makes perfect sense to me,,,,,,,,
Taper Roll ???
- Thread starter poolhustler
- Start date
makes perfect sense to me,,,,,,,,
Knock the joint off center by a few thou. There will be wobble. You describe perfection, which is in my opinion and experience, very rarely met & never repeatable. I'd go as far as to say it's an accident when it happens, even though it is the standard that you may be striving for. I say accident because you likely can't do it again, and again, and again. Even if your machining was perfect, you have to factor in the wood being wood, meaning shrinkage & swelling with humidity at an uneven rate, as well as your finish. Who puts on finish, sands it, then polishes it to perfect equal thickness 360 degrees the entire length of the cue? Nobody. If we were building cues out of a stable metal like titanium, then perfection (within reason) could be achieved & repeated. But wood simply distorts too much and no human hand is capable of consistently finishing wood out to a perfect dimension. Therefore, pretty much every cue has a "taper roll" to an extent, even if a tiny bit.
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Ding, ding, ding, I think we have a winner. I can easily machine wood on my lathe to half-a-thou concentricity
- anyone think it will stay there?
FWIW - taper roll actually explains why a cue with any thing other
than a perfectly uniform conical taper will not have all points
in contact with the bed of a table when rolled like your grandma's
rolling pin would.
The fact that it looks a lot like non-perfectly-concentric rolling behavior is secondary.
Dale
And if only you could operate the search function - you could have been
enlightened days ago.
Did I mention this forum has a search function?
Dale
thanks for the advice on the search function,,,,,,I used it, on your name actually,,,,,and realized you have been on this site for 5 years or so , and knew everything there was to know right off the bat,,,,,,,,
did I ever say whatever you "professionals" call taper roll does not exist?
Nope,,,,,
did I say sellers use it to convince buyers to buy crooked cues?
Yep,,,,,,,
Nothing else,,,,,,
I've stated my credentials to say what I say,,,,,all you've said is that you think you are smarter than me because you repair pool cues,,,,,, hmm,,,,,can you make a living doing that?
Relax a little,,,,,,this game is a hobby,,,,,,,,
I have to agree with you completely, and it is caused by not having enough knowledge to speak and add something to a confusing subject, and some are just attempting to pass something off in a dishonest manner.
I think that forum member qbilder has given an excellent explanation concerning the OP's question, I think people who did not take the time to read his post above in this thread should do so what he said is great food for thought.
JIMO
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I completely agree Craig,,,,,,
dave sutton
Banned
Can I do a search for the search function.
And you can see these minute things when you roll them on a pool table?? Get real dude!
What exactly is "taper roll" ???
There is no such thing... The taper of a cylindrical object does not create a wobble when rolled or spun. no ****in shaft or cue is perfect! but if it wobbles when its rolled it will be apparent to most people just how not perfect it is or isn't. Good god! how tough is this?
There is no such thing... The taper of a cylindrical object does not create a wobble when rolled or spun. no ****in shaft or cue is perfect! but if it wobbles when its rolled it will be apparent to most people just how not perfect it is or isn't. Good god! how tough is this?
Never said I was smarter, tho it would seem I read a lot better.
How exactly did you come to the conclusion that I am someone who
"repairs" cues.
Which part of the fact that I already was knowledgeable before there was
an AZB has you so mystified?
Dale
Jay, I realize you know your beans when it comes to cues, but...
A cylinder, by definition has no taper - ie - grandma's rolling pin.
Cues, typically, have sections that taper(are conical) - many
cue butts and shafts have varying degrees of taper along different
sections of their length.
Rolling something like this to determine "straightness" can be promlematical
at best. The fact that 'taper' as in 'pro taper' is often used to describe
what is actually a lack of taper doesn't help in discussing it either.
Taper roll...
Any butt with a "compound" taper, when rolled on a table, will
have sections that are not in contact with the table. Any cue with
a 'pro taper' section on the shaft, will also have this phenom.
I can't tell you the number of times I've seen cue detectives with their
noses on the bed of a pool table like some kind of bloodhound, searching
for sections where light is visible between the cue and the table.
That is taper roll - it does not indicate the cue is warped.
A similar effect can be observed when a cue/butt that also is not warped,
but IS not perfectly concentric, is rolled.
Dale
taper roll or warped
I think taper roll and warpness are 2 different things. I roll a shaft and it has light underneath, as long as it dosent wobble and the light beneath stays in the same spot and dosent increase, then to me it is straight with a slight taper variance from one end of the shaft to the other end of the shaft. If I have a butt that is off only .003 and a shaft that is off only .003 and then factor in a pin off only .003, when put together the irregularity of concentricity has gotten multipled many fold. To me the butt is dead straight as my eyes cant see that small a movement, the shaft is also dead straight to me but may show some roll off once cue is full assembled. I want a straight butt and a shaft that dosent wobble uncontrollably. If you can shoot, you can shoot with a crooked bar cue. The problem comes in where sellers are calling shafts with wobble a taper roll. To me if shaft wobbles it is slightly warped. Shaft can have taper roll and be dead straight. Shafts are thin and absorb the impact of shooting, they will get off eventually, but I want the butt section to stay true. Sellers wanting to get as much as they can , call slight wobble a taper roll. It sounds prettier and fetches a higher price. Just my thoughts
I think taper roll and warpness are 2 different things. I roll a shaft and it has light underneath, as long as it dosent wobble and the light beneath stays in the same spot and dosent increase, then to me it is straight with a slight taper variance from one end of the shaft to the other end of the shaft. If I have a butt that is off only .003 and a shaft that is off only .003 and then factor in a pin off only .003, when put together the irregularity of concentricity has gotten multipled many fold. To me the butt is dead straight as my eyes cant see that small a movement, the shaft is also dead straight to me but may show some roll off once cue is full assembled. I want a straight butt and a shaft that dosent wobble uncontrollably. If you can shoot, you can shoot with a crooked bar cue. The problem comes in where sellers are calling shafts with wobble a taper roll. To me if shaft wobbles it is slightly warped. Shaft can have taper roll and be dead straight. Shafts are thin and absorb the impact of shooting, they will get off eventually, but I want the butt section to stay true. Sellers wanting to get as much as they can , call slight wobble a taper roll. It sounds prettier and fetches a higher price. Just my thoughts
Dale,
If the amount of light or distance from the table changes when it is rolled, that is only caused by one of two things or both combined.
Either it is not round or it is not straight. As I said earlier, If it is both round and straight it can all the different tapers in the world and will not wobble when rolled or spun. This is because at any given point along its length when rolling or spinning that point will always be equidistant from the center-line, Thus equidistant from the table (not moving up and down) If it is not round it will have a cam effect. If it is not straight it will also have a cam effect aka wobble.
Rolling or spinning is an excellent method of evaluating how much a cue has moved/warped/bent. If it is round and straight it can not wobble.
There is no such thing as "taper roll"
Sorry Charlie, taper roll is just exactly as I described it, and I have seen
people who assume it indicates a problem.
IMHO - you, and many others are mis-using the term 'taper roll' for
what might more accurately be called something like "taper wobble".
A cue with taper roll does NOT appear to wobble when rolled.
A cue that is straight, but not concentric, does.
Since I don't buy cues, nor take trade-ins I haven't encountered
the 'taper roll' that is actually a woble discussion.
Are there really leigions of unscrupulous cue wheeler dealers out there
preying on an uninformed demographic of cue consumers?
Dale
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Sorry Dale,
But when a person rolls a cue on a table to exam it's condition, Since many cues will have a bit of wobble (for the reasons I mentioned in detail above) the seller will quite often say "its straight, that's just the way it was tapered"...Taper roll began. The term has widely been used to excuse some issues as something other than what is truly a slight warp or out of round condition. If you couldn't detect it when rolling it, it would never have become the issue of scruples that it has.
Hi,
Eric mentioned in one of the early posts that sanding too much could cause an ex-centricity or pancaking effect, thus one seeing taper roll by a spectator. I agree with that as being one cause for taper roll.
That being said, I would like to share my experience in the area of building a shaft and my observation concerning the pancaking phenomena.
I have made shafts on 4 different machine, CNC, 2 separate lathes, and finally a saw tapering machine. Before going to the saw machine with variable controlled speeds for linear travel and lathe speeds I was using routers. The vertical, horizontal, or vertical with wing cutter always left an RMS finish whereby there was some type of fine line or slight swirl on the shaft that had to be sanded.
I even went so far as to install a direct drive variable speed dc motor directly coupled to the lead screw on my atlas but alas the fine lines got better but were still there and had to be sanded aggressively.
After going to the saw machine and dialing in my feeds and speeds, I have never pancaked sanded a shaft again. Thus the taper roll has never appeared in my shop again as my shafts coming off the saw are incredible and need very little sanding.
Since I use a shaft pin centering device for turning my shafts, the face is always 90 degrees perpendicular to my x-axis from the get go when I tap my threads. I have never seen taper roll since installing that method. When I was turning in my shaft to the butt on the lathe I used to see it from time to time.
Just my humble observation.
Rick G
Even with the DC variable controlled speed on the lead screw on my atlas, I could never achieve RMS finish that did not require aggressive sanding when using a router for cutting shafts. That kind of sanding also makes your shaft contour geometry go out the window for repeteability of you taper.
After switching to a saw cutting machine with dc variable control over feeds & speeds and nailing shaft concentricity with our center pin method, the only taper roll I see is if a shaft does warp. Not very often. Only 2 in the last 88. Thats the wood misbehaving not methodology. I will confess that on the last one we had a Question mark on that shaft when it went from dowel to taper and I ignored it during shaft selection. No more question marks only go or no go from now on when the first taper is turned and one more taper cut. I hate when I do that to myself!:banghead:
Eric mentioned in one of the early posts that sanding too much could cause an ex-centricity or pancaking effect, thus one seeing taper roll by a spectator. I agree with that as being one cause for taper roll.
That being said, I would like to share my experience in the area of building a shaft and my observation concerning the pancaking phenomena.
I have made shafts on 4 different machine, CNC, 2 separate lathes, and finally a saw tapering machine. Before going to the saw machine with variable controlled speeds for linear travel and lathe speeds I was using routers. The vertical, horizontal, or vertical with wing cutter always left an RMS finish whereby there was some type of fine line or slight swirl on the shaft that had to be sanded.
I even went so far as to install a direct drive variable speed dc motor directly coupled to the lead screw on my atlas but alas the fine lines got better but were still there and had to be sanded aggressively.
After going to the saw machine and dialing in my feeds and speeds, I have never pancaked sanded a shaft again. Thus the taper roll has never appeared in my shop again as my shafts coming off the saw are incredible and need very little sanding.
Since I use a shaft pin centering device for turning my shafts, the face is always 90 degrees perpendicular to my x-axis from the get go when I tap my threads. I have never seen taper roll since installing that method. When I was turning in my shaft to the butt on the lathe I used to see it from time to time.
Just my humble observation.
Rick G
Even with the DC variable controlled speed on the lead screw on my atlas, I could never achieve RMS finish that did not require aggressive sanding when using a router for cutting shafts. That kind of sanding also makes your shaft contour geometry go out the window for repeteability of you taper.
After switching to a saw cutting machine with dc variable control over feeds & speeds and nailing shaft concentricity with our center pin method, the only taper roll I see is if a shaft does warp. Not very often. Only 2 in the last 88. Thats the wood misbehaving not methodology. I will confess that on the last one we had a Question mark on that shaft when it went from dowel to taper and I ignored it during shaft selection. No more question marks only go or no go from now on when the first taper is turned and one more taper cut. I hate when I do that to myself!:banghead:
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