Swanee payouts

[Sire380]

Just so there is no confusion, POV Pool is a business and also deserves the opportunity to make money. POV did not stream the Swanee in previous years out of the goodness of its heart. CSI paid them to conduct a free stream and they retained exclusive rights to the videos. This year, since we have our own streaming capability, it made more sense to conduct the stream ourselves and at least try to break even. More importantly, we own the videos which we can use for promotional purposes.

I'm sorry you feel taken advantage of but the reality is CSI paid the bill for you to watch for free in previous years. This year, we had to make a change to reduce the loss and at least gain the rights to our own tournament match videos. I hope you understand.

"POV did not stream the Swanee in previous years out of the goodness of its heart. CSI paid them to conduct a free stream and they retained exclusive rights to the videos. This year, since we have our own streaming capability, it made more sense to conduct the stream ourselves and at least try to break even."

I understand that. I gathered that from this thread where someone said that Daniel was just mad that he didn't get the contract this year to stream. Honestly I do appreciate that CSI footed the bill in previous years so that POV could stream the tournament. I just thought that POV did such a good job the past couple of years that it might have earned them the right to at least be involved.

What I was basically trying to say was "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Obviously there were tons of scheduling and technical issues that were never much of a problem when POV was streaming. And if there were, it was free so nobody had the right to complain.

One more point, I understand about the rights to the videos. I just hope you post them on Youtube like POV has done in the past.

 

[hotrod622]

aside from all the payout BS, I would like to know the results of this tournament. are they posted anywhere

 

[JoeyA]

I didn't say not "making money", I said "losing money". Either way, it's a terrible business decision to continue doing something that the best case scenario is to break even. I'm pretty tired of hearing the "we're not getting rich running events" because while that may be true, events like Swanee could turn a profit if they were run by someone local with less expenses.

Other than the hotel expenses and the cost of getting to the event, what other expenses might be eliminated?

JoeyA

 

[fast&loose designs]

If Mark, CSI, and Ozzy are still reading this thread:

Here's what the public wants. This is coming from not only what has been said on this thread, but what has been said on Facebook, in PMs and emails to me from players and spectators, and from word of mouth during and after the event - to me.

1. CLARITY
This is number 1 because it's really the main issue. If it had been advertised as "No money added - prize fund will be comprised of entry fees only" (or whatever it was that made up the full purse in the end - I'm still confused), then no one would be able to complain about confusion. Even though that may be difficult to list out, at least players and spectators will know what they are getting into before doing so.

2. JAY SWANSON
It has been said several times that in the last few years there has been little mention of Swanee himself, and all we're remembering after this weekend is controversy, not The Gentle Giant. Last year I designed, printed, and brought in a large poster of Swanee that many players and spectators signed. If it hadn't been for that, there was little or no other mention of him (at least not while I was there nearly all weekend).

3. SPONSORSHIP
I can't imagine that there was no sponsorship interest, unless there was none sought out. This is considered one of the biggest, toughest, and most prestigious tournaments in the US, and it's not even held at a large venue. If there were 5 or more CASH sponsors for the event, there would be plenty more money in the prize fund.

4. COVERAGE
I can't speak for the quality of the stream because I only watched the finals, but not many positive things have been said about it other than Jay Helfert did awesome commentary, as always. I don't see why the stream can't be free - again, sponsors on your stream can pay for whatever you paid the streamer, plus more. This is a HUGE event that is seen all over the county, and wold I'm sure. Set a firm price for advertising on the stream, or offer several different options. Hell, I might even be interested in sponsoring (ask POV - I've sponsored a lot).

5. HAVE AN OPEN MIND
Listen to what people are saying. You are only hearing voices of those who are willing to speak up, but they speak for not just themselves, but for those who don't know how or aren't willing to contribute to the discussion. Spend more time hearing the problem and trying to come up with a solution rater than defending what was done wrong and why it was. Some ideas are extreme, but they are there. Instead of talking about ditching the event, consider making changes. Just because it's been done a certain way for 20 years doesn't mean it can't change up. Take what people have said here and elsewhere and really try to figure out how it can be profitable. Someone brought up the point of "Well, everyone needs to feel like they got a good return on their investment." The room needs to make money, obviously, and so does the promoter and staff, but it gets hairy when the gains are heavily lopsided, especially when it's AWAY from the players. I hear a lot of "we HAD to do it that way" instead of "maybe we could/should do it this way."

I would also like to apologize for getting out of hand and speaking emotionally rather than rationally at first. I jumped to conclusions about what happened in a few cases, and should not have referred to you guys as crooked. I understand that you were operating under good intentions, even if they didn't appear as such. However, that doesn't change the fact that we would like to see things done differently than this year in future Swanee events. Chances are you will still get a turnout even if you do things exactly the same, but slowly you will get less and less support.

 

[watchez]

Chris -

I am surprised that you are damning a business and businessman for making a buck. If this is the same Chris I am thinking, I reached out to you to inquire about you making a flyer for me since you do quite nice work. Your response was that it was $300. To me, that seemed extreme. $300? Not sure how long it would take you but even if it would be 8 hours, cause if you made $300 a day that would be a pretty decent living, that would seem like an incredible amount of time to make a flyer.

Beyond that, I am surprised that Ozzy gave such a breakdown of CSI expenses. I don't ask for a list of expenses when I go to a nice restaurant and question why the filet is $50. If I want the filet at that place, I pay the $50. If I don't, I have the option to eat elsewhere.

It is all about what you think your skills or product are worth.

 

[9ball101]

List of finishers

I would also like to see the list of finishers in this tournament

 

[Joe_Jaguar]

I would also like to see the list of finishers in this tournament

http://www.azbilliards.com/tours_an...anee-memorial-9-ball-tournament-2015/results/

 

[mikepage]

[...]
If he's losing money holding the event, I would suggest he move on from it
[...]
Either way, it's a terrible business decision to continue doing something that the best case scenario is to break even. [...]

There are many examples of altruistic actions in pool.

Bob Jewett, as one example, has been doing tremendous things for pool for decades and often digging deep into his own pockets to make them happen (I'm not sure but I think he personally has added $$ and donated his time, etc. to make the 14.1 stuff happen at Derby. And I think he largely funded the Jacksonville project, when he and a small team rented a high-speed camera (back when they were very expensive) to address a lot of unanswered questions.

And then there'e Mike Shamos...

And then there's right now a fellow in Minneapolis who donated $1500 of his own money to make five $300-added big table 10-ball tournaments happen.

And there's all the things Dr. Dave has done to make tremendous information available to everybody...

My contributions don't compare to those of any of the above people, but like them I did a number of things when I had no business connection to pool: I prepared a series of free instructional videos. I organized and ran straight-pool leagues. i organized and ran (and contributed my own money to) a series of monthly pool tournaments, and so forth...

We are all aware generally of these sorts of contributions from non-business people, people that are involved solely because pool and the advancement of pool is their passion...

Here's what is weird.

As soon as a person does *business* in pool, we imagine that if they ever were kindred spirits with the above, they have now somehow flipped to the dark side. Now actions are based a series of cool, dispassionate, narrowly focused decisions about the bottom line. We fail to look at them the same way.

I now make my livelihood in pool. I do several things that don't make money. I do several things for which I try to be efficient and lose as little money as possible. The tournaments I run are in this category. I add over $10,000 a year to pool tournaments. And though it's very hard to do the arithmetic accurately, I am confident I lose money on pool tournaments. And I'm confident if I put the same amount of effort into bar-golf-bean-bag-blah-blah events, that time would be better spent financially. That's just not what I'm about...

I think it is much more accurate to think of Mark Griffin as like a Bob Jewett, Mike Shamos, etc--i.e., a person motivated by passion for pool--that happens to do business in pool. To such a passionate person, resources mean opportunity. If CSI is more successful generally, then that means there is more opportunity to do the things that don't really make money but are what we all want. If you are trying to understand Mark Griffin's actions by following the money, well I'd say you lack insight.

OK, I digress.... Let's get back on topic

What's the topic again?

Oh yeah, we're working out the proper postage expense in pool-tournament promotion and discussing disappointed streamers...

 

[fast&loose designs]

Chris -

I am surprised that you are damning a business and businessman for making a buck. If this is the same Chris I am thinking, I reached out to you to inquire about you making a flyer for me since you do quite nice work. Your response was that it was $300. To me, that seemed extreme. $300? Not sure how long it would take you but even if it would be 8 hours, cause if you made $300 a day that would be a pretty decent living, that would seem like an incredible amount of time to make a flyer.

Beyond that, I am surprised that Ozzy gave such a breakdown of CSI expenses. I don't ask for a list of expenses when I go to a nice restaurant and question why the filet is $50. If I want the filet at that place, I pay the $50. If I don't, I have the option to eat elsewhere.

It is all about what you think your skills or product are worth.

Yes that's me. $300 for a poster is very very cheap. None of my posters were done in 8 hours. The technical work - on the computer - usually takes about 2-4 hours, give or take. But the design process itself takes a VERY long time (sometimes over 20 hours of sketching, comps, typography), and I don't create posters that I don't want my name on. I put a lot of care, effort, craftsmanship, and expertise into every one I make. And the $300 is a friendly price to the pool world. Outside of that industry, a poster like that costs my clients over $700. Go to any designer of my caliber and experience, and you won't get a $300 price tag - unless you want lower quality. I can see how that looks high to the average person, but once you shop around you'll see it's competitive.

 

[wayne]

Just curious, did any of the players have a problem with payouts?
Or did they play, have fun, and not worry about it?
Or is this just AZ doing what AZ does?

I have played in most of the Swanee tournaments since the move to L.A.
The vast majority of the players are local and I can't imagine any of them have a problem with the payouts (most don't get that far anyway). There are usually 5 to 10 pros in the tournament who are not local and they normally end up near the top and the payout may not be great for them.

Therefore it is probably 95% AZ doing what AZ does.

CSI runs it very well and maybe they could fine tune the accounting to satisfy AZ and the few players who may have questions.

e.g. Nothing major just a simple $90 entry ($25 goes to fees) with a guaranteed $3500 added + additional $500 added with a field of over 180.

Then the payout would be the number of players x 65 + $3500 or $4000. Payout this exact amount.

All problems solved.

Wayne

 

[yobagua]

"Here's what the public wants"

Excuse me are you an elected official? Or do you hold some high post in a service organization? Or a Union rep? Its quite presumptuous for you to speak for the public. I am part of the public and so are my friends and family and you certainly dont speak for us.

Do you go into your barbers or optometrist and try to set their prices? Do you ask for the salaries of their employees and criticize their pay scale?

Come on get off it. The fact is Mark Griffin is doing his best. He was not there because he had a medical condition. Knowing him he would have taken care of a lot of complaints because of who he is.

I wouldnt. I would have told you to go somewhere else for your enjoyment. if I cant please you. Especially when you hide behind the masses you think you represent.

 

[fast&loose designs]

"Here's what the public wants"

Excuse me are you an elected official? Or do you hold some high post in a service organization? Or a Union rep? Its quite presumptuous for you to speak for the public. I am part of the public and so are my friends and family and you certainly dont speak for us.

Do you go into your barbers or optometrist and try to set their prices? Do you ask for the salaries of their employees and criticize their pay scale?

Come on get off it. The fact is Mark Griffin is doing his best. He was not there because he had a medical condition. Knowing him he would have taken care of a lot of complaints because of who he is.

I wouldnt. I would have told you to go somewhere else for your enjoyment. if I cant please you. Especially when you hide behind the masses you think you represent.

I paraphrased what people on this thread and other threads have said. I'm not hiding behind anything, relax buddy.

 

[yobagua]

I paraphrased what people on this thread and other threads have said. I'm not hiding behind anything, relax buddy.

You paraphrased. Yes you were not exacting in your statement yet you require others to. A lot of the thread expresses counter to your opinion yet you dont seem to see that. If you mean to relax as to overlook your discrepancies that is a laughing matter as you insist others not do so.
We can tell you to RELAX when it comes to judging a local tournament enjoyed by a big number of people who have the opportunity to celebrate not only in a great event but in memory of a great person run by an individual who has made an enormous contribution to pool.

 

[fast&loose designs]

You paraphrased. Yes you were not exacting in your statement yet you require others to. A lot of the thread expresses counter to your opinion yet you dont seem to see that. If you mean to relax as to overlook your discrepancies that is a laughing matter as you insist others not do so.
We can tell you to RELAX when it comes to judging a local tournament enjoyed by a big number of people who have the opportunity to celebrate not only in a great event but in memory of a great person run by an individual who has made an enormous contribution to pool.

I don't know if you're from California or not, or have Facebook, but if you were both of those things, like I am, you would see that social media has erupted with concerns about this past weekend.

 

[00john]

And thats exactly what im talking about!! So cavalier in his attitude and explanations..We have to do better people..

If we were playing for golf money nobody would care one bit about covering expenses incurred. To me it doesnt make sense to bash people who want to make pool more lucrative.

 

[yobagua]

I don't know if you're from California or not, or have Facebook, but if you were both of those things, like I am, you would see that social media has erupted with concerns about this past weekend.

Just what we need. Judgement by Social Media.
We dont need the Supreme Court anymore.
Next youre going to tell me the Kardashians are a relevant entity because of the millions who follow them. LOL!!
Eruption!!! Thats funny!
Oh and Ive been a California resident since 1967

 

[cardiac kid]

Just what we need. Judgement by Social Media.
We dont need the Supreme Court anymore.
Next youre going to tell me the Kardashians are a relevant entity because of the millions who follow them. LOL!!
Eruption!!! Thats funny!
Oh and Ive been a California resident since 1967

Careful Yobagua, your next network appearance may be on one of the near million shows about the Kardashian Family .

Lyn

 

[lorider]

the 1st thing i want to say is...its good to see mark as feisty as ever during his recovery from surgery in defense of his organization! i have disagreed with his stance a time or 2 regarding bcapl but i highly respect him for his attempts to help pool in general.

ozzie sent me a pm in regards to a post i made a while back. his comments in that pm earned him some respect from me also. he never did answer 2 questions i posed in that thread though. :grin-square:

i see some one took out their fine tooth comb and crunched the numbers for the latest tourny. yep their numbers don't add up so mark must have shafted the players . this subject has been brought up many times on this forum and every time, most posters agreed that the words " added money " is a misnomer.

i see that even after ozzie came on and publicly crunched the numbers we still have several posters running wild with the famous " azb lynch mob mentality " being judge, jury and executioner.

so i understand mark made 1,600.0 and some change off this tourny. the nerve of him to bring people from his office in nevada to california and run a tourny and make a few dollars. mark should have done it for free and put that money in the players pockets...right fellas ?

the nerve of hard times charging an admission fee .. making a few dollars and being able to stay open another year.

the nerve of charging a ppv fee. it oughta be free also. all this doing stuff for nothing and every thing oughta be free reminds me of a few threads a while back where people said money leagues oughta pay 100 % back.

pool is the only bussiness i have ever heard of where people complain about some one making money off of it.

when mark makes a full recovery ...which i hope is speedy. he may come on here like he did once before when his integrity was questioned and tell every one to kiss his ass. :grin-square:

then again he may decide his tireless efforts to promote pool aint worth the mud slung in his direction due to threads like this and say fvck it and quit. would that make you guys happy? with some of the posts i am reading in this thread a lot of you apparently do not appreciate his efforts unless he is doing it for free which i understand he has done more than once.

 

[lorider]

bump from page 3.

 

[PINKLADY]

....when mark makes a full recovery ...which i hope is speedy. he may come on here like he did once before when his integrity was questioned and tell every one to kiss his ass. :grin-square:

then again he may decide his tireless efforts to promote pool aint worth the mud slung in his direction due to threads like this and say fvck it and quit. would that make you guys happy? with some of the posts i am reading in this thread a lot of you apparently do not appreciate his efforts unless he is doing it for free which i understand he has done more than once.

i was going to ask for cliff notes from the past 2 days, but now i don't have to - thank you.

who herein, has picked up the phone & called Mark Griffin for the facts?

yep, that's what i thought. resume -