a shame the sport and players are perceived by the public in this way but may not be undeserved as pointed out by your post.

 

[Andrew Manning]

Are you sure it was a foul or were they playing cue ball fouls only? If it was a foul then Earl should have admitted it.

They were playing all ball fouls. Charlie Williams called the foul and Earl's defense wasn't that he didn't foul, his defense was that Scott Smith didn't see it. Earl was clearly in the wrong in a big way.

I know people who have met Earl say he's a good guy, and so I give him the benefit of the doubt and I believe he is a good guy. But he's an extremely poor sport, in several ways.

-Andrew

 

[MitchAlsup]

Think about it this way, if you were earl and you were playing one rack for 16 dimes, would you want to give your opponent a chance to win when you dont have too??

Yes, the basic question is rephrased as:

"Would you rather loose as a gentleman or win as a *****"?

For myself, I would rather maintain the kind of total integrety that when I do make a call on myself or another, that everyone in the room knows that I don't make bad calls either to help myself nor to hurt another.

I, personally, would rather loose as a gentleman than win as a *****--and this is completely independent of whether money, trophy, or bragging rights are on the line.

 

[Andrew Henson]

Honor

I saw this same match just three days ago. When I am gambling, anything goes, especially if the person I am playing does shady sh*t. When I am in a tournie and there is no ref, it is up to the players to be honest and I am. If there is a ref, its not up to me to call the fouls, its up to the refs. Think about it this way, if you were earl and you were playing one rack for 16 dimes, would you want to give your opponent a chance to win when you dont have too?? The ref has the final say. It can be in your favor and sometimes wrongly against you, thats how it goes.

I don't understand how you can put a price on your honor or integrity. I watched the match and was disgusted by Earl.

 

[stomper]

what a squirrel

Earl is possibley the greatest player of all time. With that said he also has very little character or honor which he has shown time and time again. You always here the stories of how great he is when people meet him, the funny thing is any one can be nice if there trying really hard to. But it is these situations that always show his true colors.

 

[Sam Waltz]

Character

I see your point, but I still would not feel good about it. It always appears to me that doing things like that come back to bite you in the ass. 16K is a lot of money, but feeling good about myself is worth much more to me.

You've got your head on straight and that's a good thing! :thumbup:
I consider this type of action as more of a question of character rather
than sportsmanship. Although I respect Earl's skills as some of the finest
the game has ever seen, I have many a time wondered what makes that
man tick.

This is what I've learned though...

I've known many a great player in this game and I've admired their skills
with awe and wonder, but given the chance to trade places with them and
inherit their abilities I'd have to pass. Why...because along with those
abilities comes the road they've traveled and believe me it isn't always
smooth and brightly lit.

I'm quite sure that walkin' in Earl's shoes for a few years might be a harder
road than many of us wish to take so I'll just continue to admire his
abilities and enjoy the performances whenever I get the chance. IMO,
greatness within any area is lovely to witness, but it isn't always displayed
by unflawed people.

Like many, I'd love to KNOW the path he's taken...but I'm pretty sure I
wouldn't want to walk it myself.

This is just my viewpoint and I'm sure there are many who differ from it.

 

[stormshadow1]

Well put bflad

I always call the foul on myself. For 2 reasons, first it is the right thing to do. Secondly if you don't say anything and someone else sees it then your personal credibility will be in question. I like being able to say something to someone and they take my word for it because I have a reputation for being honest. I think once you start cheating or being dishonest nomatter how small u just took something away from yourself that you will not be able to get back.

I could not have put any better.Well said bflad.I always call a foul on myself regardless of the scenario money match or league.You can never regain that karma.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Think about it this way, if you were earl and you were playing one rack for 16 dimes, would you want to give your opponent a chance to win when you dont have too??

Think about it this way: do you want to play against somebody for any amount if they think "anything goes because it's for money"?

pj
chgo

 

[macguy]

You've got your head on straight and that's a good thing! :thumbup:
I consider this type of action as more of a question of character rather
than sportsmanship. Although I respect Earl's skills as some of the finest
the game has ever seen, I have many a time wondered what makes that
man tick.

This is what I've learned though...

I've known many a great player in this game and I've admired their skills
with awe and wonder, but given the chance to trade places with them and
inherit their abilities I'd have to pass. Why...because along with those
abilities comes the road they've traveled and believe me it isn't always
smooth and brightly lit.

I'm quite sure that walkin' in Earl's shoes for a few years might be a harder
road than many of us wish to take so I'll just continue to admire his
abilities and enjoy the performances whenever I get the chance. IMO,
greatness within any area is lovely to witness, but it isn't always displayed
by unflawed people.

Like many, I'd love to KNOW the path he's taken...but I'm pretty sure I
wouldn't want to walk it myself.

This is just my viewpoint and I'm sure there are many who differ from it.

The game didn't make him become that way. He was an A/H when he was a kid. Skill or no skill, he is a contributing factor to what is wrong with the game.

 

[Big Perm]

Think about it this way: do you want to play against somebody for any amount if they think "anything goes because it's for money"?

pj
chgo

Reminds me of an entertaining old story (in old man voice):

I'm hangin with my buddy Liz in college....we been drinking....we are buds, but she thinks I am a manwhore so she ain't giving me no love....

"I don't know why women like to be with you"

I reply, "Why, wouldn't you sleep with me for $10 million dollars?"

"Well, maybe for $10 million, I guess you aren't that bad"

I reply, "But would you sleep with me for $1?"

"No, do you think I am a whore or something?"

I reply, "we've already answered that question - at this point, we're just negotating price"



Methinks integrity is integrity....there is a similar offering at the beginnning of the "Family Man", if any of you have seen the movie....quick scene with Don Cheadle and Nick Cage....

 

[alstl]

They were playing all ball fouls. Charlie Williams called the foul and Earl's defense wasn't that he didn't foul, his defense was that Scott Smith didn't see it. Earl was clearly in the wrong in a big way.

I know people who have met Earl say he's a good guy, and so I give him the benefit of the doubt and I believe he is a good guy. But he's an extremely poor sport, in several ways.

-Andrew

Agreed, if it was all balls then he was wrong.

 

[Mr441]

It cracks me up when every one talks about honor and integrity yet you'll never see a baseball player say he was really out when an umpire called him safe stealing a base when everyone even the base stealer knows damn well he was out by a mile. Yet no one ever thinks the ball player has no integrity, so why should it be any different with pool? And don't give me that "pool is a gentlemans game" crap, whe're talking about pool here! You'd be hard pressed to find a sport with more ex-convicts, degenerates and all around shifty characters!