Stroke question

[ps611846]

be our guest and teach...the boards always open. if it were not people like myself would not be here....the pool illuminati has imagined is not real

Can you answer one question pls ?

Do you know why Efren Reyes and Francisco Bustamante play with this kind of "elbow aligment" ? With their elbow tucked in ? Do you know what they do with their wrist ?

What do you think ? Bad alignment ? Problem with fundamentals ? Bad habbits created when they started playing ?

The way they hit the cue ball is not what you think is the right way to do it. It is not the way you teach pool. It has nothing to do with "cue alignment" you always mention.

They just have a different game, and I am not sure you understand what they are doing. I know some things about this style because I play this way. Of course nowhere near their level.

 

[Neil]

Can you answer one question pls ?

Do you know why Efren Reyes and Francisco Bustamante play with this kind of "elbow aligment" ? With their elbow tucked in ? Do you know what they do with their wrist ?

What do you think ? Bad alignment ? Problem with fundamentals ? Bad habbits created when they started playing ?

The way they hit the cue ball is not what you think is the right way to do it. It is not the way you teach pool. It has nothing to do with "cue alignment" you always mention.

They just have a different game, and I am not sure you understand what they are doing. I know some things about this style because I play this way. Of course nowhere near their level.

Actually, we do know why. But, you keep trying to copy someone that you aren't. See how far it gets you. Especially when you only have some parts of the puzzle, as you stated. No one is forcing you to get better. No one is forcing you to play a certain way.

Instructors are there to help others play better. If you think you know more than those that have really studied the game, then don't go to them. Do things your own way. But to think that you actually know more than instructors just because you watched a few videos of Busy and Efren, well, that is just ludicrous. But, feel free to keep thinking that way if you want to.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Can you answer one question pls ?

Do you know why Efren Reyes and Francisco Bustamante play with this kind of "elbow aligment" ? With their elbow tucked in ? Do you know what they do with their wrist ?

What do you think ? Bad alignment ? Problem with fundamentals ? Bad habbits created when they started playing ?

The way they hit the cue ball is not what you think is the right way to do it. It is not the way you teach pool. It has nothing to do with "cue alignment" you always mention.

They just have a different game, and I am not sure you understand what they are doing. I know some things about this style because I play this way. Of course nowhere near their level.

Good Morning,

I might say that you were wasting your time if I thought you were only speaking to him.

At one time I thought he might be a bit different, but then found him to be just another player on the same band wagon.

ALL Best Wishes for YOU & YOURS,
Rick

PS I complimented the wisdom of that other guy that we both like. I'd say your wisdom too is what makes you a valuable member even more than your knowledge.

 

[Tony_in_MD]

It's magic you know, never believe it's not so.......

"High quality fundamentals beats all of the high quality concepts and esoteric executions ever created." -- Bert Kinister

And what makes you think that I would come to you for lessons ??? My game has nothing to do with what you and your friends teach.

I play with an "alive" cue ball. You play with a "dead" one. I dont like dead cue ball. It makes players suffer.

You know, Efren, Francisco, U.S players from the past (I have mentioned some of them in the past).... All of them played this way. Giving life to the cue ball in order to control it. Your teachings keep the cue ball "sleeping" and it doesn't react very well after contact with the object ball.

But, with your LD shaft...... you can do some things to control the cue ball..... Like applying sidespin with a straight stroke (OMG.........).......And not more than half a tip off center (OMG again.....). Might not work well all the time, but it is better than standard maple (LMAO.......).


Sure, you will never understand what I am talking about.

So, keep doing your job and I will do mine.

 

[ps611846]

Actually, we do know why. But, you keep trying to copy someone that you aren't. See how far it gets you. Especially when you only have some parts of the puzzle, as you stated. No one is forcing you to get better. No one is forcing you to play a certain way.

Instructors are there to help others play better. If you think you know more than those that have really studied the game, then don't go to them. Do things your own way. But to think that you actually know more than instructors just because you watched a few videos of Busy and Efren, well, that is just ludicrous. But, feel free to keep thinking that way if you want to.

I don't learn by watching a few videos. I have spent thousands of hours practicing. I don't own a pool table. I have spent so much money, I could have opened my own pool room.

Don't be so sure you know me that well.

The videos you have posted show the level of your knowledge. You try to explain cte, 90/90, etc... My experience at the table tells me that you do all these things by feel. No knowledge there.

Do you know the purpose of the pivots Francisco performs ? Why don't you tell me, if you think I only have some parts of the puzzle and you have the whole package ???????? Tell me what is the purpose of the pivot. I bet you don't know what this kind of pivoting is used for.

P.S. I know you don't know what Efren and Django do with their elbow and wrist. Actually, I am 100% sure.

 

[Neil]

I don't learn by watching a few videos. I have spent thousands of hours practicing. I don't own a pool table. I have spent so much money, I could have opened my own pool room.

Don't be so sure you know me that well.

The videos you have posted show the level of your knowledge. You try to explain cte, 90/90, etc... My experience at the table tells me that you do all these things by feel. No knowledge there.

Do you know the purpose of the pivots Francisco performs ? Why don't you tell me, if you think I only have some parts of the puzzle and you have the whole package ???????? Tell me what is the purpose of the pivot. I bet you don't know what this kind of pivoting is used for.

P.S. I know you don't know what Efren and Django do with their elbow and wrist. Actually, I am 100% sure.

A little while ago you said you would never go to me for instruction, yet now you are asking me questions you don't know the answers to. Good luck with that.

 

[ps611846]

A little while ago you said you would never go to me for instruction, yet now you are asking me questions you don't know the answers to. Good luck with that.

It is YOU who doesn't know the answers to my questions !!!!!!!

I know 100% what I am talking about and what I am doing.

Nice "move" sir !!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[ENGLISH!]

A little while ago you said you would never go to me for instruction, yet now you are asking me questions you don't know the answers to. Good luck with that.

There may be only one other that has mastered deception & diversion & avoidance etc. better than you.

 

[Straightpool_99]

It's magic you know, never believe it's not so.......

"High quality fundamentals beats all of the high quality concepts and esoteric executions ever created." -- Bert Kinister

I agree with Bert Kinister. I'm not sure I agree with you about what good fundamentals are, though. 99% of top players drop their elbow, there has to be good reason for this. Not only do they do that on hard shots, but on some soft shots as well. Most top players shoot follow shots with their tip finishing slightly up compared to tip contact, not digging down as a pendulum motion would have you do.That shouldn't be even a bit controversial to say, even if it is on this forum.

A lot of people say that Efren has a "wonky" or "weird" stroke. I disagree. I think his stroke is a very beautiful and effective one, and it's not that complicated to try this stroke either. The key is to let the cue go. The cue is an inanimate object, once set in motion it goes straigth unless forces act upon it. Why even try to micro-manage it? Let the cues straight motion guide your stroke, instead of the other way around. Just imagine you are "throwing" the cue through the ball with a loose grip. The rest will take care of itself if you are reasonably well lined up. If you watch an Efren video you will see his fingers come off the cue almost completely on delivery. When you "throw" the cue this way, it wants to go straight and it's very hard to screw that up. The cue delivery on a center ball shot is straight and level, which is what we all want. That is not to say that you can't work on alignment with this stroke, but it is completely different from what is being commonly taught, yet it is brutally effective and relatively easy to learn.

When you start freezing your joints in place, rigidly guiding the cue, that's when you are in serious danger of messing up. Combining that with digging the tip into the cloth on shots etc is not the way to go, which is why so few people are doing it.

The PBIA or whomever teaches a pendulum stroke may help a lot of people that way, but please don't pretend that everyone who doesn't do this is an ignorant yokel who doesn't know any better.

 

[Tony_in_MD]

I don't have a problem with an elbow drop, or any unorthodox stroke. I love the way philipino's stroke the ball. I also like Buddy halls stroke (which I tried to emulate a long time ago. I even see wonder in Allan Hopkins punch stroke.

That is style, and if balls are going in the hole, and position is made, who am I to comment on it.

It is those people I work with that their cue actions are causing them to miss, well there is an old saying. Continueing to do the same things over and over and expecting different results is a sign of insanity.

I use a checklist and rate the player when I watch them, we then review it together to determine what it is that they want to address.

Sorry you think I am so rigid in my beliefs.

edit: one part that I am very rigid on is the outright dismissal (by some) of various concepts and technics when they haven't even brought it to the table. There are some posters that act like they can come up with the answers doing a thought experiment. Reminds me of solving proofs in Geometry class.

For example I am very old-school in terms of aiming, but I don't have anything bad to say about CTE nor players that use it. I don;'t care if some don't think it is objective enough, and I rarely comment on anything that I have not personally worked on

Rant over.

I agree with Bert Kinister. I'm not sure I agree with you about what good fundamentals are, though. 99% of top players drop their elbow, there has to be good reason for this. Not only on hard shots, soft shots as well. Most top players shoot follow shots with their tip finishing slightly up compared to tip contact, not digging down as a pendulum motion would have you do.That shouldn't be even a bit controversial to say, even if it is on this forum.

A lot of people say that Efren has a "wonky" or "weird" stroke. I disagree. I think his stroke is a very beautiful and effective one, and it's not that complicated to try this stroke either. The key is to let the cue go. The cue is an inanimate object, once set in motion it goes straigth unless forces act upon it. Why even try to micro-manage it? Let the cues straight motion guide your stroke, instead of the other way around. Just imagine you are "throwing" the cue through the ball with a loose grip. The rest will take care of itself if you are reasonably well lined up. If you watch an Efren video you will see his fingers come off the cue almost completely on delivery. When you "throw" the cue this way, it wants to go straight and it's very hard to screw that up. The cue delivery on a center ball shot is straight and level, which is what we all want. That is not to say that you can't work on alignment with this stroke, but it is completely different from what is being commonly taught, yet it is brutally effective and relatively easy to learn.

When you start freezing your joints in place, rigidly guiding the cue, that's when you are in serious danger of messing up. Combining that with digging the tip into the cloth on shots etc is not the way to go, which is why so few people are doing it.

The PBIA or whomever teaches a pendulum stroke may help a lot of people that way, but please don't pretend that everyone who doesn't do this is an ignorant yokel who doesn't know any better.

 

[Straightpool_99]

I don't have a problem with an elbow drop, or any unorthodox stroke. I love the way philipino's stroke the ball. I also like Buddy halls stroke (which I tried to emulate a long time ago. I even see wonder in Allan Hopkins punch stroke.

That is style, and if balls are going in the hole, and position is made, who am I to comment on it.

It is those people I work with that their cue actions are causing them to miss, well there is an old saying. Continueing to do the same things over and over and expecting different results is a sign of insanity.

I use a checklist and rate the player when I watch them, we then review it together to determine what it is that they want to address.

Sorry you think I am so rigid in my beliefs.

I'm happy that you are not one of the "pendulum fundamentalists". They do exist, you know.

I didn't mean to offend you with my post, and I really hope I didn't. I know that some on here would not like what I said in it. I guess we might be more in agrement than I thought.

 

[Tony_in_MD]

No offense taken.

I'm happy that you are not one of the "pendulum fundamentalists". They do exist, you know.

I didn't mean to offend you with my post, and I really hope I didn't. I know that some on here would not like what I said in it. I guess we might be more in agrement than I thought.

 

[Scott Lee]

Nobody has EVER said that anybody who elbow drops is an ignorant yokel who doesn't know any better (although there certainly are some ignorant yokels here). From your post here, you obviously do not know the inner workings of the pendulum stroke. Tip up or tip down, at the end of the stroke, may not matter much to some players. The key is to have the cue reasonably level at contact with the CB. You won't find any of us (since you seem to want to make it an "us vs them" issue) who denigrate what someone does successfully and repeatedly...especially when they have a proven track record. We're out to help those that struggle with consistency...no matter what the reason for that inconsistency is. BTW, Mark Wilson teaches no elbow drop. Jerry Briesath teaches no elbow drop. Tony Robles teaches no elbow drop. There are many others. Are they misinformed as well?

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

The PBIA or whomever teaches a pendulum stroke may help a lot of people that way, but please don't pretend that everyone who doesn't do this is an ignorant yokel who doesn't know any better.

 

[Neil]

I'm happy that you are not one of the "pendulum fundamentalists". They do exist, you know.

I didn't mean to offend you with my post, and I really hope I didn't. I know that some on here would not like what I said in it. I guess we might be more in agrement than I thought.

Care to name one that only teaches the pendulum stroke? Seems like you have read some naysayers crap on here so much that you actually believe it.

 

[justadub]

Care to name one that only teaches the pendulum stroke? Seems like you have read some naysayers crap on here so much that you actually believe it.

Oh dear.....let's don't invoke the "naysayer" term outside of the aiming forums

 

[greyghost]

there are explained reasons why every top player does this or that move.....alot of its evolved from repitition and funky movements that over time for them became highly repeatable and accurate.

But go ahead and think you have to stroke it like earl to make it like earl....

there are shots Massey says you need to elbow drop and such....then i've seen snooker players snap the same shot on the 12ft knapp and just pure pendulum stroke it in....

but jeff bagwell musta been on to something right guys and gals?

Its also funny how you see all the players come out of asian and euro state programs and they all look very similar in addressing and stances....there is of course some vareity esp when you consider heights, but in general theres a template there.......these CONTRIVED TEMPLATES lol.

Let me know when you see "keith McCready" come out of an asian or european pool and billiard factory.

Dont worry I'll wait......Wu didn't win a world championship accidentally finding something in case you maybe wondered about things like that before.

smh,
-Greyghost

 

[greyghost]

Immaturity abounds from age 32 on up.

so thats why you act as you do old man? way to say the opposite of what you wanted genius...

maybe you meant to try MATURITY abounds......or you could have said abounds from age 32 and below.....

-grammer elf

 

[Straightpool_99]

Nobody has EVER said that anybody who elbow drops is an ignorant yokel who doesn't know any better (although there certainly are some ignorant yokels here). From your post here, you obviously do not know the inner workings of the pendulum stroke. Tip up or tip down, at the end of the stroke, may not matter much to some players. The key is to have the cue reasonably level at contact with the CB. You won't find any of us (since you seem to want to make it an "us vs them" issue) who denigrate what someone does successfully and repeatedly...especially when they have a proven track record. We're out to help those that struggle with consistency...no matter what the reason for that inconsistency is. BTW, Mark Wilson teaches no elbow drop. Jerry Briesath teaches no elbow drop. Tony Robles teaches no elbow drop. There are many others. Are they misinformed as well?

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

So I don't know the inner workings of the pendulum stroke, eh? LOL, I guess I'm the ignorant yokel, huh? I was introduced to the pendulum stroke very early as part of learning snooker. I found it very unnatural and counter productive for me. I'm aware of the fact that you can manipulate the hands and wrists to get a more level cue action, using a fixed elbow. I just don't see how that is any better or less complex than a normal cue action. And if you don't do this, you WILL dig your tip into the cloth with a pendulum stroke, assuming of course a normal angle of the cue at impact, it's just the nature of the beast.

Anyway, those people teaching no elbow drop, are they misinformed? Depends on what you mean by that. Are they out of touch with what nearly every pro is doing? IMO, yes they are. One day I'd like to see a statistic of some sort, not just a few randomly selected individuals but a really large list of pros, short stops, and A+ players the world over. I think it would be pretty conclusive in favor of the elbow drop. Why is that, do you think? Please don't say because of ignorance. I think the actual ignorant people are the ones casually dismissing the aquired knowledge of people devoting their life to the game.

People who teach a pendulum swing have a system in their teaching, built on a philosophy of "fewest possible moving parts", with which I am in near total disagreement. Humans are not robots, and our muscles are not built for this kind of movement. We are built for flowing motions, not rigid back and forth, using only a pair of muscles. This creates a very unnatural feeling stroke and movement of this sort is likely to cause discomfort and even injuries. Luckily the pool cue is so light that injuries are unlikely in our sport, but it is not out of the question if you do this kind of thing every day for decades. No other athlete uses this principle apart from maybe marksmen, but they don't have to propel their projectile with their muscles.

 

[greyghost]

So I don't know the inner workings of the pendulum stroke, eh? LOL, I guess I'm the ignorant yokel, huh? I was introduced to the pendulum stroke very early as part of learning snooker. I found it very unnatural and counter productive for me. I'm aware of the fact that you can manipulate the hands and wrists to get a more level cue action, using a fixed elbow. I just don't see how that is any better or less complex than a normal cue action. And if you don't do this, you WILL dig your tip into the cloth with a pendulum stroke, it's just the nature of the beast.

Anyway, those people teaching no elbow drop, are they misinformed? Depends on what you mean by that. Are they out of touch with what nearly every pro is doing? IMO, yes they are. One day I'd like to see a statistic of some sort, not just a few randomly selected individuals but a really large list of pros, short stops, and A+ players the world over. I think it would be pretty conclusive in favor of the elbow drop. Why is that, do you think? Please don't say because of ignorance. I think the actual ignorant people are the ones casually dismissing the aquired knowledge of people devoting their life to the game.

People who teach a pendulum swing have a system in their teaching, built on a philosophy of "fewest possible moving parts", with which I am in near total disagreement. Humans are not robots, and our muscles are not built for this kind of movement. We are built for flowing motions, not rigid back and forth, using only a pair of muscles. This creates a very unnatural feeling stroke and movement of this sort is likely to cause discomfort and even injuries. Luckily the pool cue is so light that injuries are unlikely in our sport, but it is not out of the question if you do this kind of thing every day for decades. No other athlete uses this principle apart from maybe marksmen, but they don't have to propel their projectile with their muscles.

pitchers do.....top pitchers barely even hold the ball.....the arm cant move that fast with tension....and is why many younger players get hurt...trying to THROW the ball....if we were really trying to move heavier objects you would see more people being "injured" trying for force shots like you see constantly anyways.....hitting the chit out the ball to get no action as is perennially rampant....it does feel unnaturl untill you learn the motions....but hows that diff from anything else you learn new.....first time anyone did the horizontal mambo i bet it didnt feel "natural" lmfao....except you were more drawn to that than turned off by the strange new feeling.

there are differences between natural feeling things and natural motions, meaning biomechanically correct for either side and to how and why such things work or do not, or how strokes can be patched togehter also because of vaiations of hands and body placement and muscle tension.

 

[Neil]

So I don't know the inner workings of the pendulum stroke, eh? LOL, I guess I'm the ignorant yokel, huh? I was introduced to the pendulum stroke very early as part of learning snooker. I found it very unnatural and counter productive for me. I'm aware of the fact that you can manipulate the hands and wrists to get a more level cue action, using a fixed elbow. I just don't see how that is any better or less complex than a normal cue action. And if you don't do this, you WILL dig your tip into the cloth with a pendulum stroke, it's just the nature of the beast.

Anyway, those people teaching no elbow drop, are they misinformed? Depends on what you mean by that. Are they out of touch with what nearly every pro is doing? IMO, yes they are. One day I'd like to see a statistic of some sort, not just a few randomly selected individuals but a really large list of pros, short stops, and A+ players the world over. I think it would be pretty conclusive in favor of the elbow drop. Why is that, do you think? Please don't say because of ignorance. I think the actual ignorant people are the ones casually dismissing the aquired knowledge of people devoting their life to the game.

People who teach a pendulum swing have a system in their teaching, built on a philosophy of "fewest possible moving parts", with which I am in near total disagreement. Humans are not robots, and our muscles are not built for this kind of movement. We are built for flowing motions, not rigid back and forth, using only a pair of muscles. This creates a very unnatural feeling stroke and movement of this sort is likely to cause discomfort and even injuries. Luckily the pool cue is so light that injuries are unlikely in our sport, but it is not out of the question if you do this kind of thing every day for decades. No other athlete uses this principle apart from maybe marksmen, but they don't have to propel their projectile with their muscles.

Nothing like taking a page out of Rick's playbook. Make declarative statements with nothing to substantiate them to bolster your stance. Meanwhile, most are reading it scratching their heads and thinking- did he really just say that? Does he really think anyone is buying that?