Squirt. End Mass and Cue Flexibility.
- Thread starter LAMas
- Start date
I was watching Ernesto at TS last year and noticed how ridiculously thin his shaft is, but I didn't think it was that (11mm) thin. He can play some pretty amazing pool with that toothpick, though.
Several years ago it was posted that Ernesto and Oscar played with a 9mm shaft.
Oscar noticed that I had a Z2 and asked to try it out. After several shots, he said that he liked it and told his Dad. A few months later, he had a Z2.
Be well
been saying such things since 09 and the physical proto types are there to match.....because i been telling everyone since before that, that such things as laminations have no direct correlation to them being low deflection. The only thing that lamination could possibly do to help this is that a laminated shaft can be engineered to have equal quantities of deflection 306deg around its circumference.
hell royce even came out many times stating that its nothing more than a production waste and cost saving measure that provides better quality control on the back end for the customer.
I'm not down with hollow things. When my friend busted his predator ferrule for the 3 time (and he is a fine player and is not to blame 100%) and pretty much told him to eat crow when it came to repairing it........yea neither of us buy their products. If your going to design something thats structurally not strong enough to take normal wear and tear....
like for example if you wanted me to put a thin walled ivory ferrule on your cue. I would actually do that, up to a point. But there would be a warning or whatever, that normal guarantees dont apply, because that ferrule will most definately crack.....but maybe thats your favorite hit ya know.....so i could get on board with that but nothing more.
hope your well jayden....you need to come play with my wood some times brother
:thumbup:
lol-grey ghost
On can learn much from a visit & a discussion. That does NOT mean that both parties have to totally agree.
To me, Predator shafts are rather more flexible than OB shafts or even McDermott shafts.
Personally I like both my i2 & my OB Classic & OB pro shafts.
That does not mean that flexibility is not a worth while components.
If I wanted the least squirt shaft, I would consider the rather flexible Predator 314 CAT shaft that I have that has been 'juiced', sanded down, to 12 mm at the tip & less in an 'hour glass' shape at about 18" from the tip.
I can not play with that shaft on a 9' table because the ball crosses back across the line too often on long shots.
Just say'in.
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GG,
good info there.
The ply wood lamination method could produce lower squirt with the dot up if applying side english, and can be rotated 90 degrees for top and draw english with the same end mass.
The radial (pie) laminations will produce a more uniform structure from the same piece of wood 360 degrees.
My first Z2 cracked at the ferrule and the lamination split behind it after 5 years. I repaired it with a plastic sleeve and epoxy it performed the same as before. I saved on the repair and shipping costs.
Be well
good info there.
The ply wood lamination method could produce lower squirt with the dot up if applying side english, and can be rotated 90 degrees for top and draw english with the same end mass.
The radial (pie) laminations will produce a more uniform structure from the same piece of wood 360 degrees.
My first Z2 cracked at the ferrule and the lamination split behind it after 5 years. I repaired it with a plastic sleeve and epoxy it performed the same as before. I saved on the repair and shipping costs.
Be well
Are you talking about more swerve?
I have early OB2, i2 and Tiger shafts and had to sand the down to try to match my Z2 player that I still prefer.
I have been shooting with my old solid 11mm that is low deflection (mass) but it doesn't spin the CB as much as the Z2.
I always liked a thin shaft to aim with - less parallax for me. Back in the day, I even drew a black line down the front of the shaft to aim when I could see. I never used the side of the shaft to aim with like Shane.
Just me.
Be well
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Hi E,
Yes the 'juiced' 314 CAT squirts so little that on a long shot with any english that is not hit exactly on the equator, actually a hair above the equator since the cue is not level, the ball swerves across the line unless hit VERY very firmly.
I love it on smaller tables or in close quarters, but not on the long shots on 9 ' tables that I want to hit with any english.
I just can not make myself adjust properly for that.
You Stay Well.
I will be...
I'm working on a lot of things right now, so I don't know how long it will be.
I'm about to release my standard layered leather and jump break tips and I'm still working on overcoming some material/production issues on my other tips.
I'm working on a 3d printer design for my perfect grip device and of course my shafts.
I'm also a VP for a non profit called Freedom to Rock that puts on concerts to benefit troops and veterans and then I have my 8 to 5 job on top of that, and the Mezz West State Tour that I try to never miss, so I'm pretty busy...which is probably why I haven't made a cue in over a year...geez...
Jaden
I'm working on a lot of things right now, so I don't know how long it will be.
I'm about to release my standard layered leather and jump break tips and I'm still working on overcoming some material/production issues on my other tips.
I'm working on a 3d printer design for my perfect grip device and of course my shafts.
I'm also a VP for a non profit called Freedom to Rock that puts on concerts to benefit troops and veterans and then I have my 8 to 5 job on top of that, and the Mezz West State Tour that I try to never miss, so I'm pretty busy...which is probably why I haven't made a cue in over a year...geez...
Jaden
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That's one of my favorite pictures by the way. Love that old marquetry...
You big silly, of course they're not exactly the same, that's my point. The cue has since evolved and has reached its most efficient form, for the games we play and the equipment we play with. (form follows function) Tweek the cue how you see fit.
Which goes back to my original point, we are not "behind" in the development of our equipment. The pool world has always looked for better ways, and always does. You know where plastic came from right?
We make awesome cues. Awesome balls. Awesome cloth. Awesome chalk. Awesome cushions. Awesome tables. And awesome radio podcasts
lolLove the banter btw
yes which is basically the difference b/t mecuui black dot, pred, ad ob1.....
but i have to disagree completely from what ENGLISH says up top about how the old school meucci shafts were differient than regular shafts......taper...obviously. The wood? it was wood. He put a dot to mark the grain....thats it. Bob didn't invent anything in regards to that. Players before lassiter were known to do that. Just like colored ferrules. I could swear i heard before lassiter colored his red and maybe or maybe it was squirrel (marshall carpenter)??? like white ferrules today....black long long time ago....no ferrule...its not new
now what royce did.....yea that was new. Becuase harvey martin played around with flat and radial tech.
That's one of my favorite pictures by the way. Love that old marquetry...
You big silly, of course they're not exactly the same, that's my point. The cue has since evolved and has reached its most efficient form, for the games we play and the equipment we play with. (form follows function) Tweek the cue how you see fit.
Which goes back to my original point, we are not "behind" in the development of our equipment. The pool world has always looked for better ways, and always does. You know where plastic came from right?
We make awesome cues. Awesome balls. Awesome cloth. Awesome chalk. Awesome cushions. Awesome tables. And awesome radio podcasts
Love the banter btw
phenolic and celluloid.... technically. Leo Bakeland 1909 i think bakelite. i ***** nerds ears when i want to tell them something like their games and moves possiby may not exist or would/could be way diff based off a prize to develop a replacement material that was easily manufactrured in place of ivory....gets them all interested in pool lol
You only say that, because you haven't seen the next better thing.
And yet, you want us to stop looking for better cues because they have reached their most efficient form?
Thank you kindly.
Hi Keebe.
My point about the old Meucci Shafts, even well before the red dot, was that they were much more flexible than other shafts basically because of the taper.
Back in the old days the house cues had European/Conical tapers & most of the 2 pc. manufactured shafts had rather short 'Pro Tapers'.
Meucci was different with long tapers & yes wood is wood but not all wood is the same, not even all maple wood. Different pieces have different flex qualities.
I do not know but perhaps Mr. Meucci 'hand selected' the wood for more flex.
You Stay & Eat Well,
Rick
For big hands, some want 13 mm shafts.
For others, more flexibility..
How about both?:thumbup:
View attachment 412970
Be well
Interesting & that is sort of what Jaden's tips are like.
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It's a very simple concept sir. The form of the cue won't change because we don't need it to change. Who knows what the future holds, but as it is now, the cue has been mastered.
People will indeed keep trying new materials and designs. And that's peachy.
People will build cues with different properties. That's peachy as well.
I never said they shouldn't. I said they don't need to, because the games we play ( and equipment) don't require it. 'Better' is a relative term.
Maybe the industry will prove the evolution of sports implements wrong. That's cool too. I guess we'll see.
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ENGLISH et al,
After more than 14,000 hits and over 500 posts, who benefitted from this thread?
Those that have followed it from the beginning or those that jumped on it with a desire to get a consensus or resolution and quit?
I hope that Dr. Dave believes that all here have benefitted from Jal's challenging contributions and Cornerman's practical observations. I also know that Dr. Dave has more AZ students who have increased their knowledge over and above just feel.
In my engineering work, we are encouraged to think outside of the box which puts trust in intuition and not just paradigms. We all observe and have intuitions even though we may not have the pedigree of those that many seek for easy answers. Science and empirical studies start with an intuition that begs for proof that most don't have the capacity to provide.
This AZ forum provides a peer review for those intuitions that anyone can proffer by posting. One may get "stoned" for their thoughts as you know, but one has to be honest with what they observe and believe and even seek proof or quit.
This thread is an extension of an age old question to debunk the paradigm that the transverse force is an insignificant contributor to the effective end mass of the shaft that effects squirt.
What causes squirt is a complex combination of force vectors and resonance imparted to the CB for which no complete equation or algorithm has been presented to be embraced or debunked - who has the interest and resources?
With that said, one day we may have a perfect cue with the perfect end mass and flexibility to eliminate squirt - if that floats your boat.:smile:
Be well
After more than 14,000 hits and over 500 posts, who benefitted from this thread?
Those that have followed it from the beginning or those that jumped on it with a desire to get a consensus or resolution and quit?
I hope that Dr. Dave believes that all here have benefitted from Jal's challenging contributions and Cornerman's practical observations. I also know that Dr. Dave has more AZ students who have increased their knowledge over and above just feel.
In my engineering work, we are encouraged to think outside of the box which puts trust in intuition and not just paradigms. We all observe and have intuitions even though we may not have the pedigree of those that many seek for easy answers. Science and empirical studies start with an intuition that begs for proof that most don't have the capacity to provide.
This AZ forum provides a peer review for those intuitions that anyone can proffer by posting. One may get "stoned" for their thoughts as you know, but one has to be honest with what they observe and believe and even seek proof or quit.
This thread is an extension of an age old question to debunk the paradigm that the transverse force is an insignificant contributor to the effective end mass of the shaft that effects squirt.
What causes squirt is a complex combination of force vectors and resonance imparted to the CB for which no complete equation or algorithm has been presented to be embraced or debunked - who has the interest and resources?
With that said, one day we may have a perfect cue with the perfect end mass and flexibility to eliminate squirt - if that floats your boat.:smile:
Be well
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I hope it opened the minds of some to not only question & continue to question...
but to also question the answers.:wink:
I think it was a very good thread...
for the most part.:wink:
I think the definitive benefit was generating or bringing to the forefront the phrase "effective end mass" with the key word being effective & how it differentiates from just the phrase "end mass" that was so often use with no caveats.
You Be & Stay Well.