Swanee payouts

[jojopiff]

If you'll excuse me, my response to this thread has nothing to do with me not getting the live stream contract. Normally, I would take offense to your comment, but I'll give you a pass because you're just a newbie to the CSI family. It doesn't matter that I don't agree that you did it as a Pay Per View event. It doesn't matter that I feel that I could have done a better job. It doesn't matter that I think you could have easily filled this field by promoting it a little better. Frankly, I've gone out of my way to promote and share CSI and TAR in the last 4 years just to promote and share pool to the world, and I have never expected anything for it. The only notifications I made on Facebook pertinent to the Swanee this year were because of repeated inquiries to me and my staff as to how and why I'm not streaming it. I totally acknowledge your need to stream this event as an 'in-house' deal. From a marketing and branding perspective, it only makes sense that you do.

I'm not here to bash anyone, but I feel that it is my right to defend the player's perspective when they have unanswered questions as to where the money went and how much of it actually constituted a green fee and registration fee.

See post #47 - which would have read a little differently if I didn't see post #38.

Here he states his understanding that CSI streamed it themselves

Aside from the payouts, which I won't even get into, I was very disappointed to learn that POV Pool would not be streaming the Swanee this year. Honestly it wasn't about the sixteen dollars or whatever it was to get the stream. I pay for the US open ever year and have paid for the Mosconi Cup in the past. I was running around all weekend and didnt have more than an hour or two on Saturday and Sunday to watch. So I wasn't about to spend money on a stream that I could not devote more than a couple of hours to. Last year I remember I was busy but I had the opportunity to check in and see a match or two without having to purchase the stream. So it IS about the $16. I was in the same situation and didn't buy it. It's not CSI's fault I was too busy to commit to paying for something I couldn't watch. First you say it's not about the $16 but then go on to say that last year (since you could watch for free) that you could watch it when you weren't busy. Good memory, BTW. I don't remember what I did last week, much less last year.

Also I would be lying if I didn't say that I felt a little taken advantage of by CSI considering the stream was free the last two or three years. I just don't know why they would switch it up if it worked fine with POV the last few years. Money issues I'm assuming. I understand that. Speaking out of both sides of your mouth here. You feel taken advantage of, but, it's money issues and you understand that? Evidently you don't understand, otherwise why this post? You seem to have an axe to grind against CSI or in favor of POV Pool.

I simply appreciate what POV pool and Daniel have done these past couple of years and I honestly feel like the change in who streamed the event was unwarranted and unnecessary. See above, POV Pool says himself he understands their need to do as an "in-house" dealI've always felt that TAR/CSI overvalued their content by overcharging for their matches. While I'm aware that Daniel doesn't make nothing, his content has for the most part has been free and a lot of the time the action is better than some of some of those TAR/CSI matches.

Now I'm not posting to bash CSI or Mark Griffin. I would just like to let Ozzy or whoever know how disappointed I was when I found out that POV wasn't streaming as per usual. BTW I know for a fact that I wasn't the only one. Free POV for the Hard Times 10 ball event!!!

I don't know you and "now I'm not posting to bash" but you come off in this instance as being very cheap and upset you had to pay $16. I enjoy POV's streams, TV Mike, CSI, and whomever will show a stream for free or for charge. We all make choices as to whether we can get our money's worth when paying for a stream and sometimes it just doesn't make sense, and that isn't anyone's fault. And just because something used to be free and it ain't anymore, doesn't necessarily mean they're getting rich. Look at the numbers and it's fairly obvious they didn't make much, if any, money. Now they are here having to defend themselves. I wonder how annoying it is to have to defend yourself about how much money you've made, especially if you've made very little.

CSI Ozzy put out numbers and I don't necessarily think they operated at a loss (after all said and done) but really doubt they made much and if running the stream "in-house" took them from the red into the black, then kudos to them. And, I'm in favor of Cleary's or whomever's idea of getting rid of this $xxxx amount added stuff.

Show this:
Buy in: $x to pot, $y for green fees, and $z goes to ABC company for running it.
Sponsors: JoeBlow Pool Co. gave $xxx and this goes into the pot.
Total $: It equals ___% of TOTAL money paid by players. Again, someone already posted this and I'm copying, but the goal would be for 100% or better payout.

So please, go buy something or have work done by JoeBlow. Cause guess what, if he doesn't see a profit on his $xxx investment then you can bet your $16 that he won't be back next year.

I've gone way off topic and on a stupid rant.

Good day to all.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

I had other plans this weekend and didn't get to even stop by. Was there a door charge to spectate this year? Last year it was $10, iirc.

Bottom line for me is if I have the availability to play in the tournament, I do. It's the same with league. I do it because it is fun, not because it pencils out for me. Those that are going to do well in the event probably don't care because they are going to make money regardless. And there's not much reason for the dead money to complain because well, they're dead money. I don't begrudge an entity to make some money because let's face it, it's work to put one of these on. Even if CSI did make money we're not talking about getting fat off this thing. Maybe covered costs is all, and maybe didn't.

I think the problem was not disclosing the amount of the surcharges. But for that, this thread could probably have been avoided. Last year the surcharge was $28 but was clearly stated. I don't recall a bruhaha over this issue last year.

 

[cardiac kid]

Considering they collected $3500 in registration fees and $1000 in late fees, added money is a breeze.

And I'm not saying CSI robbed anyone or anyone made any money, I just think considering the size of the field vs the payouts, the tournament would be much better ran by a local guy or not at all. Just my opinion and that's not worth much more than a velvet painting of a whale and a dolphin getting it on.

Andrew,

I'd prefer to call it obfuscation or mis-direction. All the businesses working at the Swanee had a right to make money. If they don't, we don't have a tournament. How much they make to some degree is none of our business. When I walk into an event, I check the published numbers regarding the "added money" if there is any, the entry fee, the greens fees, percentages to the TD and player auction operator if available. Look at the payouts if available . If I don't like the numbers, I don't play. In some cases the numbers may be off but I'll decide to play anyway. Already spent the travel money.

Like so many others, I'm really dead money to the top players. Don't like it but that's the facts Jack! Truthfully, I'd rather play in an upside down tournament that sit home and watch it on a live stream.

Tha's my story and I'm sticking to it"!

Lyn

 

[cleary]

Andrew,

I'd prefer to call it obfuscation or mis-direction. All the businesses working at the Swanee had a right to make money. If they don't, we don't have a tournament. How much they make to some degree is none of our business.

I'm ok with someone making money, nobody should work for free. The problem in this case is the expenses are so high that they subtracted a lot from the payouts and still didn't make money. Doesn't make a ton of sense for anyone.

The people of Hard Times or someone in LA could run the same event and get the same amount of players with much less money spent in the process. They don't even need to "add" money, just don't charge a registration fee/late fee and it's the same money paid out... and you won't even need to spend $30 on envelopes!

 

[Jaden]

The only problem I had with the stream...

The only problem I had with the stream is that they seemed to start late and quit early...

My and Mika's match on the stream table was a great match with both of us running out several times and several safety battles. They had closed down for the night though and it was only like 9:30 or 10:00...

It also didn't seem like they started on Sunday until after 2:00 even though play started at 10:00.

Other than that, and I would have to say that I'm biased since it was ME playing on the stream table and would've liked my family to watch me play against the player of the decade, I've never had a problem with their stream.

Not entirely sure about the PPV, but when you have world class talent I can understand the desire to want to capitalize on that.

Jaden

 

[fast&loose designs]

Seems to me there are multiple businesses running concurrently at the Hardtimes Swanee event. The promoters, the tournament director, the pool room, the streamer and the players. Which one does not deserve to make a profit from their efforts?

Having said that, certainly agree with the posters who urge full disclosure in advance of the event. Sometimes the tables turn. One participant in this thread suggested another promoter was less than forthcoming when he failed to disclose (in advance) a significant portion of the event "added money" went to paying for the tables and lights brought in to play the event on. Obviously not a problem in this event but..... there were significant promoter expenses not mentioned in the Swanee event flyer covered by the entry fee. Which promoter was being completely truthfull? None of the above!

Each of us has a viewpoint in which our needs come first. As we are all human and not one of us is perfect, we all fail some of the time. As others have asked on this thread, who doesn't want a Swanee in 2016? Come on, step up and make your feelings known.

Lyn

You've touched on every issue here and make very good points. Kudos buddy.

 

[CSI - Ozzy]

Aside from the payouts, which I won't even get into, I was very disappointed to learn that POV Pool would not be streaming the Swanee this year. Honestly it wasn't about the sixteen dollars or whatever it was to get the stream. I pay for the US open ever year and have paid for the Mosconi Cup in the past. I was running around all weekend and didnt have more than an hour or two on Saturday and Sunday to watch. So I wasn't about to spend money on a stream that I could not devote more than a couple of hours to. Last year I remember I was busy but I had the opportunity to check in and see a match or two without having to purchase the stream.

Also I would be lying if I didn't say that I felt a little taken advantage of by CSI considering the stream was free the last two or three years. I just don't know why they would switch it up if it worked fine with POV the last few years. Money issues I'm assuming. I understand that.

I simply appreciate what POV pool and Daniel have done these past couple of years and I honestly feel like the change in who streamed the event was unwarranted and unnecessary. I've always felt that TAR/CSI overvalued their content by overcharging for their matches. While I'm aware that Daniel doesn't make nothing, his content has for the most part has been free and a lot of the time the action is better than some of some of those TAR/CSI matches.

Now I'm not posting to bash CSI or Mark Griffin. I would just like to let Ozzy or whoever know how disappointed I was when I found out that POV wasn't streaming as per usual. BTW I know for a fact that I wasn't the only one. Free POV for the Hard Times 10 ball event!!!

Just so there is no confusion, POV Pool is a business and also deserves the opportunity to make money. POV did not stream the Swanee in previous years out of the goodness of its heart. CSI paid them to conduct a free stream and they retained exclusive rights to the videos. This year, since we have our own streaming capability, it made more sense to conduct the stream ourselves and at least try to break even. More importantly, we own the videos which we can use for promotional purposes.

I'm sorry you feel taken advantage of but the reality is CSI paid the bill for you to watch for free in previous years. This year, we had to make a change to reduce the loss and at least gain the rights to our own tournament match videos. I hope you understand.

 

[Koop]

Just curious, did any of the players have a problem with payouts?
Or did they play, have fun, and not worry about it?
Or is this just AZ doing what AZ does?

 

[mcsock]

First off, I do not believe there was a problem with the financial side of the swanee. CSI does not have a bad rep in that department.
I personally do not care who does the streaming, but the quality needs to be there. I donate to POV and gladly paid for the stream this year. I did not expect to see a down grade in the stream. I truely felt ripped off when I found out the event started 2 hrs before the stream. Incomplete coverage, no brackets, no chat on the stream, freezing stream are all things that can and need to be addressed.
To think the only way to know who was where in the event is via text from someone at the event is just wrong.

 

[spartan]

Who couldnt add money if they take it out of the entry fee?

Considering they collected $3500 in registration fees and $1000 in late fees, added money is a breeze.

And I'm not saying CSI robbed anyone or anyone made any money, I just think considering the size of the field vs the payouts, the tournament would be much better ran by a local guy or not at all. Just my opinion and that's not worth much more than a velvet painting of a whale and a dolphin getting it on.

If registration fee takes up bigger portion of entry fee, added money goes up.
Using CSI figures and green fees $6 credit card fees $3
Scenario 1 (Swannee) - Registration fee $21
Prize money portion=$90-$6 green fee-$3 credit care fee-$21=$60
Added Money = $13840 prizemoney payout-164x$60=$4000

Scenario 2 (DCC 9ball http://www.dcctickets.com/9Ball/tabid/70/Default.aspx ) - Registration fee $10
So prize money portion=$90-$6-$3-$10=$71
Added Money =$13840 prizemoney payout-164x$71=$2196

Scenario 3 - Registration fee $0
So prize money portion=$90-$6-$3-$0=$81
Added Money =$13840 prizemoney payout-164x$81=$556

Scenario 4 - Registration fee $81
So prize money portion=$90-$6-$3-$81=$0
Added Money =$13840 prizemoney payout-164x$0=$13840

We can see from above scenarios that the Registration fee can be increased and the added money will increase. In extreme Scenario 4, where Registration fee is $81, none of entry fee goes to prizemoney and full prizeemoney $13840 is added money

Question though is what is a common industry standard registration fee?
I see from DCC 9 ball http://www.dcctickets.com/9Ball/tabid/70/Default.aspx the registration fee is only $10 and good thing is they are transparent and clearly state that ** Entry fee includes a $10 registration fee. I see others do not charge registration fee also like Bigfoot,
If we use $10 registration fee like DCC 9 ball , then Scenario 2 above shows Added money is $2.2K
Obviously, the breakdown of the fees (like registration fee, green fee etc) in "Entry fee" should be transparent. Players can then decide beforehand whether a big enough % of the entry fee goes to prizemoney.

 

[one stroke]

If registration fee takes up bigger portion of entry fee, added money goes up.
Using CSI figures and green fees $6 credit card fees $3
Scenario 1 (Swannee) - Registration fee $21
Prize money portion=$90-$6 green fee-$3 credit care fee-$21=$60
Added Money = $13840 prizemoney payout-164x$60=$4000

Scenario 2 (DCC 9ball http://www.dcctickets.com/9Ball/tabid/70/Default.aspx ) - Registration fee $10
So prize money portion=$90-$6-$3-$10=$71
Added Money =$13840 prizemoney payout-164x$71=$2196

Scenario 3 - Registration fee $0
So prize money portion=$90-$6-$3-$0=$81
Added Money =$13840 prizemoney payout-164x$81=$556

Scenario 4 - Registration fee $81
So prize money portion=$90-$6-$3-$81=$0
Added Money =$13840 prizemoney payout-164x$0=$13840

We can see from above scenarios that the Registration fee can be increased and the added money will increase. In extreme Scenario 4, where Registration fee is $81, none of entry fee goes to prizemoney and full prizeemoney $13840 is added money

Question though is what is a common industry standard registration fee?
I see from DCC 9 ball http://www.dcctickets.com/9Ball/tabid/70/Default.aspx the registration fee is only $10 and good thing is they are transparent and clearly state that ** Entry fee includes a $10 registration fee. I see others do not charge registration fee also like Bigfoot,
If we use $10 registration fee like DCC 9 ball , then Scenario 2 above shows Added money is $2.2K
Obviously, the breakdown of the fees (like registration fee, green fee etc) in "Entry fee" should be transparent. Players can then decide beforehand whether a big enough % of the entry fee goes to prizemoney.

And when the decide to go play in Pacmans turney no one should have a problem with that

1

 

[yobagua]

Goodbye Swanee?

If I was a friend of Mark Griffin's, which Im not, I would suggest Mark to just walk away from it all. Do you really need this kind of petty grief over such a small amount of capital? As a customer Mark you have always treated me very kindly. From the 1st Us open One pocket event in downtown Las Vegas. You even gave me your personal cell phone number when I had problems.
I don't know you from Adam. But will always remember your approach to satisfying the customer and supporting the pro pool players.
I mean is this what the pool community wants? Don't let the myopic haters control the pool scene. Who made them the pool hall police?
And as far as POV goes, sounds like a lot of sour grapes,
Clean up your own house before you start to wail in.
Your selection of commentators are a joke as far as the one pocket community is concerned. From 9 ball players who couldn't spell one pocket to fellow streamers to the inarticulate.
Im only a small time donor to POV but Im done for now.

 

[Jaden]

Not me...

If I was a friend of Mark Griffin's, which Im not, I would suggest Mark to just walk away from it all. Do you really need this kind of petty grief over such a small amount of capital? As a customer Mark you have always treated me very kindly. From the 1st Us open One pocket event in downtown Las Vegas. You even gave me your personal cell phone number when I had problems.
I don't know you from Adam. But will always remember your approach to satisfying the customer and supporting the pro pool players.
I mean is this what the pool community wants? Don't let the myopic haters control the pool scene. Who made them the pool hall police?
And as far as POV goes, sounds like a lot of sour grapes,
Clean up your own house before you start to wail in.
Your selection of commentators are a joke as far as the one pocket community is concerned. From 9 ball players who couldn't spell one pocket to fellow streamers to the inarticulate.
Im only a small time donor to POV but Im done for now.

As Mark's friend I recommend he just ignore those people and keeps holding the tourney in memory of his friend.

Jaden

 

[cleary]

As Mark's friend I recommend he just ignore those people and keeps holding the tourney in memory of his friend.

Jaden

If he's losing money holding the event, I would suggest he move on from it.

 

[JoeyA]

If he's losing money holding the event, I would suggest he move on from it.

If pool tournament promoters looked at "making money on an event" as the criteria for having a tournament or not, there would be VERY FEW IF ANY, TOURNAMENTS for any of us to go to.

JoeyA

 

[cleary]

If pool tournament promoters looked at "making money on an event" as the criteria for having a tournament or not, there would be VERY FEW IF ANY, TOURNAMENTS for any of us to go to.

JoeyA

I didn't say not "making money", I said "losing money". Either way, it's a terrible business decision to continue doing something that the best case scenario is to break even. I'm pretty tired of hearing the "we're not getting rich running events" because while that may be true, events like Swanee could turn a profit if they were run by someone local with less expenses.

 

[bfdlad]

I didn't say not "making money", I said "losing money". Either way, it's a terrible business decision to continue doing something that the best case scenario is to break even. I'm pretty tired of hearing the "we're not getting rich running events" because while that may be true, events like Swanee could turn a profit if they were run by someone local with less expenses.

Here is another angle that nobody is really talking about. Right now people are adding up the entry fees. Admin fees and added money versus the payout. The other part of the puzzle is How much does it cost per hour for the CSI Staff to set this event up in the first place before they even get to SO Cal? Then of course as pointed out the expenses to get there. I know its not maybe much to some but the gas and hotel and food for the CSI staff all add up. I wonder what the nut is just to get the staff there aside from anything else. So I hear by some reports that there is about $4k missing from the pot. Well after you pay the expenses of CSI staff, Internets PPV fees if there are any (Don't know on that) and the hourly rate for the staff to be there and the hourly pay they got before the event happened to make it happen it will be more than $4k. Which means there is no money at the end A lot of risk for no reward. Now the PPV may have helped out but in reality how much could it have actually helped? Probably should be held by Oscar Dominguez and added to his Mezz Tour. Not sure if Mr Griffin is wantng to sell or hand over to the right person.

 

[yelvis111]

...How much does it cost per hour for the CSI Staff to set this event up in the first place before they even get to SO Cal? Then of course as pointed out the expenses to get there...

Ozzy lists it out in post #38

Pax,

Taek

 

[Sire380]

Here he states his understanding that CSI streamed it themselves

I don't know you and "now I'm not posting to bash" but you come off in this instance as being very cheap and upset you had to pay $16. I enjoy POV's streams, TV Mike, CSI, and whomever will show a stream for free or for charge. We all make choices as to whether we can get our money's worth when paying for a stream and sometimes it just doesn't make sense, and that isn't anyone's fault. And just because something used to be free and it ain't anymore, doesn't necessarily mean they're getting rich. Look at the numbers and it's fairly obvious they didn't make much, if any, money. Now they are here having to defend themselves. I wonder how annoying it is to have to defend yourself about how much money you've made, especially if you've made very little.

CSI Ozzy put out numbers and I don't necessarily think they operated at a loss (after all said and done) but really doubt they made much and if running the stream "in-house" took them from the red into the black, then kudos to them. And, I'm in favor of Cleary's or whomever's idea of getting rid of this $xxxx amount added stuff.

Show this:
Buy in: $x to pot, $y for green fees, and $z goes to ABC company for running it.
Sponsors: JoeBlow Pool Co. gave $xxx and this goes into the pot.
Total $: It equals ___% of TOTAL money paid by players. Again, someone already posted this and I'm copying, but the goal would be for 100% or better payout.

So please, go buy something or have work done by JoeBlow. Cause guess what, if he doesn't see a profit on his $xxx investment then you can bet your $16 that he won't be back next year.

I've gone way off topic and on a stupid rant.

Good day to all.

So it IS about the $16. I was in the same situation and didn't buy it. It's not CSI's fault I was too busy to commit to paying for something I couldn't watch. First you say it's not about the $16 but then go on to say that last year (since you could watch for free) that you could watch it when you weren't busy. Good memory, BTW. I don't remember what I did last week, much less last year.


What you're not comprehending is that I would have gladly paid the 16 dollars if I had the time to watch more than an hour or two. Hell, I would have paid 30 dollars if I had both days free to watch and enjoy it. My point being that like you, I was too busy to commit to paying for something I couldn't watch. BTW, is it that peculiar that I actually remember what I was doing last year during the Swanee? Maybe you should get some tests done for memory.

"Speaking out of both sides of your mouth here. You feel taken advantage of, but, it's money issues and you understand that? Evidently you don't understand, otherwise why this post? You seem to have an axe to grind against CSI or in favor of POV Pool."

Yes I feel that It was unnecessary to change something that was working from the viewers perspective. From a business standpoint, I understand the nature of capitalism and realize that it's about the bottom line. People can have opinions that are multi-dimensional.

"See above, POV Pool says himself he understands their need to do as an "in-house" deal"

Ok, no problem with that. I was simply commentating on what a great job POV has done with it the past couple of years. Except for a few freezing issues here and there, which are to be expected, the stream was excellent, started on time and went well into the night. Hell Daniel has even streamed some pre-Swanee side action as well. As far as the commentators, I would rather have people I don't know commentate than nobody at all.

"I don't know you and "now I'm not posting to bash" but you come off in this instance as being very cheap and upset you had to pay $16"

"We all make choices as to whether we can get our money's worth when paying for a stream and sometimes it just doesn't make sense, and that isn't anyone's fault"

Wait, you just contradicted yourself in those two quotes above. The second one stating exactly why I did not pay for the stream. Talk about a cheap shot. As I stated, I have paid for many streams before and would have no problem paying double what they were charging if I had the time to sit down and watch both days. As you admitted yourself, "I was just too busy to commit to paying for something that I couldn't watch." Does that make you cheap as well? I do agree with you as far as you going way off topic and on a stupid rant.

 

[9ball101]

Swannee

Well. I am obviously not a pro player. However I played the swannee and finished deep into the tournament. I was handed an envelope with cash in it as soon as I was knocked out of the tournament. There was no waiting around for my money. This was started as a tournament to honor jay Swanson. It needs to be kept that way and I have played in every one of them that I have been able too. The tournaments have always been run well and pay outs have always been on the spot. If you don't like the payouts or that csi takes money out of the pot then don't play in it. I've always enjoyed the tournament and I thank mark and csi for holding the tournament.