SVB cheating? Shaw/SVB Derby 9 Ball

JD_Hogg

JD_Hogg

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don't think Shane is doing anything wrong. He racks them tight, reads the rack and breaks accordingly. That's why he is the best and the rest aren't.

Early on, Shaw racked tight, broke soft knowing he'd get perfect shape on the one. Is that cheating? No, just a different tactic that didn't work to his favor in this meeting.
 
mikeyfrost

mikeyfrost

Socially Aware
Silver Member
Those two are gonna beat each other enough times over the next 10 years this will be irrelevant. Chris Melling faded a 5 pack to be a champion, Johnny was working the rack that set. Sometimes you have to just patiently wait for your opportunity and do the best you can with it, I fully believe Jayson could have come back from a 6-3 deficit, he's probably done that a hundred times in his life.

There's probably a little more to the story, I think fatigue set in terribly....that final 2 days was brutal on the players...that grind will take its toll.
 
R

rjbigfish

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
Silver Member
mikeyfrost said:
Those two are gonna beat each other enough times over the next 10 years this will be irrelevant. Chris Melling faded a 5 pack to be a champion, Johnny was working the rack that set. Sometimes you have to just patiently wait for your opportunity and do the best you can with it, I fully believe Jayson could have come back from a 6-3 deficit, he's probably done that a hundred times in his life.

There's probably a little more to the story, I think fatigue set in terribly....that final 2 days was brutal on the players...that grind will take its toll.
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Good thing Melling is in tip top physical condition so that stamina wasn't an issue for him. :)
 
bradsh98

bradsh98

Bradshaw Billiard Service
Silver Member
Everyone is so focused on the gaps in this rack.. Yet, no one has mentioned anything about how high the rack is placed.
 
L

LWD

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Yes, the basic rule is that all balls in the rack should be frozen to each other. Maybe SVB was deliberately violating this rule, maybe not. Maybe it was just a loose rack, which happens sometimes even without it being intentional. In the absence of a referee there is no way to definitively settle this question.

But what is certain and clear is that Shaw had no right to interrupt Shane’s play and jump up to take a picture of the rack, as if he was some kind of tournament official charged with catching cheaters. And even worse, Shaw took it upon himself to disturb Shane’s rack while Shane was preparing to break and forcing Shane to do a rerack. THAT ACTION was the only certain and unambiguous act of unsportsmanlike conduct visible in the incident.
 
J

Jerry R

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
What a mess.....lol.

I have so many mixed feeling on all this it's hard not to contradict myself. I think Justin is correct in his assessment. And Bob is correct in his assessment of Justin's assessment...:thumbup:

But seriously, I feel like 9 ball is a great game, but I think the talent and knowledge level has proven it may not be a great game for all levels of play. I think at this point it's like watching Chess masters play checkers. Doesn't mean that checkers isn't a fun game, but probably isn't the best game to asses Bobby Fischer's skill level.

If you rack your own, you can manipulate the rack, if your opponent racks so can they. If you have a ref do it you are relying on them being professional enough to stay neutral. Even than, all it takes is one bad rack for one player and then we would have a thread questioning the integrity of the ref just like we are questioning the players in this one.

Can 10 ball still be manipulated? Yes, I think so. Can it be done as easily as 9 ball? Probably not, or at least not yet. So I do think going to 10 ball is a viable way to reduce the number of issues.
I suppose we could always dust off the 10ft four pocket table from the Earl/Darren match. It's been a long time now, but I don't remember there being more then one break and run in that whole match.

What I find the most disturbing and frustrating is that it doesn't appear there is any solution to this issue, but yet we still use 9 ball as the gauge for what (at least to the general public) is consider the biggest event of the year...you know that event where we play 9 ball, named for that guy that nobody thinks of when you think of great nine ball players...:sorry:

Ultimately these debates are fun to a point, but in the end none of us know what was in Shane or Jayson's heads during that match, so we are all just speculating. I do think the last couple tournaments I've played where you could not touch the balls with your hands once they were in the rack was a good start in helping to control these issues. But that's just my opinion.
 
L

LWD

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
And oh, BTW, a small point: The picture Shaw took of the rack was of a rack that Shane never actually broke with because Shaw messed up that rack and Shane had to rerack. We have no photo of the rack he actually broke, so we don’t know if it looked like the one in the photo or not.
 
L

LWD

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think Jerry R is right in pretty much everything he says here.

If I remember correctly, the way racking is handled in the Mosconi Cup is that the ref does the racking and the players are allowed to examine the rack but they cannot touch it or request a rerack. IMO, that is the best solution to racking issues. Could there still be some controversy? Sure. But of all the melodrama in the recent Mosconi Cup, I don’t recall any about racking issues. Seems like the best we can do in professional settings.
 
kor b

kor b

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
LWD said:
I think Jerry R is right in pretty much everything he says here.

If I remember correctly, the way racking is handled in the Mosconi Cup is that the ref does the racking and the players are allowed to examine the rack but they cannot touch it or request a rerack. IMO, that is the best solution to racking issues. Could there still be some controversy? Sure. But of all the melodrama in the recent Mosconi Cup, I don’t recall any about racking issues. Seems like the best we can do in professional settings.
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Having a ref at the Mosconi cup and having a ref at every table at the DCC is miles apart.
 
sjm

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
LWD said:
I think Jerry R is right in pretty much everything he says here.

If I remember correctly, the way racking is handled in the Mosconi Cup is that the ref does the racking and the players are allowed to examine the rack but they cannot touch it or request a rerack. IMO, that is the best solution to racking issues. Could there still be some controversy? Sure. But of all the melodrama in the recent Mosconi Cup, I don’t recall any about racking issues. Seems like the best we can do in professional settings.
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I'm no guru on racking and won't comment on whether and how the rack is being doctored, but it sure doesn't work for the fans when players spend a long time racking the balls.

SVB shouldn't be the only one in the fire here. All of you who watched it (on the outer tables) know that Orcullo probably averaged three minutes to rack the balls in the semifinal against Melling. I sweated it with Greg Sullivan at my side, and I told him that unless something was done to stop this kind of delay in the play, the least he could do is give out free coffee to all attending fans to help them stay awake.

Yes, the Mosconi Cup sets the standard. You get a good tight rack, not a perfect rack and not a rack with gaps exactly where you want them. I haven't ever seen what I'd call a slug rack given at the Mosconi. You're allowed to inspect the rack, but no reracks are permitted. Matchroom knows how to keep an event moving along, and that's why their events are the very best in our sport.
 
M

mudball

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The gaps Shane was leaving is not so much about making the wing ball go as it is controlling the 1 ball AND making the wing ball go. Leaving those gaps allows the wing ball to go while breaking nearly head on (like the ideal 10 ball break) which leads to the 1 ball going straight towards the upper corner pocket (just like his 10 ball break that he is famous for).

Morra called Shane out on it during the the TV table match, ref made him rack the balls tight, Shane fails to pocket the wing ball 2 times in a row then starts breaking from the rail. Hmmm.

You can call Jayson a cry baby and/or sore loser, but Shane and Dennis are definitely using this strategy with the gaps. Cheating or not it needs to go away. It cheapens the game severely.

I believe John and Jayson were being honest with getting all balls tight (or at least the 4 ball track) to make the wing ball go when breaking from the side rail. The 1 ball is much less predicible this way.

I spoke with Jayson during the Chris/Dennis match and asked what his solution was since the magic rack makes the wing ball dead as well and he said "US Open rules". I think I'd be ok with that since 10 ball logistically isn't an option.
 
A

AtLarge

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
mudball said:
... I spoke with Jayson during the Chris/Dennis match and asked what his solution was since the magic rack makes the wing ball dead as well and he said "US Open rules". I think I'd be ok with that since 10 ball logistically isn't an option.
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And here is what that meant for the streamed matches in this year's US Open 9-Ball Championship:

- Accu-Rack racking template;
- winner breaks from the box -- 9" to each side of the long string;
- referee racks with the 9-ball on the foot spot and the 2-ball at the back of the rack;
- the break is illegal (and non-breaker has an option to shoot) unless at least 3 balls touch the plane of the head string or are pocketed.
 
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