pooltchr said:
A properly executed pendilum stroke is the easiest way to provide consistent stroke...the key words being "properly executed"
Steve
The pendulum stroke does not work for everyone.
me said:
In contrast, the elbow drop extends the distance where the tip contacts the cue ball at its desired offset.
How much distance do you need? How far does the tip travel while it is in contact with the cue ball?
You misunderstand my statement. This refers to the distance the tip travels before contact - i.e., in a straight line. The pendulum does not do this - you only have a small window when the tip is at the desired offset. If your bridge is too close, you mis-hit the ball. If your bridge is too far, you miscue. Even small variations can have disastrous results.
The pendulum, for all its benefits, is not immune from defects in design or application.
me said:
But the elbow drop typically starts before contact, to ensure a nice level stroke. Some people also pump their arms to get the desired effect, but as noted on AZ numerous times, the more moving parts, the more can go wrong. If the more moving parts, the more can go wrong is true, then why do you want to introduce elbow movement, and therefore shoulder and upper arm movement into your stroke? And I think most players would agree that dropping the elbow prior to contact takes away much of your consistancy.
I do not recall stating or advocate introducing additional movement. Quite the contrary. The reality is that such movement exists. I was explaining the reasons. MANY people play just fine with all kinds of strokes. I don't believe that ignoring the fact that it happens makes it go away...
me said:
As a little experiment, try the elbow drop, you should be able extend the cue at least a foot or more (piston-style) without the tip raising at all. What is to be gained? After the tip and cue ball have separated, why do you need another foot of the cue remaining level. All the work is already done by then. In fact, with the right application of elbow drop, you can follow through up to the joint without raising the tip. too many moving parts for me.
Again, you don't understand what I am saying, and take my statement out of context. My response was directed to the comment about the tip raising after contact due to elbow drop. First: my comment illustrated this was not accruate. Second: I am illustrating what the piston at its extreme can do - and why people use it. Also, I did not implicate or even refer to amount of time the tip is in contact with the cue ball. I'm not sure why you are stuck on this point. To answer your question (again taken out of context): what is gained is the knowledge that the piston does not cause the tip to raise after contact.
The pendulum stroke is not the be all, end all of stroking - and neither is the piston, or the hybrid pendulum/piston. All have benefits and issues. But experimenting can shed light on WHY you do something. I don't believe anyone should take the pendulum as the gospel, without experimenting on their own. If they like the pendulum, good. If not, good. But I don't advocate blindly following along simply because something may be better (or not) and somebody said so. I let the student decide what works for them. Even if I believed the pendulum was better for a particular student, I would not force feed it to them. Rather, I would let them educate themselves that it was better for them.
me said:
IMO, the real issue here is that as power increases, the appearance of any defects in fundamentals increases dramatically. Most people cannot physically execute a super power shot, not becuase they don't know how, but that their mechanics break down at warp speed. If you have excellent fundamentals - you can shoot the whammy draw as readily as a regular draw shot. THIS is one significant benefits of the pendulum stroke - a way to keep your fundamentals in peak form. I totally agree with this statement...which is why I don't understand your thoughts on dropping the elbow before contact.
Again, you missed the point. I believe a good instructor can explain all aspects of different styles of play, and not simply ignore the "other" side of the argument. I do not see why describing the piston stroke is in any way contradictory to the benefits of a true pendulum. It seems that you are good at pointing out why the pendulum is "better", and why everything else is bad.
But without knowledge and understanding regarding the merits of contrary methods, a teacher cannot convey - AND a student can't make - a proper assessment of what is the best for them. And isn't that the goal - to make the player better.
It almost seems like you are taking the position that it is more important to preach the pendulum than to better the student.
Again, as I stated above, the pendulum doesn't work for everyone.
In sum, I find it odd that you would misconstrue my entire post as a simple academic exercise to show why the pendulum is better. When in fact, there is no evidence of its APPLICATION being any better. That is, check the list of world champion players to ever live, in any cue sport, and compare how many actually use the true pendulum vs. anything else. I would guestimate that maybe 1% (if even 1%) of the last 10 years of U.S. Open winners, Derby City winners, SBE winners, 14.1 championship winners, World Cup players, Mosconi cup players, international 3-Cushion winners, and various international 9 and 10-ball tournament winners, used the true pendulum stroke. I would also venture to say that none of the Hall-of-Fame members used the true pendulum. And I would guess that only a very few of the most recent BCA amateur and APA amateur winners did.
The truth is that pool is a dynamic exercise in application - with changing variables on any given day. Some people need the pendulum to have a consistent baseline in order to play. Others need to create a margin of error during their play. Thus, the piston stroke (aka dropping of the elbow) provides a way to normalize their playing for different conditions. Lastly, I do believe the pendulum is better as a training aid for beginning and amateur players, but, at a certain level of play, other options need to be presented. And, in real world application, the ridigity of the pendulum (more often than not) appears to be abandoned in favor of the margin of error provided by a piston/hybrid stroke.
-td
