I think I've seen Hoppe swipe in both directions as well. One of the advantages of a sidearm stroke.
swipe/swoop to get more english
- Thread starter bbb
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I think I've seen Hoppe swipe in both directions as well. One of the advantages of a sidearm stroke.
You are right, but I tried to pay careful attention to where the CB hit the rail on every shot. That's what I meant by having to really work on the aiming point. The few times I felt I got extra english on the ball I am pretty sure I basically split the CB with the point of the diamond.
OK, I went down and shot numerous shots using the CB swiping stroke. At first I did terrible, either missing the diamond or miscuing or actually missing the entire CB. This is a very odd feeling way of stroking the ball to me, so I have a hard time committing to both sweeping the tip and following through at the same time. Eventually I got several good results.
This one missed the point of the diamond by maybe a 1/4", but the action on the ball was spectacular, at least by my standards and ability. It hit the short rail to my left a full diamond from the pocket, my best effort so far. Maybe somebody can tell me by looking at the chalk mark on the ball just how big of an angle I should be able to get using conventional english. All I know is that I personally couldn't do the same thing with the caliber of stroke that I currently have without swiping the CB.
This one missed the point of the diamond by maybe a 1/4", but the action on the ball was spectacular, at least by my standards and ability. It hit the short rail to my left a full diamond from the pocket, my best effort so far. Maybe somebody can tell me by looking at the chalk mark on the ball just how big of an angle I should be able to get using conventional english. All I know is that I personally couldn't do the same thing with the caliber of stroke that I currently have without swiping the CB.
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that looks like2 to 2 1/2 tips english with 3 tips being about the most you can get without miscueing
if you shoot perpendicular into the long rail with the corner pocket at your left from 3 diamonds up from the corner (ie one diamond from side pocket) into the opposite 3rd diomond you should be able to get the cue ball to go 2 to 2 1/2 diamnds to your left
one diamond for each tip english
medium speed
since you have a target on the rempe ball
try hitting the same spot with your straight ahead stroke starting at the same spot using about the same speed
what happens???
how close were you from hitting the same spot??
i am not an instructor
if you shoot perpendicular into the long rail with the corner pocket at your left from 3 diamonds up from the corner (ie one diamond from side pocket) into the opposite 3rd diomond you should be able to get the cue ball to go 2 to 2 1/2 diamnds to your left
one diamond for each tip english
medium speed
since you have a target on the rempe ball
try hitting the same spot with your straight ahead stroke starting at the same spot using about the same speed
what happens???
how close were you from hitting the same spot??
i am not an instructor
With the CB sitting on the long string and 3 diamonds away from the corner pocket, best I can get with a straight stoke is a little over two diamonds. Using the swipe I can drop the CB in the corner pocket to my left. I'm getting the hang of it now. For me it is definitely not a movement initiated at contact, I am committing to the stroke from the get-go. Feels like extreme backhand english, but the contact just feels different to my hands. Maybe I'm just kidding myself about the feel thing, but not about the actual results. Definitely more spin, at least for me.
I'm gonna be playing with this, it's fun and feels real artistic. Pool should be fun, it's not all about winning the game.
BTW I'm not an instructor, either. I usually try to stay out of here as has been requested, but when I saw where this thread was going, I didn't feel the same respect was being shown toward the students. Just when I thought it was safe to go back into the water, I come on here and see the sharks circling around one of their own. A pity it is, a real pity.
I'm pretty sure that any great scientist will tell you that you can spin a ball more by swiping at it than you can by punching straight through it, even if contacting the ball at the same point.
I thought it was common knowledge amongst good pool players that you can exaggerate the amount of spin with some wrist action, no?
I don't think any scientist would say such a thing without knowing a great deal more about the situation. Billiards is not ping pong or tennis.
Many top players believe that common belief -- not knowledge -- is false. Can you demonstrate the usefulness of wrist action?
Absolutely.
(((Satori)))...Well then post up a video demonstrating that. Be sure to have a close up of your tip swiping the CB, and then some kind of representative outcome of how the CB comes off the rail...using a normal english stroke, and then the "swoop". I'm betting you cannot show something drastically different...just like Bob said.
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
I will look into this.
Can someone explain how to do this on an I phone.
How much are you betting btw?
Forget an I phone...find a video camera and tripod. Have someone else record you, so they can do closeups on the CB, and zoom out to show spin effects after striking a rail. Bet whatever you're comfortable losing! 
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Forget an I phone...find a video camera and tripod. Have someone else record you, so they can do closeups on the CB, and zoom out to show spin effects after striking a rail. Bet whatever you're comfortable losing!
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
I will use a clean red circle placed on the head string one diamond out. Stroke straight down the head string with one tip of english and record the results of what diamond it contacts on the near rail after rebound (one diamond). I will show the chalk mark to you so you will be clear on where I struck the cue ball.
I will then repeat the process using a different stroke and the same process showing you the chalk mark. I will bet you I can reach 1 1/2 diamonds.
Want to bet? $500 posted
When you do the demo, it has to be clear and convincing. I can video a demo that demonstrates draw with a level stroke and hitting the cue ball at or above center. Of course I don't really hit the ball above center -- I lift my elbow at the last moment. Similarly, unless you control -- in a way the viewer can see -- the important parts of your demonstration, it is not convincing.
Edited to add that the red circle will be placed at center cue ball for reference of the chalk mark.
I'm also a C player and can get almost get to the diamond past the side pocket consistently using extreme left and the straight and reliable pendulum stroke.
Just because you think you can do something doesn't mean it's something you should do. Accuracy and consistency are much more important that any of the purported improvements that techniques based on anecdotal evidence promise.
It's sad and disappointing there is so much crap out there that it's hard for a student to figure out which to learn and which to throw away. It's even worse when you consider that this technique has been clearly discredited in this thread, yet there are those that still hold onto the concept.
Be sure to have the same speed on both shots which can be noted by how far the cue ball goes.
But I don't understand your setup. If I shoot along the head string I can make the cue ball move over a lot more than one diamond in it's return trip across the table. Are you using just a little spin?
One other thing: the experiment has to be set up carefully and explicitly enough that others -- even skeptics -- can repeat the experiment and get the same result.
Yes, my bad, it is 1/2 tip I was using. The amount of english is the same (as indicated by the chalk mark), the speed is the same, the difference is the stroke.
I'm quite certain you can do this experiment on your own and see the results.
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What exactly was your experiment?
You'll see this in players that play other sports besides just pool
Yes, the "wrist flick" is the hidden power catalyst. I was showing some players this a couple of days ago on a straight in shot, making it spin for up to a minute in the same spot the object ball was in. This is done with the wrist, it's not possible to make the cue ball spin this much without the wrist/fingers to some extent (for me anyway).
I know the "pendulum stroke" is talked about a lot and used by players on this forum, however, many of the best players I've been around "cock" their wrist slightly and pre set it ahead so they have a release that produces more acceleration than just an "arm stroke". You'll see this in most games, even throwing darts, and shooting baskets.
Johnny Archer, Earl Stickland and Shane V. all do this in slightly different ways. I do it as well, and use more of a tennis/golf grip to maximize my wrist action - this is from growing up playing tennis as well as pool in my younger years. The technique only works if you pre cock your wrist, I recommend from your hand on your hip to the TIP level with your eyes as a reference point.
You'll see this in players that play other sports besides just pool because they "real eyes" the advantage to the wrist/hand/fingers in any type stroke.
'The Wrist/Hand/Fingers are the Teacher'
Yes, the "wrist flick" is the hidden power catalyst. I was showing some players this a couple of days ago on a straight in shot, making it spin for up to a minute in the same spot the object ball was in. This is done with the wrist, it's not possible to make the cue ball spin this much without the wrist/fingers to some extent (for me anyway).
I know the "pendulum stroke" is talked about a lot and used by players on this forum, however, many of the best players I've been around "cock" their wrist slightly and pre set it ahead so they have a release that produces more acceleration than just an "arm stroke". You'll see this in most games, even throwing darts, and shooting baskets.
Johnny Archer, Earl Stickland and Shane V. all do this in slightly different ways. I do it as well, and use more of a tennis/golf grip to maximize my wrist action - this is from growing up playing tennis as well as pool in my younger years. The technique only works if you pre cock your wrist, I recommend from your hand on your hip to the TIP level with your eyes as a reference point.
You'll see this in players that play other sports besides just pool because they "real eyes" the advantage to the wrist/hand/fingers in any type stroke.
'The Wrist/Hand/Fingers are the Teacher'
You're a C player and you get up on your high horse?? WHAT A JOKE YOU ARE! Well, heck, you can't even get out of your own way on a pool table and you stand there in judgement of us all. How pathetic.
I am the former President of the WPBA, a recipient of the BCA President's award, a former touring pro on the WPBA tour for a couple of decades, and particularly when we had one tournament per month, living out of a suitcase, traveling around the country and playing day and night. I was ranked in the top 16 for several years and have had several top 10 tournament finishes, including a second place finish. And that's just on the pro tour. I've won many regional and local events over the years.
I have trained several of the instructors of the PBIA, some may have crossed your path and met with your 'high' standards.
I have trained actors for feature films and choreographed sequences for famous films such as 'Carlito's Way' and worked day and night for three weeks with Al Pacino.
I have taught probably about a thousand or more players over the years.
I was the North American representative and Executive Board Member of the World Pool Billiard Associaion for 4 years.
So what have you done for our industry lately, other than falsely accusing accomplished individuals of selling snake oil?
If you are the type who has an obsessive need to see documented proof for everything you see and do, then fine, that's your thing, but realize that is YOUR limitation and not the limitations of others.
Now please crawl back in the smelly hole you crawled out of.
Oh, and here's a novel idea: Why don't you stop blaming us for your inability to shoot straight and spend some decent time practicing? And start acting like an adult and take responsibilty for your own game.
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