State Open Tournaments?

garczar said:
What's happened over the last 30odd yrs. is people woke up and got tired of being nothing but donators in open events. Looks to me like the 'sissies' of today are those players that refuse(or say they refuse) to play in a rated event because they no longer have the stone nuts going in. The mere thought they may have to play a lesser player with a hd'cap scares them off.
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A lot of those same players are still donating if it’s a capped event and not handicapped otherwise. If it’s a 600 and under and it’s an even race to say 5 someone with a 540 Fargo has no chance of winning if there is more than a few players in it. If it’s one of the bigger events there will be enough players around 600 that they don’t have a chance. They might beat one or even two but they can’t keep that up. People will pay to play even though they can’t win just because they know they don’t have to play the best players around.
 
9BallKY said:
A lot of those same players are still donating if it’s a capped event and not handicapped otherwise. If it’s a 600 and under and it’s an even race to say 5 someone with a 540 Fargo has no chance of winning if there is more than a few players in it. If it’s one of the bigger events there will be enough players around 600 that they don’t have a chance. They might beat one or even two but they can’t keep that up. People will pay to play even though they can’t win just because they know they don’t have to play the best players around.
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Agree to point. There will still more players in their range in a tournament like you describe. Sure, playing someone 60pts better makes them a 2-1 dog but not everyone they play will be a 600. These tournaments in my part of the country fill fast. Open events, if u can find one, don't. That being said Shooters in Olathe just had their big event and drew over 250 for an open bb tourn. They normally get about 128 and have them twice/yr but because of covid they haven't had one in 5yrs thus the huge turnout. This tournament is one of the few open events left in the area. It may have been the last as the TD is probably retiring and don't know if they have another.
 
I think unless you have all the money and will make all the rules (like IPT, now MR), it will be about impossible to get a tour going. Pool is every man for himself, extended to every room owner for himself, extended to every TD for himself. I’m not implying this is a negative. It’s just the nature of competition engrained in pool players. Good luck herding all of those cats.

The above was purely the management side. The below is the player side:

Open events from a player participation standpoint are hit or miss, for all the reasons already stated in this thread.

However, open events are the only way to prove who is best in the room/city/state/country/world. There is no question about that.

Me personally if I wanted to do start a multi state tour today, I’d tie into the MR satellite system. I think that’s the best chance to get exposure and participation.
 
Bob Jewett said:
100 times as many players in CA and NY as Vermont.

At least for the first time you have to have a competent TD at each event or you will have a number of disasters and those will poison your efforts. Room owners are mostly as stupid as stumps when it comes to running tournaments.

If anyone really wants to do this, they should talk to people who have run other qualifiers or the Texas Express people.

I'll guess that fewer than 15 states will participate the first year unless you do a great deal of promotion with a lot of travel and personal contact.

Sorry if this sounds negative but the first year has to be done right or it all goes down the drain.
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I just like the sound of state champ/ national champ.
Everyone likes a winner and rooting for a local.
Probably a logistical nightmare.
New York and CA have large population but does that correlate to top player population?
 
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The 2 most recent attempts at something similar were Ed Liddawi's National Billiard League which never really made it off the ground (for numerous reasons) and Joe Tucker's American rotation which lasted a little longer. Both of these guys have way more knowledge and experience than the OP. Both never had much of a chance.

Bob J. pointed out what's probably one the biggest hurdles. You'll have to rely on other people as organizers, TD's, etc. and a large number of them are pretty much guaranteed to let you down. That's not me being negative, it's a fact. Just ask Ed or Joe. There are long threads about both on here and I wonder if the OP has ever checked them out.

They both had pretty good ideas, especially Joe T. What he failed to realize is that the average player doesn't share his viewpoint of the game. He thought there's enough players out there that would buy into his claim that this would make them better players even though they'd have no chance of winning. Through his tireless work he managed to convince enough people to get it going but after awhile the players he needed to participate just quit once they realized they had no chance.
He was right, if they continued they would have got better, but unfortunately, only 1 out of 10 players is willing to spend time or money pursuing that goal. Hell, it might be 1 out of 20, or 50.

And it was relatively small money. $200.00 entry is a pipe dream. Even if you handicap it you have similar problems.
 
sparkle84 said:
The 2 most recent attempts at something similar were Ed Liddawi's National Billiard League which never really made it off the ground (for numerous reasons) and Joe Tucker's American rotation which lasted a little longer. Both of these guys have way more knowledge and experience than the OP. Both never had much of a chance.

Bob J. pointed out what's probably one the biggest hurdles. You'll have to rely on other people as organizers, TD's, etc. and a large number of them are pretty much guaranteed to let you down. That's not me being negative, it's a fact. Just ask Ed or Joe. There are long threads about both on here and I wonder if the OP has ever checked them out.

They both had pretty good ideas, especially Joe T. What he failed to realize is that the average player doesn't share his viewpoint of the game. He thought there's enough players out there that would buy into his claim that this would make them better players even though they'd have no chance of winning. Through his tireless work he managed to convince enough people to get it going but after awhile the players he needed to participate just quit once they realized they had no chance.
He was right, if they continued they would have got better, but unfortunately, only 1 out of 10 players is willing to spend time or money pursuing that goal. Hell, it might be 1 out of 20, or 50.

And it was relatively small money. $200.00 entry is a pipe dream. Even if you handicap it you have similar problems.
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You need a dictator to run it. We all know what happens when players try to organize. Herding cats is easy in comparison.
 
Maybe I’m missing something, but it seems obvious. Flight it like a golf tournament, with an open division at the top. This has worked great, in golf, for decades. Before fargo, it didn’t work for pool, but it would now.
 
BilliardsAbout said:
I've formed a group with friends, including investors, individuals willing to contribute cash for sponsor advertising, fellow teachers and exhibitors, and room owners. Our playing pros and other friends can get thousands of dollars in cues and equipment, to add to the mix.

The numbers look promising on my end, and I'm pleased they do on yours as well. Within our group, we're considering whether open events are still feasible and if we can secure advance sign-ups for regionals, not just at the door, to ensure their viability and substantial state prizes.
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I recommend to find out who the streamers are for the area you are talking about and asking them. In some cases, they may run tournaments also. If nothing else, they may know who can successfully run tournaments in the area.
 
Badpenguin said:
I recommend to find out who the streamers are for the area you are talking about and asking them. In some cases, they may run tournaments also. If nothing else, they may know who can successfully run tournaments in the area.
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No offense here but i don't know any streamers that also run the tournament. Not saying this doesn't happen but i've never seen it. The big guns like BigTruck/TVMike/POVPool know all the room/club owners and would be the one's to contact.
 
easy-e said:
Exactly right. I was told the Lucasi West Coast tour won't even be coming to the Phoenix area because they won't get enough participation. It's crazy to me that there are maybe 20-30 weekly tournaments in the area that have plenty of players, but the minute they have to play guys like Oscar, they're out. Tournaments like that are awesome experiences. I played every one of them I could find while I was coming up.
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Sadly your kind of heart , skill and likely bankroll make you a very rare bird.

I drove 10hrs alone to Derby City Classic twice just to experience it.

I had match with Johnny Morra in the middle of the floor under that open balcony that surrounds it. As I'm going along I could tell people were tuning into the match because I'm nobody. I shot a 6 ball in very thin to the side pocket and went 6 rails with the cueball, like a bow tie patern with perfect shape on the 8...the room kinda hushed a bit right after that. That shot got me to 7 to 7 and then I missed a 7 ball....never shot again.

In the second DCC I had Neils Fiejen 3 to 1....he woke up and got 3 of the biggest rolls that I ever saw. He beat me like 9 to 5. I did a buyback and lost to a very good European player who also rolled very well. That's pool.
 
garczar said:
No offense here but i don't know any streamers that also run the tournament. Not saying this doesn't happen but i've never seen it. The big guns like BigTruck/TVMike/POVPool know all the room/club owners and would be the one's to contact.
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I believe Ray Hansen (BigTruck) does, somewhat.
 
All,

I believe the logical approach is to offer rated tournaments and clearly state "No pros," for any amateur invitational, since professionals have ratings.

While sandbagging can still occur, we'll do our utmost to prevent it.

Can I ask the group another question? Imagine you're attending a $1,000-added local tournament with a Fargo rating cap of 620 and below. All entry fees go into the cash prizes, except for a $25 admin fee to cover table time, website, flyers, etc. For a 64-player tournament with a $125 entry fee, the total payout would be $7,400.

What entry fee works best for you? $75, $125 as above towards $7400 total, $225 entry fee, or another amount?
 
BilliardsAbout said:
All,

I believe the logical approach is to offer rated tournaments and clearly state "No pros," for any amateur invitational, since professionals have ratings.

While sandbagging can still occur, we'll do our utmost to prevent it.

Can I ask the group another question? Imagine you're attending a $1,000-added local tournament with a Fargo rating cap of 620 and below. All entry fees go into the cash prizes, except for a $25 admin fee to cover table time, website, flyers, etc. For a 64-player tournament with a $125 entry fee, the total payout would be $7,400.

What entry fee works best for you? $75, $125 as above towards $7400 total, $225 entry fee, or another amount?
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Same age-old question pops up: HOW do you define a "PRO"?? I know guys that are under 650 that make most of their living $$ playing pool so are they 'PRO'?? If doing rated you either have to OPEN TO ALL or cap it. simple as that. As far as entry fees go i'd say 200MAX preferrably less. That being said some of these big FR split field events are getting 500-1000buck fee's.
 
BilliardsAbout said:
All,

I believe the logical approach is to offer rated tournaments and clearly state "No pros," for any amateur invitational, since professionals have ratings.

While sandbagging can still occur, we'll do our utmost to prevent it.

Can I ask the group another question? Imagine you're attending a $1,000-added local tournament with a Fargo rating cap of 620 and below. All entry fees go into the cash prizes, except for a $25 admin fee to cover table time, website, flyers, etc. For a 64-player tournament with a $125 entry fee, the total payout would be $7,400.

What entry fee works best for you? $75, $125 as above towards $7400 total, $225 entry fee, or another amount?
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The highlighted does not exist. Unless you can come up with a way to convince 40-50 players to put up $125 plus spend another $50-$75 for gas, food, drink, etc. when there's no chance of any reward, you are dead in the water.
 
sparkle84 said:
The highlighted does not exist. Unless you can come up with a way to convince 40-50 players to put up $125 plus spend another $50-$75 for gas, food, drink, etc. when there's no chance of any reward, you are dead in the water.
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Sounds like you've never been to Vegas for bca,apa,CSI, tap, Acs national tournament. Those idiots show up in droves to make nothing.
 
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