TAR 25 and the forums

you guys need to relax, already! its not like neil sharked the guy at the table or during the match. i believe neil did not even play him and neil may have said it a hour prior to the guys first match. what neil did is no big deal.
 
Allen...You obviously have some grudge that you choose to carry on, and on, and on...about Neil. Just because he makes an unpopular post doesn't mean he has "a lot to learn about ethics, integrity and sportsmanship". You don't know him at all...and I know him quite well. Neil is a good guy who contributes a LOT here. Try to do the same.

Scott Lee ~ something about throwing the baby out with the bathwater
www.poolknowledge.com

PoolSharkAllen said:
Neil has a lot to learn about ethics, integrity and sportsmanship.
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The pure and simple fact is that, among both pro’s and amateurs, there have always been those who carry themselves with grace and those that don’t! Always been that way and will likely remain so despite all the indignation of the holier than thou’s.
Justin’s vision for TAR simply is to exclude those that don’t adhere to gentlemen’s conduct. Is it doable? Certainly. Is it admirable? Again, certainly. Will it enhance his product? I believe so. Is it good for pool? Absolutely! Will it (or the indignation noted above) eliminate the cheaters, scoundrels, sharkers, etc from the game?... not by the count of one in my opinion.
This in no way is intended to be a comment on sharking, cheating, etc.... good, bad or indifferent, it's been part of this game and is likely to remain so.

Only an opinion,
Bob Hyde
 
what would you guys say if that guy went up to neil and said "he was going to repeat and be 2x champion and he is the favorite"?
 
Scott Lee said:
Allen...You obviously have some grudge that you choose to carry on, and on, and on...about Neil. Just because he makes an unpopular post doesn't mean he has "a lot to learn about ethics, integrity and sportsmanship". You don't know him at all...and I know him quite well.
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Scott,
Your being a friend of Neil's is clearly clouding your judgement. Neil's post shown below is an example of blatantly unsportsmanlike conduct. Instead of condemning Neil's conduct you're apparently condoning it.

I stand by my comments that Neil has a lot to learn about ethics, integrity and especially sportsmanship.

Originally Posted by Neil
You aren't going to stop all the sharking, it starts the second there might be a match. It's all head games. And, I'm not against a little head games.

Once had a yearly 14.1 tournament around here. Most of us played pretty even, a few a little better but still beatable. Dan Whitten (yes, cue case Whitten) used to live up here. He won it one year. The next year I was already there when he arrived. He had been practicing a lot, and was ready to defend his title. He came in with that look in his eye. I saw it, and walked right up to him. I told him I hope I drew him right away. He looked at me, and asked "why?" I then told him "well, you won it last year." He then replied, "yes, so why would you want to play me first?" I then told him "Well, Dan, we all play pretty even, you won last year. The odds of you winning two years in a row have to be astronomical! I figure you have the worse odds here of winning again!" Needless to say, poor Dan went two and out that year. Am I a cheater for playing a little mind game on him? I don't think so. He lost because he thought about what I said, and it made sense to him. So, he went from a winning confidence to a losing mentality.​
 
champ2107 said:
what would you guys say if that guy went up to neil and said "he was going to repeat and be 2x champion and he is the favorite"?
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For me, I would say exactly the same things I have been saying. Although, once Neil said what he said that might have been a perfect comeback line and walk away.

If Whitten had said it first to Neil, Neil's line might have been a perfect comeback and walk away.

As said earlier, sometimes you have to retaliate if someone wants to play that "mental" game just to keep your focus and not being taken advantage of.

This is how the woofing starts...and became the focus of TAR #25. It's just that no one could walk away except to the bathroom. And this is how the focus was not on the play and AZ Forums are not about pool anymore. :grin:
Have we evolved this thread to talking about pool yet? :grin:

So, just walk away, sharpen your stick, and apply the characteristics of the real mental game.
  • Controlling what you can control
  • Combating anxiety
  • Thinking of the good things you can do
  • Bolstering your confidence
  • Playing within your limitations
  • Strategy
  • etc
 
PoolSharkAllen said:
Scott,
Your being a friend of Neil's is clearly clouding your judgement. Neil's post shown below is an example of blatantly unsportsmanlike conduct. Instead of condemning Neil's conduct you're apparently condoning it.

I stand by my comments that Neil has a lot to learn about ethics, integrity and especially sportsmanship.

Originally Posted by Neil
You aren't going to stop all the sharking, it starts the second there might be a match. It's all head games. And, I'm not against a little head games.

Once had a yearly 14.1 tournament around here. Most of us played pretty even, a few a little better but still beatable. Dan Whitten (yes, cue case Whitten) used to live up here. He won it one year. The next year I was already there when he arrived. He had been practicing a lot, and was ready to defend his title. He came in with that look in his eye. I saw it, and walked right up to him. I told him I hope I drew him right away. He looked at me, and asked "why?" I then told him "well, you won it last year." He then replied, "yes, so why would you want to play me first?" I then told him "Well, Dan, we all play pretty even, you won last year. The odds of you winning two years in a row have to be astronomical! I figure you have the worse odds here of winning again!" Needless to say, poor Dan went two and out that year. Am I a cheater for playing a little mind game on him? I don't think so. He lost because he thought about what I said, and it made sense to him. So, he went from a winning confidence to a losing mentality.​
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PSA,
You are constantly "hounding" people on this forum. If it's not John Barton, or Neil or me, it's someone else who you decide to follow around and incite them into responding.

You contribute nothing of value to this forum. You are a nuisance to this forum, I am sad to say.

If you change your ways, I will retract this statement. (Start posting about things that are of value to the forum.) I don't like saying this about anyone, including you.
 
Thanks Neil

Neil, thanks for the lesson.
It is nice to know that I am not the only one who at times get worried.
Playing for over 50 years, I've seen my share of sharking while I am playing a game.
Knowing that your opponent can't bank and leaving him a bank is smart.

I have been playing a lot lately, but not practicing.
I have been winning my share of tournaments here at home.
I do have a bad habit though, I do not play safe, except in 14.1.

I do admire the safes that I get stuck behind and love to shoot my way out of them however.
It is just me being stubborn and stupid.
In my younger years, I shot at everything.

I met Charlie Peterson (show me a shot I can't make) when I was 12 at Cocharans when he was on tour.
He said Barney there isn't a shot you can't make.

Once again thanks for the lesson Neil, and I will start practicing more thanks to you. :thumbup:
 
Hey Neil,

Could you sum this up into a few key sentences? Just the cliff notes. I really want to understand you but can't focus long enough to read this.

Thanks,
Mark

Neil said:
Only because YOU asked, Barney. I thought about just p.m.'ing you, to avoid the obvious trolls like poolsharkallen, but some others just might learn something.

Once you get your fundamentals down, and know how to play the game, and can run out, the game becomes more of what's going on in your head than anything else. Make a ball and get shape on the next one, no big deal. Do it with pressure, makes it harder. What is pressure other than a mind game you play with yourself?? What makes a routine shot harder when you are hill-hill and live-streamed?? The balls haven't changed, it's the same shot you shot 100 times in a row in practice. What makes it hard now? Your own mind.

What makes you super confident one day, able to play two balls above your normal speed, and the next week you are right back struggling? The table hasn't changed, same balls, same cue. But....you have a different mind set. You have heard the phrase that pool at the upper levels is 90% mental and 10% physical. I don't quite agree with the numbers, but the premise is very true.

You are in a match, you have a shot that is a little difficult to make, but easy to get a great safe off of. Which do you choose? Why, you choose the safe, of course. Why? Isn't that cheating to make it difficult for your opponent? Just play the table, if you miss, you know what to practice. Well, that sounds all well and good, but we are trying to win, and using an edge of playing a safety when applicable is the smart way to play. You don't want your opponent coming to the table full of confidence because you just blew a shot, you want him coming to the table apprehensive on whether or not he is going to be giving up ball in hand to you. You want to lessen his mental confidence so you play the safety. 3-4 times of having to kick every time he gets to the table will mess with his head, and thereby mess with his game.

How many times have you heard someone say "I finally have a shot, and now I don't know what to do with it!" You practice before a tournament to build up your confidence on being able to do what you need to do when you need to do it. We all play our best when we are full of confidence.

In the example I gave of Dan, Dan was a little better than most of us. We all played even, but he would win most of the time. So, when I saw him come into the room, chest out, killer look in his eyes, full of confidence, yes, I was a little bit scared. But, I knew I had to do something about that, or I would play scared against whomever I drew. I wan't there to just play, I was there to win it all. (never did over the years, best was 2nd 3 times, lost one year by one lousy ball! OUCH!!!)

So, my talking to him was more of reinforcing my thinking of NOT being afraid of his game today, than it was of taking away his confidence. Two birds with one stone. It pumped me up, and destroyed him. Now, why did it destroy him? It did because his mental state wasn't strong enough. I essentially put a 4 rail kick in front of him, and he folded. He had practiced enough on making balls, but not enough on the mental side of the game.

As soon as he was confronted with a mental problem, that being the actual odds of him winning two years in a row, he focused on something irrelevant instead of his own abilities. He then doubted his abilities as being enough to win, and started thinking that he couldn't win no matter what he did. His play showed it. I talked to him at least two hours before the tournament even started. He spent those two hours defeating himself instead of reinforcing his mental state. I never did play him, but was told that he played real bad.

Kid I cheat him? Not at all. He cheated himself, because he wasn't properly prepared for what might come up. No different than someone playing a bunch of safes on him in a game. Was I prepared when I got there? Much more so than Dan was that year. Yes, I got a little tinge of fear when I saw his eyes. But, I dealt with it instead of letting it destroy me.

There's tons of people that can run a rack of pool. That's all it takes, right? Make the ball and get shape on the next one, and continue until they are all gone. Yet, most of those same people can run one, MAYBE two racks, and then they are done. Why?? Because of what's going on between their ears. They have the ability to run more, but don't believe they can. So, their subconscious short circuits their body movements and makes them screw up somewhere. Thereby confirming their beliefs that they aren't that good. The champions, the naturals, don't short-circuit themselves. They practice until they can do something repeatedly, and then just keep repeating it. They believe in themselves. They don't look for excuses to lose just because they don't believe in themselves enough to think that they belong in a higher category. They take what they have learned and just do it over and over again.

Far too often, we want to work on the physical part of pool and totally dismiss the mental side of pool. That's all well and good for beginners. But, once you reach a certain ability, you HAVE to start adding the mental side of the game to your practice. Too often we want to say "he sharked me! He's cheating!". That, when you really boil it down, is a bunch of doohickey. All it is saying is that you have totally ignored the mental side of the game, and as soon as it comes into play, and you dog it, you want to put the blame on someone else instead of where it rightly belongs, which is squarely, 100% on you. It's so much easier to blame someone else for our shortcomings than to actually deal with them ourselves.

Last night I was watching a stream of some fellow Mi. players. Rick was down on a ball, tough shot, and you could tell he was a sec. or two away from pulling the trigger, when someone walked right along the side of the table. He was prepared mentally. He got up off the ball, refocused, and got back down. Again, ready to pull the trigger, someone else walks right along the side of the table and almost fell onto the table. Again, Rick got up. He stood there a minute at least, you know he was thinking "you got to be kidding me!" He then realized he had totally lost focus, and went over to his chair for a minute to regather his thoughts. He didn't let it destroy him. He did what he had to do to overcome this mental distraction. He then came back to the table and took his time again, and then finally shot the shot. That showed me a lot about his mental state when playing. He didn't use it as an easy excuse to miss the tough shot, instead, he dealt with it as he should have. He didn't get upset, he took time to refocus on the task at hand.

You stated that taking advantage of someone weakness is wrong. I disagree. If you know your opponent is a poor banker, and you leave him a bank shot, are you a bad person for taking advantage of his weakness?? If you know he has trouble kicking, are you a bad person for leaving him a kick? If you test someones mental strength, and they fold, are you then a bad person? I think not.

When faced with a tough shot, there are two things you can do. You can talk yourself into making it, or you can talk yourself out of making it. It's all in your head. Same thing with someone doing a little sharking on you. You can let it bother you, or you can chose to not let it bother you. It's up to you, and you alone. If you choose to let it bother you, it's not his fault, it's YOUR fault, and your choice. Deal with what you chose.

I seen many accuse someone else of sharking when their opponent wasn't sharking them at all. Just because someone moves, doesn't mean they are intentionally trying to distract you. If you are getting sharked, start looking at WHY it is sharking you. Obviously, your focus is in the wrong area. Many times, once someone gets sharked, you will see them start to see sharking everytime they get to the table. Their focus is now on getting sharked, so they see it everywhere. Their mental game needs a lot of work and is nowhere's near where it should be.

I want to add one thing to this- I do NOT intentionally shark someone to test them. After my shot, I go off to my chair and just wait my turn. Have I ever sharked someone? Of course I have. If someone is obviously going out of their way to shark me, I'm not above giving it back to them. However, it won't be so obvious as moving in their line of sight. I might just tell them that everytime they miss, they are turning their wrist in. That usually will get them thinking about something they shouldn't be thinking about, and I can just sit back and say to myself "mess with me, ha, deal with that sucker!"
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Neil said:
I assume you aren't serious. But, just in case you are, read it just a paragraph at a time.
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He might be, especially if he's a short-rack rotation player. After all, they can only focus on one or two balls at a time, in rotation -- not the entire rack or subsequent racks. "9-ball. The Cliff Notes of the cue sports."

D'oh! :p :D

J/K, obviously,
-Sean <-- this thread needs it
 
Neil said:
...Once you get your fundamentals down, ...and I can just sit back and say to myself "mess with me, ha, deal with that sucker!"
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Thanks Neil for showing us that you really are a good instructor. I was a bit worried about that. :thumbup:
 
Wags said:
Thanks Neil for showing us that you really are a good instructor. I was a bit worried about that. :thumbup:
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Actually his cuetable discussion are quite good... if you control the cue better that SVB. Sorry Neil but some of you ideas or shot selections are fsr fetched at best. JMHHO
 
I disagree with the assessment that the members here are more interested in discussing the bad behavior than the pool and they should be ashamed of themselves. I doubt you can find a more serious and interested group of spectators than those you would find here.

It seems to me the reason all the sharking is being talked about is precisely because it detracted from the quality of the play. Anyone serious enough to even find out about the stream and then go pay for it are true fans of the game, and want to see and then talk about the great pool that was played.

I understand the idea that a "professional" player should be able to fade all the moves but it is only human nature that to an extent it will affect a person's performance. To that extent neither player showed their best game. Justin as well as his viewers want to see the best performance possible from two great players and when sharking affects this everyone is cheated out of what they worked and paid for - the best performance these great players have.

Secondly, even if these two guys should be able to fade all the crap they throw at each other, we the spectators are not quite at that level. So all the poor behavior detracts from our ability to focus on and enjoy the match.

So really, all the discussion about the how these two guys acted doesn't stem from us serious fans not really caring about the play of the game, but precisely because that's what we care about. And it isn't right that we didn't get to see the best performances either because they sharked each other or because they sharked us, the viewers.
 
DogsPlayingPool said:
I disagree with the assessment that the members here are more interested in discussing the bad behavior than the pool and they should be ashamed of themselves. I doubt you can find a more serious and interested group of spectators than those you would find here.

It seems to me the reason all the sharking is being talked about is precisely because it detracted from the quality of the play. Anyone serious enough to even find out about the stream and then go pay for it are true fans of the game, and want to see and then talk about the great pool that was played.

I understand the idea that a "professional" player should be able to fade all the moves but it is only human nature that to an extent it will affect a person's performance. To that extent neither player showed their best game. Justin as well as his viewers want to see the best performance possible from two great players and when sharking affects this everyone is cheated out of what they worked and paid for - the best performance these great players have.

Secondly, even if these two guys should be able to fade all the crap they throw at each other, we the spectators are not quite at that level. So all the poor behavior detracts from our ability to focus on and enjoy the match.

So really, all the discussion about the how these two guys acted doesn't stem from us serious fans not really caring about the play of the game, but precisely because that's what we care about. And it isn't right that we didn't get to see the best performances either because they sharked each other or because they sharked us, the viewers.
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What he said. Great post. Johnnyt
 
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