If you think there's a real difference, what's the physical cause?
Thanks,
pj
chgo
Thanks,
pj
chgo
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Squirt & Jumping
- Thread starter Patrick Johnson
- Start date
Harder I’d say. Since I can jump with my old Viking and haven’t gotten any air with my 314. It seems to me like a ld shaft would get out of the way and leave the Cueball somewhere else to go but up. That’s the mental image that first made jumping successful for me anyway...squeezing the QB between the tip and table
Depends on the construction of the cue. I imagine jumping with the carbon fiber cues could be easier than some earlier wooden style ld shafts? That being said, I can jump a full ball with a Predator Z2, which IMO is possibly the worst shaft ever made for that purpose except maybe the OB2? It's a good way to destroy it, though. I think the reason may be the shaft bending away, thus not transferring as much energy into the ball. Since the cue is elevated (and trapping the cueball), it may be possible to prolong the tip contact more than other shots? IDK, would be interesting to see a video. If you have a terrible shaft for jumping, a way to get more air, is to hit "less" of the cueball, putting more of a draw stroke on it thus not trapping the cueball under the tip. Jumping with a ld shaft, with follow on the ball, while maybe not impossible, is way outside my capabilities.
Jumping with a housecue is pretty trivial, in comparison with many ld shafts, which is also partially a result of the tips getting rock hard from bangers smashing the balls around. Lots of people have soft marshmellows on the end of their cues, which would make it tough to jump, even with a purpose built shaft. With a harder tip, you can jump with pretty much any shaft. It always seems to be easier with stiffer cues, though.
Jumping with a housecue is pretty trivial, in comparison with many ld shafts, which is also partially a result of the tips getting rock hard from bangers smashing the balls around. Lots of people have soft marshmellows on the end of their cues, which would make it tough to jump, even with a purpose built shaft. With a harder tip, you can jump with pretty much any shaft. It always seems to be easier with stiffer cues, though.
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Me too, but I know there's some differences of opinion about it. The poll's even right now (with only 4 votes).
Hmm... could be, I suppose. It feels to me like a loss of power, and maybe CF delivers it better?
Energy transfer sounds likely to me, but I'm skeptical about the bending part.
This is my experience too.
Sez you.
pj
chgo
I feel a great hitting playing has to give a little.
A jump cue, on the other hand, shouldn’t give much...therefore, the cue ball gives.
...in the 90s, they were even jumping with cue butts only, with special bumpers...
...thank heavens they were outlawed.
....shaft jumping was done also...the shaft has very little flex without the butt.
....a minimum length took are of that.
A jump cue, on the other hand, shouldn’t give much...therefore, the cue ball gives.
...in the 90s, they were even jumping with cue butts only, with special bumpers...
...thank heavens they were outlawed.
....shaft jumping was done also...the shaft has very little flex without the butt.
....a minimum length took are of that.
I remember shaft jumping - it made it easy, like jump cues do, at least for short distance jumps you could make with a dart stroke. I think the common ingredient there is lightness, but I can't see a connection to the low squirt effect.
pj
chgo
A butt with a useful bumper jumps very well....so lightness isn’t a factor, I feel.
....what gives a good playing cue a “kind hit” is not what a good jump cue needs....
....a brutal hit is best....in my experience.
Mind you, if I ruled the pool world, players would have to jump with their playing cue.
Not a strong factor with a butt, but it has that springy rubber bumper going for it.
Of the jump cues I’ve tried lighter is easier, and jump cues are always lighter and easier than playing cues. Not the only thing, but there seems to be a connection.
pj
chgo
Also, I do a limited comparison of various shafts at the 7:10 point in the following video:
NV J.12 – How to Select a Pool Cue, Cue Ball Deflection, Carbon Fiber, Revo vs. Cuetec
I’ll add this to the resource page tomorrow.
Enjoy,
Dabe
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The absolute easiest jumping cue is a full length regular butt, with a 12-13 inch shaft and 14mm phenolic ferrule.
If you have an old cue, or a warped shaft that you dont mind experimenting on, cut it down, put a phenolic 1 piece tip/ferrule on it, and turn/sand the taper to match up with the ferrule.
You can jump 65mm billiard balls like they are nothing. :wink:
You want the jump stick to stop as quickly and as much as possible when it hits the cue ball. Stopping keeps the cue tip from trapping the cue ball on the cloth. In theory, an ideal 6-ounce stick would stop completely and a hard tip cuts down the contact time.
I heard that Pat Fleming got around the length requirement with something like a balsa-wood butt.
As for low-squirt cues being poor jumpers, I wonder if that's because there is less weight in the front to get the get the cue ball going immediately. That would suggest that what you want is a steel ferrule that has most of the weight and a very light shaft/butt. But now that I look at the equipment specs, I see: "The ferrule of the cue stick, if of a metal material, may not be more than 1 inch [2.54 cm] in length." That suggests a 1/2-inch phenolic ferrule and a steel shaft going into a very light butt for the required total of 40 inches in length.
I heard that Pat Fleming got around the length requirement with something like a balsa-wood butt.
As for low-squirt cues being poor jumpers, I wonder if that's because there is less weight in the front to get the get the cue ball going immediately. That would suggest that what you want is a steel ferrule that has most of the weight and a very light shaft/butt. But now that I look at the equipment specs, I see: "The ferrule of the cue stick, if of a metal material, may not be more than 1 inch [2.54 cm] in length." That suggests a 1/2-inch phenolic ferrule and a steel shaft going into a very light butt for the required total of 40 inches in length.
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Metal ferrules is allready a thing, with many jump cues using one, others using thick shafts at 14mm and hard hitting and sometimes heavy and thick phenolic ferrules or ferrule/tip combos. I've tried ULTRA light jump cues made from thin tubes of aluminium or carbon, and though they can jump from very close to the object ball, they also do take a lot of speed to accomplish this feat. The extreme qualities they offer is offset by the pure difficulty of using them.
As far as ease of jumping I find a 7-8 ounce cue to be the best compromise. Any lighter than 7, and it starts to become more work to get the energy into the ball. Much heavier than 8-9 and it starts to become a chore to jump close.
My hypothesis is that a sort of Mezz cue type of shaft is the best idea. VERY stiff carbon core (for stiffness only) and a wooden exterior to keep the weight and diameter in the desired range. The carbon core could be connected directly to the ferrule or indeed be an extension of it. But better yet may be to have a metal ferrule. It helps to have a little weight at the end, I think, pure jumping concerns aside, more for accuracy and balance. I suppose maybe a massive carbon rod could work, but I'm not entirely sure what kind of diameter would be needed for that. Maybe it would be uncomfortably thin. I know of Dr. Popper have tried it extensively, and though it can jump close, I don't think I've met anyone that would say that this is the cue to get for all your jump shots?
In order to be consistent, and having control over your jumps, I feel a 13mm minimum tip is needed, and a little bigger is better. You need some weight to help you swing the cue at a comfortable speed. That's what I feel is "ease of jumping". All those extreme cues that are super light makes it easy to get over balls that are close but tough to be consistent in making balls or get accurate hits. Just IMO.
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Do you mean end mass, or more of the front? How does that affect a shot without sidespin? Does it reduce force for non-jump shots too?
pj
chgo
Why choose such an under performing cue to learn how to jump with? Of all production level jump cues, the Predator Air has to be the worst, and the Air II didn’t get much better. Jacoby is a much better jump cue for a dart style technique.
And PJ, the answer is simple. The CoR of a jump cue is much higher than the CoR of a LD shaft. It’s not the weight that causes the jump to occur. It’s not endmass. It’s not the taper. It’s all about the efficiency of the transfer of energy of the cue. Then the ability of the person to stroke that cue correctly to achieve such results. It’s why so many players are now getting break cues that are also excellent at jumping without breaking down.
The players ability to jump can be magnified with a proper jump cue, and can be destroyed with improper equipment. I’ve found the reason most table/room owners hate jumping so much is directly associated with the proliferation of jump cue production due to bandwagoning. Same thing we see with carbon filament shafts nowadays. There are proper ways to jump, and an LD shaft is not one. While doable, it’s not recommended.
Yeah, I speculated the same thing in an earlier post about whether low squirt CF cues jump better. But what about a low squirt cue makes energy transfer less efficient?
One thing I notice is that my cue and the early Predator I had before are both hollow at the tip, and both suck at jumping (couldn't be me!). Could that be a factor in energy transfer, independent from low squirt?
pj
chgo
I did a little experiment this morning to come up with the definitive answer. I used a modern Meucci with a black dot shaft, a 20 year old Viking with a maple shaft and a mop handle. All came out pretty equal. My standing vertical leap is about 3" no matter which one I'm holding - a little more if I swing my arms down while I raise my knees up, but then I wind up falling. Do you think it would help if I bought a dedicated jump cue? 
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Because it’s simple math/physics. A shaft without a hole in the end will not have multiple points where the shaft can flex. A LD, Predator style, shaft with a 6 inch hole will now have two points of flexing. At the end of the bore, and at its taper flex point. This is the focal point of the end mass idea into making a LD shaft. The tip is literally being forced around the curve of the ball creating a lower CoR. Thing of note, CoR is not measuring applied spin. Just the effect of an object colliding with an object. It’s not impossible to jump with an LD shaft, it’s just that their inherent design makes them quite a bit harder to jump with.