Straight In Shots

[Pidge]

Ok good boys! am i kinda right in what i said above??

No, advocating any form of "band aid" for a person with bad cueing action is completely wrong in my eyes. My take on the matter is this - fix the route cause of the bad cueing action then you are free to use what ever "system" you see fit.

 

[The Renfro]

So then there's no effect from the TOI other than the path of the CB? Trying to remember.. didn't he also suggest that a firm hit be used? From what I recall of watching one of videos, most shots were hit kinda firm, which would definitely not be letting the spin(or no spin, as some say) wear off.

Heaven help me if I hear a single person around me talk about this "system", because I'm going to kick them square in the nuts.

Hahah to me it feels more like I am hitting a knuckle ball where the only real rotation is away from the contact... Doesn't feel like I am spinning the ball much but I need to video it to see just how much rotation occurs.. It's more of a bump stroke to me.. And glad I am not close enough to get kicked LOL

 

[His Boy Elroy]

I define "english" as spin, or side spin. A player will create that by hitting the cue ball off center, however, I wouldn't say that "hitting the cue ball off center" IS english. The reason there's a difference in my mind is "english" can also be created by a ball colliding with a cushion or another ball.

One is what it's called, the other is how it's applied.....I personally wouldn't consider them the same thing, and to each their own.

The Touch of Inside does spin (english) the cue ball slightly, however, the angle of the cue is the key......when someone uses TOI for the suggested 3 straight hours and calibrates their shots to the center of the pocket they will notice that their cue is angled very, very slightly towards the "contact point" of the object ball.

To spin the cue ball more with "inside english" requires a slightly different angle on the cue......it's because of this factor that the more precise someone's stroke becomes the LESS TOI will be needed to get the desired effect.

This is true because of the mechanical aspect of the player's stroke AND ALSO because the advanced player will be using the edge of their tip as opposed to the center......this creates what I call "The Pinning Effect" which has a distinct sound (higher pitched) and creates more response {from the cue ball} when applying "english". 'The Game is the Teacher'


I criticized you a while back for what I perceived to be confusing semantics revolving around your use of the word "english." My intention was two - fold: To get your detractors off your back on the T.O.I. threads,
( they tend to harp on the matter) and get the discussions back in the right direction; and to try and get you to real eyes how the possible confusion might be turning away potential T. O. I newbies.

Please don't be offended. I'm highly critical of myself. Every time a new homeowner arrives on the block the first thing they're told is not to be alarmed when at 4:00 A.M they hear someone shrieking at the top of his lungs, "YOU #¥£€#% MORON! ANY HALF BLIND, STOOP SHOUDERED, ARTHRYTIC, 104 YEAR OLD COULD'VE MADE THAT SHOT SHOOTING BEHIND HIS BACK USING HIS #€¥£%#%¥#
CANE!"

I'm still a bit confused about your explanation above. Other posters are obviously confused also. You might want to go back to the drawing board on this issue.

 

[naji]

Hahah to me it feels more like I am hitting a knuckle ball where the only real rotation is away from the contact... Doesn't feel like I am spinning the ball much but I need to video it to see just how much rotation occurs.. It's more of a bump stroke to me.. And glad I am not close enough to get kicked LOL

Why video it, just hit whitey straight to the upper rail perpendicular, and watch where it goes, when it comes back straight to your tip, check chalk marks on CB, use Boyes chalk it sticks!

 

[His Boy Elroy]

Good for you! Keep it going and you can put out a DVD so the rest of us mere mortals can figure it out. :grin-square:

Best,
Mike

I'll tell you what! After making a post like that it's only right that I should back it up by posting a video. I don't know if I will. I'm a bit bashul. But if I don't do it I'll never make another post in this forum. So my next post will be a video or there won't be a next post.

 

[The Renfro]

Why video it, just hit whitey straight to the upper rail perpendicular, and watch where it goes, when it comes back straight to your tip, check chalk marks on CB, use Boyes chalk it sticks!

The ball will rebound left or right off the end rail but only slightly... I do that drill up to 4 rails of speed and know the effects of missing my mark.. I just don't know the rpms we are talking about and the rpms will be significant in the grade of english... Think about a sharp breaking curve vs a hanging curve.. Both have spin but only one of the 2 has enough spin (rpms) to bite.... Same thing here except the spin is grabbing the cloth so how much is required before the ball starts to swerve back... That will be speed dependent as well as rpm dependent but people want to argue semantics while I would like to argue effectiveness... A ball with spin may always be considered to have english but the amount is the key here.. Not the words....

Chris

 

[naji]

The ball will rebound left or right off the end rail but only slightly... I do that drill up to 4 rails of speed and know the effects of missing my mark.. I just don't know the rpms we are talking about and the rpms will be significant in the grade of english... Think about a sharp breaking curve vs a hanging curve.. Both have spin but only one of the 2 has enough spin (rpms) to bite.... Same thing here except the spin is grabbing the cloth so how much is required before the ball starts to swerve back... That will be speed dependent as well as rpm dependent but people want to argue semantics while I would like to argue effectiveness... A ball with spin may always be considered to have english but the amount is the key here.. Not the words....

Chris

Thanks Chris, i agree with you, the spin is definitely there if the CB is hit side ways even if it is hit 100% at center it varies if hard tip, soft tip, HD, LD..etc, i also started to think, that those that say you have to drive the CB through an OB for less throw are actually putting english on CB without knowing it, causing OB not to throw, or actually put english on CB to cause a cut bank to take and spin into pocket. Just saying, good post. Thanks.

 

[dr_dave]

I'm not sure how you define "english," but the standard definition is: "sidespin." Yes, when you hit the CB off center, even a small amount, the CB will have sidespin off the tip. Now, as the CB travels down the table, the sidespin is lost gradually (with the rate depending on shot speed and cloth conditions). Also, when the CB hits an OB at an angle, the CB will pick up a small amount of outside spin (based on how much the OB throws) or have any inside spin reduced (or converted to outside if the amount of inside spin is small enough). Therefore, whether or not a CB has sidespin when it hits a rail depends on how much spin there is to begin with, the spin's direction compared to the cut, the speed of the shot, the distance traveled before hitting a rail, and cloth conditions.

But again, "english" is "sidespin," and hitting the CB off center (even a small amount or "touch") creates sidespin (AKA "english").

Now, to get a reaction off a cushion (i.e., a change in rebound angle), the CB must have sidespin when it reaches the cushion.

Regards,
Dave

So basically a touch of inside if there is any distance between the object ball and the cue ball may result in no english at contact or so little that the collision induced english will wipe out whatever little was left on it....

It depends on how much a "touch" is. It also depends on the CB-OB distance, shot speed, and cloth conditions. It also depends on all of the things that throw depends on, because cut-induced spin is directly related to throw.

If the "touch" is just right, the CB will leave the OB with no sidespin whatsoever. If the "touch" is too small, the CB will pick up outside spin from the OB. And if the "touch" is too large, the CB will leave the OB with lesser inside spin.

Regards,
Dave

 

[CJ Wiley]

just a suggestion, always looking for ways to help out a fellow player.

It sounds like you need to work on the touch aspect of your game. This often is the case when someone tries to master the game consciously, which seldom gets appealing results.....there is a solution though, it just takes "thinking outside the box".

Maybe you should try playing for 3 hours using "reverse english" until this tendency balances out..or even try playing "opposite handed" to engage your "right brain" into action....just a suggestion, always looking for ways to help out a fellow player.

'The Game is our Teacher'

It depends on how much a "touch" is. It also depends on the CB-OB distance, shot speed, and cloth conditions. It also depends on all of the things that throw depends on, because cut-induced spin is directly related to throw.

If the "touch" is just right, the CB will leave the OB with no sidespin whatsoever. If the "touch" is too small, the CB will pick up outside spin from the OB. And if the "touch" is too large, the CB will leave the OB with lesser inside spin.

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

I'm not sure how you define "english," but the standard definition is: "sidespin." Yes, when you hit the CB off center, even a small amount, the CB will have sidespin off the tip. Now, as the CB travels down the table, the sidespin is lost gradually (with the rate depending on shot speed and cloth conditions). Also, when the CB hits an OB at an angle, the CB will pick up a small amount of outside spin (based on how much the OB throws) or have any inside spin reduced (or converted to outside if the amount of inside spin is small enough). Therefore, whether or not a CB has sidespin when it hits a rail depends on how much spin there is to begin with, the spin's direction compared to the cut, the speed of the shot, the distance traveled before hitting a rail, and cloth conditions.

But again, "english" is "sidespin," and hitting the CB off center (even a small amount or "touch") creates sidespin (AKA "english").

Now, to get a reaction off a cushion (i.e., a change in rebound angle), the CB must have sidespin when it reaches the cushion.

Best Regards,
Dave

So basically a touch of inside if there is any distance between the object ball and the cue ball may result in no english at contact or so little that the collision induced english will wipe out whatever little was left on it....

It depends on how much a "touch" is. It also depends on the CB-OB distance, shot speed, and cloth conditions. It also depends on all of the things that throw depends on, because cut-induced spin is directly related to throw.

If the "touch" is just right, the CB will leave the OB with no sidespin whatsoever. If the "touch" is too small, the CB will pick up outside spin from the OB. And if the "touch" is too large, the CB will leave the OB with lesser inside spin.

Regards,
Dave

It sounds like you need to work on the touch aspect of your game. This often is the case when someone tries to master the game consciously, which seldom gets appealing results.....there is a solution though, it just takes "thinking outside the box".

Maybe you should try playing for 3 hours using "reverse english" until this tendency balances out..or even try playing "opposite handed" to engage your "right brain" into action....just a suggestion, always looking for ways to help out a fellow player.

'The Game is our Teacher'

CJ,

You must have misunderstood the original question and/or my reply. I wasn't saying that I have trouble judging different amounts of inside english (or outside english) required on different types of shots. I actually feel fairly comfortable with this at the table. I also feel that my solid understanding of the effects ("left brain") actually helps in this regard, as long as I do all of my thinking and aiming while standing, before getting down for the shot. Once I'm ready for the stroke, I try to completely turn off the "left brain" and focus only on accurate stroke execution (probably guided mostly by the "right brain").

I was just trying to provide an accurate answer to a simple question: Will the CB come off the OB with no sidespin if a "touch" of inside english is used? The short answer is: Maybe (if you have accurately judged the exact amount of inside required, based on the specific shot at hand). The long answer is quoted above.

Does one need to understand all of this stuff to play well at the table? No, but I think understanding can sometimes help and speed up the learning process for some (if not most) people, especially those people not willing or able to put in that "10,000 hours" of practice. For more info, see:

physics "understanding" sometimes provides useful insight
knowledge can be useful, but you still need skill
improving your game

Intelligent Practice, Solid Understanding, and Successful Experience are the Teachers.

Regards,
Dave

 

[CJ Wiley]

Seems impossible, even for a "doctor"

Is it possible to "completely turn off your left brain"? Seems impossible, even for a "doctor".

CJ,

You must have misunderstood the original question and/or my reply. I wasn't saying that I have trouble judging different amounts of inside english (or outside english) required on different types of shots. I actually feel fairly comfortable with this at the table. I also feel that my solid understanding of the effects ("left brain") actually helps in this regard, as long as I do all of my thinking and aiming while standing, before getting down for the shot. Once I'm ready for the stroke, I try to completely turn off the "left brain" and focus only on accurate stroke execution (probably guided mostly by the "right brain").

 

[gmillioni]

straight shot difficulty

its all in the vector. take a piece of blank paper and pencil. lay the paper landscape wise flat on a table. with your pen or pencil set on the paper at any corner of the paper quickly, not slowly, draw a straight line to the opposite farthest corner. for the most part you missed the corner exactly. take that thought and look at a cue ball aiming at an object ball, any distance off center line is going to create an off center vector line which will cause you to miss the corner - opposite side of the paper. it truly is about a straight line (stroke) hit from cue ball to object ball to pocket. not to mention if you apply any spin to the cue ball it will change its path from straight to curvature, thus by the time it reaches the object ball you have probably missed the shot. im not saying you cant apply spin to a straight in shot; rather im saying when the spin is there when you didnt compensate for it or even want it then it may cause you to miss. distances between the cue ball and object ball also come to bear, as does distance of object ball to corner pocket.

a straight shot drill: line up all 15 balls across the table from side pocket to side pocket. there will be about 1/2 inch btween balls. using cue in hand anywhre you want with in the kitchen, line up each shot straight to the left corner. shoot seven or so to it then change to the right corner making the remaining seven or eight. id like to know how you did. by the way cue cannot touch any other ball or a rail. this is sooo easy its only for beginners, lol. should you be able to do it repeatedly then bravo. you have a handle on straight shots with no or minimal english, with good cue control. what more could you ask. gerald

 

[naji]

its all in the vector. take a piece of blank paper and pencil. lay the paper landscape wise flat on a table. with your pen or pencil set on the paper at any corner of the paper quickly, not slowly, draw a straight line to the opposite farthest corner. for the most part you missed the corner exactly. take that thought and look at a cue ball aiming at an object ball, any distance off center line is going to create an off center vector line which will cause you to miss the corner - opposite side of the paper. it truly is about a straight line (stroke) hit from cue ball to object ball to pocket. not to mention if you apply any spin to the cue ball it will change its path from straight to curvature, thus by the time it reaches the object ball you have probably missed the shot. im not saying you cant apply spin to a straight in shot; rather im saying when the spin is there when you didnt compensate for it or even want it then it may cause you to miss. distances between the cue ball and object ball also come to bear, as does distance of object ball to corner pocket.

a straight shot drill: line up all 15 balls across the table from side pocket to side pocket. there will be about 1/2 inch btween balls. using cue in hand anywhre you want with in the kitchen, line up each shot straight to the left corner. shoot seven or so to it then change to the right corner making the remaining seven or eight. id like to know how you did. by the way cue cannot touch any other ball or a rail. this is sooo easy its only for beginners, lol. should you be able to do it repeatedly then bravo. you have a handle on straight shots with no or minimal english, with good cue control. what more could you ask. gerald

hand, brain, and many of the body parts and functions work perfectly and in sync with each other during practice and at relaxed and under no pressure to perform situations.

During matches, or money game, or pressure situations (anxious to get a shot, tired of waiting, to much ball cleaning) causes some signals in the brain to divert from its demanded / pretended status, hands swing goes to default (if it is straight always) you are in luck; if you force it to be straight, then forget it, you are going to steer, and put inadvertent english on those long / key shots, your thinking, also get disturbed.. wrong shots and bad position.
A player must know his default play status, when it occurs and correct accordingly.

 

[Petros Andrikop]

Seems like a "straight in" subject has almost gone into the fields of the theory of relativity..
I wonder what the old timers would have to say about this, and they could make straight in shots as well..
Just joking, great info posted in this thread, have a good day everybody.
Petros

 

[John Brumback]

And some of the best players I have ever seen, had a crooked stroke. Thing is..they learned how to use it. Moral of this strory.....you do not have to have a perfect straight stroke to play championship caliber pool.Or to make long straight in shots either John B.

 

[DTL]

......................

 

[John Brumback]

Very true. Many have practice strokes all over the place (Exp: Nick Varner). The only one that counts though is the last forward stroke through the CB and if could isolate that one you'd probably find that it's pretty straight.

Maybe,but I wouldn't bet on it John B.

 

[Pidge]

Very true. Many have practice strokes all over the place (Exp: Nick Varner). The only one that counts though is the last forward stroke through the CB and if could isolate that one you'd probably find that it's pretty straight.

I agree. To become a championship standard player you need a couple of things. One that stands out is cue ball control. How do you gain cue ball control? Hitting where you intend. If a players stroke was so crooked, they wouldn't know how the cue ball was going to come off the tip, how it would react with balls and cushions and so on. So although some players have wonky looking strokes, they drive the tip through the intended position on the cue ball, along the intended line making the cue ball go along an intended path. Throughout the entire stroke only right before and during contact is what counts. If that crucial part travels along the intended line then you're onto a winner. There is more than one way to skin a cat, but I believe trying to get the entire stroke process as straight as you can will best serve the majority of players.

 

[Neil]

I agree. To become a championship standard player you need a couple of things. One that stands out is cue ball control. How do you gain cue ball control? Hitting where you intend. If a players stroke was so crooked, they wouldn't know how the cue ball was going to come off the tip, how it would react with balls and cushions and so on. So although some players have wonky looking strokes, they drive the tip through the intended position on the cue ball, along the intended line making the cue ball go along an intended path. Throughout the entire stroke only right before and during contact is what counts. If that crucial part travels along the intended line then you're onto a winner. There is more than one way to skin a cat, but I believe trying to get the entire stroke process as straight as you can will best serve the majority of players.

Exactly right. It's very easy to say that many pros don't have a straight stroke, so it's not that important to have a straight stroke and they copy the pros in that regard. What they miss, is the little fact that the pros that don't have a straight stroke have the mental connections to be able to do that. (what many call natural talent). If you don't already have that ability, it will take you years to develop it, if you ever do develop it. That is why it is so important for so many to learn to stroke straight. It takes years off the time it takes to learn to hit the cb where you want to and down the line you want to.

 

[naji]

And some of the best players I have ever seen, had a crooked stroke. Thing is..they learned how to use it. Moral of this strory.....you do not have to have a perfect straight stroke to play championship caliber pool.Or to make long straight in shots either John B.

It sounds like you are agreeing with me but reserved!