Squirt. End Mass and Cue Flexibility.

Corwyn_8 said:
Mr. Bond said:
What should a cue be able to do, that we cant make it do?
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How about a zero squirt cue (as a simple example)?
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Squirt (AKA, CB deflection) is actually a good thing, assuming the associated shaft natural pivot length it is well-match to the player's preferred bridge length. It provides automatic correction for unintentional stroke errors and allows for effective use of both stroke swoop and BHE aiming. For more info, see:

cue natural pivot length

low-deflection (LD) shaft disadvantages

Regards,
Dave
 
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Corwyn_8 said:
How about a zero squirt cue (as a simple example)?

But that isn't really the point; I don't know what a new cue might be able to do. The guys that played with maces, and sticks with no leather or chalk thought the same thing as you, until Mingaud came along. Suddenly english is a new possibility.

Why must their be an authority? Why would I want an authority? I live in a free country, not a dictatorship.

Thank you kindly
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If this was 1830, I wouldnt have the opinion I do, because I wouldnt have 200 years of expert cue making to look back on. Those people weren't idiots.

And for the record, Im not saying that nothing better could be made, I'm saying that nothing better really needs to be made. Cues are not golf clubs and do not need to perform nearly the feats that clubs do. This is probably why we don't have research firms by the score trying to reinvent the wheel. The cue's function has been fulfilled. Now its just a matter of tweeking it in such a way that each player gets what they want. Or in some cases, it's a matter of making them cheaper so more money can be made, but that of course is not automatically associated with 'better'.

A cue is just a straight line in the air that's easy to hold :smile:
 
Mr. Bond said:
If this was 1830, I wouldnt have the opinion I do, because I wouldnt have 200 years of expert cue making to look back on. Those people weren't idiots.
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Yes you would. They weren't idiots. They had 300 years of expert mace making to look back on (see below, left). They were just as confident about what they didn't know, as you are.

1800_Cues_Maces.jpg


Thank you kindly.

p.s. look at those 1800 cues.... Hall of Fame material, yes?
 
Corwyn_8 said:
Yes you would. They weren't idiots. They had 300 years of expert mace making to look back on (see below, left). They were just as confident about what they didn't know, as you are.

1800_Cues_Maces.jpg


Thank you kindly.

p.s. look at those 1800 cues.... Hall of Fame material, yes?
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The mace in the middle looks flexible.
 
Corwyn_8 said:
Yes you would. They weren't idiots. They had 300 years of expert mace making to look back on (see below, left). They were just as confident about what they didn't know, as you are.

Thank you kindly.

p.s. look at those 1800 cues.... Hall of Fame material, yes?
Click to expand...


Thank you for reinforcing my point.
Cue making and fine woodworking in general is not a new field. Not by a long shot.
So how is making a straight reliable stick so difficult that we have only now begun to unlock the secrets of a great playing cue?

It's not.

It was a stick then and its still just a stick now.
The only thing they needed to change is the contact points (not the stick), same as today, based on the game being played, style of play, the table and balls, and of course personal preference.

Like a ball, the cue stick IS the invention in its purest form, it cant be more than it is.
(And the current contact points will not change much unless we change the games we play, and what we play them with)
 
I dug out my 55 year old 2 piece house stick player that I sanded down to 11mm back then and shot for an hour. It's squirt was like my $275.00 Z2 that I shoot with now. Even with the old Elk Master tip, it hit solid.

It seemed not to yield as much english perhaps because it was stiffer than the Z2.

Cheap trick.:thumbup:

Be well

Ernesto and Oscar had their TAD shafts down to around 11mm years ago.
 
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still cant believe that pos sardo rack beat out this for product of the year.....was really the first improvement of the bridge design shifting from friction to an actual gliding base....worked pretty dam awesome too....well i guess at the time most didn't know how much of a piece of junk the sardo and such was/is.....at least in my opinion....having to set divots and such....insanity
 

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LAMas said:
How did they spin the CB?
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They didn't. That was my point. Spinning the cue ball didn't even enter the game until Mingaud added a leather tip to the cue. It never occurred to them that they would WANT to spin the cue ball.

Thank you kindly.
 
The red circle cue ball is vastly different compared to the Arimith Logo ball the Brunswick Centennial blue dot & circle cue balls?

Balls are not just balls as shafts are not just shafts.

Even the Meucci shafts of old were vastly different than the other regular maple shafts.

Then came Predator (after a visit to Mr. Meucci), with their LD shafts. Then othesr like OB came along.

Yes we can adapt & learn to play with what ever we have, but I would certainly not recommend to a beginner that they learn to play english with a regular maple shaft other than to first see whats going on. I would then recommend that they learn with an LD shaft where the mental adjustments to get the physical adjustments are much smaller.

How about a match where one uses an OB Pro shaft & another uses the first mace.

Believe me I think I understand the feelings. I think some are going through the same thing that many professional golfers went through when metal woods & cavity back irons came out.

Yes less forgiving equipment separated the better players by a wider margin but progress is an unstoppable 'adversary'.

Many old golfers stayed with the lesser forgiving equipment for a long time as they knew it & no one really LIKES change. But... when lesser players started beating them with the newer more forgiving equipment they pretty much had to make the change. Then when they did & got accustomed to their new metal wood, graphite shafts came out.

I watched Nick Faldo during a practice round try to carry a bunker on the inside of a dogleg hole at English Turn with a metal driver. He tried 3 times & failed every time. He then took out a wooden driver & flew it right over the bunker.

The metal wood was apparently more forgiving but something was amiss for distance with Nick Faldo.

He eventually found the right metal drive or had one designed, for him, & went to it.

All I know is that I've played rather well using what I term as parallel english for over 4 decades while using regular maple shafts & I never consciously used the natural pivot point of any shaft. I've always made the mental subconscious adjustments for the squirt even when I was never even aware of squirt.

I'm now playing with an OB Pro shaft that still requires some mental adjustment because it still squirts the ball but to a much lesser degree & my subconscious thanks me for it.

I'd like one that would have no squirt because that would make matters even more simple for my subconscious, so much so, that he might be able to take a nap while I am playing pool.

Progress is virtually unstoppable, even when we are happy with what we have.
 
greyghost said:
still cant believe that pos sardo rack beat out this for product of the year.....was really the first improvement of the bridge design shifting from friction to an actual gliding base....worked pretty dam awesome too....well i guess at the time most didn't know how much of a piece of junk the sardo and such was/is.....at least in my opinion....having to set divots and such....insanity
Click to expand...

Interesting invention, now if it had a position for draw....and if the ball bearings were as soft as flesh...:)

Be well.
 
Corwyn_8 said:
They didn't. That was my point. Spinning the cue ball didn't even enter the game until Mingaud added a leather tip to the cue. It never occurred to them that they would WANT to spin the cue ball. ...
Click to expand...

I think that moderate amounts of side were used before the leather tip. In fact chalk was used before tips, IIRC. I've played directly on wood and you can even get a little draw if you're close enough to the OB.
 
ENGLISH! said:
The red circle cue ball is vastly different compared to the Arimith Logo ball the Brunswick Centennial blue dot & circle cue balls?

Balls are not just balls as shafts are not just shafts.

Even the Meucci shafts of old were vastly different than the other regular maple shafts.

Then came Predator (after a visit to Mr. Meucci), with their LD shafts. Then othesr like OB came along.

Yes we can adapt & learn to play with what ever we have, but I would certainly not recommend to a beginner that they learn to play english with a regular maple shaft other than to first see whats going on. I would then recommend that they learn with an LD shaft where the mental adjustments to get the physical adjustments are much smaller.

How about a match where one uses an OB Pro shaft & another uses the first mace.

Believe me I think I understand the feelings. I think some are going through the same thing that many professional golfers went through when metal woods & cavity back irons came out.

Yes less forgiving equipment separated the better players by a wider margin but progress is an unstoppable 'adversary'.

Many old golfers stayed with the lesser forgiving equipment for a long time as they knew it & no one really LIKES change. But... when lesser players started beating them with the newer more forgiving equipment they pretty much had to make the change. Then when they did & got accustomed to their new metal wood, graphite shafts came out.

I watched Nick Faldo during a practice round try to carry a bunker on the inside of a dogleg hole at English Turn with a metal driver. He tried 3 times & failed every time. He then took out a wooden driver & flew it right over the bunker.

The metal wood was apparently more forgiving but something was amiss for distance with Nick Faldo.

He eventually found the right metal drive or had one designed, for him, & went to it.

All I know is that I've played rather well using what I term as parallel english for over 4 decades while using regular maple shafts & I never consciously used the natural pivot point of any shaft. I've always made the mental subconscious adjustments for the squirt even when I was never even aware of squirt.

I'm now playing with an OB Pro shaft that still requires some mental adjustment because it still squirts the ball but to a much lesser degree & my subconscious thanks me for it.

I'd like one that would have no squirt because that would make matters even more simple for my subconscious, so much so, that he might be able to take a nap while I am playing pool.

Progress is virtually unstoppable, even when we are happy with what we have.
Click to expand...
Predator visited Mr. Meucci ? You seam to infer they learned something from a visit? As I recall Bob hated Predator and their concepts. Bob still believe his shaft has less deflection than anything Predator Makes?

Cocoa
 
LAMas said:
Ernesto and Oscar had their TAD shafts down to around 11mm years ago.
Click to expand...

I was watching Ernesto at TS last year and noticed how ridiculously thin his shaft is, but I didn't think it was that (11mm) thin. He can play some pretty amazing pool with that toothpick, though.:cool:
 
Actually I believe Oscar's at one point was even smaller than that...

Sloppy Pockets said:
I was watching Ernesto at TS last year and noticed how ridiculously thin his shaft is, but I didn't think it was that (11mm) thin. He can play some pretty amazing pool with that toothpick, though.:cool:
Click to expand...

I think Oscar's was even smaller than that, somewhere in the 8.5-9mm range...

Mine is 11.22...but is also LD beyond just it's thinness...I designed a LD shaft by reducing endmass but designing it in a way to not reduce that solid shaft feel. I liked the benefits of LD shafts, but didn't like the hollow feel that most on the market provided, So I spent the better part of a decade designing mine.

Jaden
 
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