TAR Podcast #8 - Shane - Fransisco - Shane Talks About His Aiming Method

[Fast Lenny]

I pulled this from last weekends live stream, this is the spot shot I was talking about where I explained how to aim 1 diamond from the side rail and the kitchen line. I shoot center of the shaft to the left edge of the object ball on these shots to make it in the right corner pocket. The first game I needed 2 and the second game shown I needed just the spot shot to win, both times there is a hanger in his hole so if I miss I can lose the game so its a spot shot with a pressure ball that will either make you bare down or lose focus. You still need to stay down and shoot straight through obviously but I am not guessing on where to shoot on the spot shot hoping to make it by feel. Sorry for the poor video but you get the picture, Diamond table with 4.5 inch pockets, not buckets.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKPso1B6nF0

 

[The Chinchilla]

We miss because we are human, a blink of an eye of the lack of focus and you can miss and as the pockets get smaller the percentages go up that you might miss a ball. You will know if you read my other post I said that there are no guarantees you will make every ball just because you know a system and where to aim. You still need to have good mechanics, stay down on the shot, step into the shot correctly so your alignment is right among many other things that go into making a pool ball go into a pocket.

It is working for me, like I said I have 6 years in the poolroom, 1 year with this system so I am a relative new player compared to most and its the biggest jump I have seen in my game and those around me are shocked how someones game can jump up 2-3 balls just like that but its also a good deal of time working on other things too. I still have a long road ahead in reaching my goals in this game but the system sure helped me and probably knocked a few years off reaching that goal. I just think we all need to be a little more open minded in this game, I do not know about other systems but this one is working for me and its tough to argue with results.

Shane is one of the best players in the world, he uses an aiming method-system-guide, whatever you want to call it. I believe many players do and if I went to Derby I might go around with a camera and ask 50 pros if they are feel or system players, we might be surprised. I try to stay out of the aiming system threads and think those who go crazy in those threads should just go out and play pool, its fruitless really to bother because some people will stand firm and go down with the ship, nothing will change their minds because they are closed.

I do not mind explaining what I learned and some people have tried it and saw that it works, its a matter of table time (practice) and getting all the shots down in your memory bank after that. A system is not for everyone, some people just cannot put their minds around it or do not want to take the time to get it just like I am with CTE and some of the other ones out there that I have seen. This one works for me and I do not want to look at other ones and get screwed up or have a headache so I understand how the feel players feel about systems in a way.

To be honest after learning this system my mind is closed because of the results I have seen and knowing it works so I trust it 100%, if you do not trust what your doing 100% then good luck having positive results. If your playing pool and are playing well and improving then keep doing what works for you, if your not getting any better then you should try new things and see if it helps, be open minded and give it a chance. I am not trying to force this method down any of your throats, do what you want and have fun with the game but if you have tried it and see results or that it works then great.

The point of my post is that you can never tease out the proportion of how much a system helps a player, vs how much feel helps him. Maybe a player "uses" a system, but in reality, he uses 90% feel. Maybe he misses when he forces the system aiming point too much. Or maybe vice vera.... we'll never know.... that is the point.

In short, I don't think it is evidence in any way when a strong player uses a system. Maybe he'd pocket even more balls without the system!! We don't know. In essence, if we are going to corroborate a systems effectiveness with strong players using them, why not corroborate their weaknesses by weak players that use them??? Maybe i'm wrong, just my thoughts

 

[champ2107]

Hey Lenny, when you and I play our all-around, you will have to shoot with a slip on ferrule/tip like they put on bar cues. All your shots will be off that thickness

Your so far behind in the understanding of systems that i cant believe im actually acknowledging your post.you need to follow and not post until you have a clue whats going on.

 

[The Chinchilla]

Really, when the chips are down is when they are more likely to use it. Nothing calms the nerves like the feeling of confidence knowing the shot is dead center. Long live PRO-ONE.
P.S. stick to your old school ways, nobody cares.

A lot of people care. What people justifiably get tired of is posters who attempt to run off and discredit players who have actually played and succeeded under loads of pressure.

 

[champ2107]

John,

Please note;...Not trying to violate our fragile "truce", but can you please name ONE top player, who does not revert to 'feel', when the chips are down ?..

All those "systems", go out the window, and they rely on "PURE FEEL" without hesitation... Get me just ONE, to say they don't...(including Darren Appleton)

Not trying to flame, just trying to be realistic...Aiming systems are fine...(for APA 3 players..)..Gives them a goal..

i guess Shane is a pretty good apa 3?

 

[chefjeff]

The point of my post is that you can never tease out the proportion of how much a system helps a player, vs how much feel helps him. Maybe a player "uses" a system, but in reality, he uses 90% feel. Maybe he misses when he forces the system aiming point too much. Or maybe vice vera.... we'll never know.... that is the point.

In short, I don't think it is evidence in any way when a strong player uses a system. Maybe he'd pocket even more balls without the system!! We don't know. In essence, if we are going to corroborate a systems effectiveness with strong players using them, why not corroborate their weaknesses by weak players that use them??? Maybe i'm wrong, just my thoughts

"Feel" is the wrong term for what is happening.

It is "overlearned behavior" that allows a shooter to "thoughtlessly" shoot shots. It isn't "feel," but repetition that makes it SEEM like feel.


Try to get a newbie to "feel" a shot as he shoots it; he can't. Why? He hasn't learned enough about shots to "feel" anything that would help. His feeling don't know pool, thus can't help him. Once he shoots enough shots to have overlearned a good part of his shot routine, he can then pretend he shoots by feel, but still, he isn't; it is overlearning, due to reptition, that allows his unconscious pool to happen successfully.

imho,

Jeff Livingston

 

[Fast Lenny]

"Feel" is the wrong term for what is happening.

It is "overlearned behavior" that allows a shooter to "thoughtlessly" shoot shots. It isn't "feel," but repetition that makes it SEEM like feel.


Try to get a newbie to "feel" a shot as he shoots it; he can't. Why? He hasn't learned enough about shots to "feel" anything that would help. His feeling don't know pool, thus can't help him. Once he shoots enough shots to have overlearned a good part of his shot routine, he can then pretend he shoots by feel, but still, he isn't; it is overlearning, due to reptition, that allows his unconscious pool to happen successfully.

imho,

Jeff Livingston

I agree with you Jeff, perhaps some people know where to hit the ball naturally or find the spot easier and it becomes part of the muscle memory while others like myself need the system to know where to hit the ball and then it becomes automatic so to speak. I am not bashing the natural players at all, its just like cue preferences, I personally do not like the hit of a SW cue, its all about what works for you. Regardless of whatever we all need to put in table time, gambling, tournaments and practice will make you a better player that is 100% fact. Good luck to everyone in their pool journey, all you different people make the game what it is. Later. :wink:

 

[SpiderWebComm]

"Betelgeuse."

"Figawhatever"



;-)

 

[champ2107]

Thanks, Banks. You know, some guys will never get any of that. I watched Gabe Owens at the DCC 14.1 Challenge one year and even with a dozen tries he only got out of the first rack, like once. Nor will they get the point of getting out from behind their keyboards and getting into a tournament. To them it's: big deal, entry fee, random draw. They don't understand the value.

Playing pool in a tournament is a unique experience, unlike playing pool at any other time. The conditions are different, your 
competitors are unknown, as are their skill levels and strategies. There are distractions, there's pressure, and you must adjust to all of this immediately. It's an interesting test of what you think you know. 


Ferinstance, you may think you know how to kick three rails. But under tournament conditions, it really is the acid test. Do you really know how to instantly calculate the path the cue ball must take, the right amount of spin, the right speed, and compensate for the new cushions, cloth, and balls? You either know how to do it, or you don't. Whether you do or not is out there for the whole world to see, and there's no hiding what you can and can't do. At an even more basic level, are the simple shots you think you should be able to make. During a tournament you may learn that there are a whole slew of shots you thought you knew, but can't execute on demand. I'm not talking about really tough shots, I'm talking about shots that, perhaps you thought you could make 10 out of 10, but actually can’t. Maybe going to play in a tournament is like getting dressed in the dark and then you go out into the bright sunlight and discover that you've got socks on that don't match. And so, playing in a tournament can alert you to things you should work on.

A tournament, because of the severity of the test, also let's you see what works and what does not. Tournaments provide you with a great "where the rubber meets the road" venue. Kinda like taking you little hot rod that you've lovingly been tinkering with for a spin on the Mercedes-Benz test track in Stuttgart. A tournament is also an opportunity to see a wide variety of approaches to the game. You get to see shots that you don't play regularly so you can then practice them and make them part of your personal arsenal. That's another great learning opportunity.

Lastly, I think playing in a tournament, imbues you with a sense of 
confidence you can't get any other way. Stepping into "the arena" and 
taking on all comers on a level playing field, so to speak, gives you a very accurate sense of where your game and you yourself as a competitor stand in the universe of pool players.

Of course, like I said, there are some guys that will never get any of that. But for the rest of youze, perhaps you’ll to jump into a tournament in the near future, or at least the next time you have the opportunity. It won't be easy, it might not be cheap, and it will take time, effort, and courage on your part. No, I'm not saying everyone should sign up for the next Open, (though there are some of you that should). I'm saying there are tournaments all over the place that, at some level or another, will let you experience both the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat. More significantly, it will give you a great way to learn so many different but related things. If you don't compete in a tournament now and again, and test yourself and your game, you're cheating yourself.

Lou Figueroa

Wow you write a nice post, very pretty! All i see is a arrogant guy that goes into those tourneys to try and boost his own ego so he go back to the billiard forums and brag that i played this guy and that guy and pretend he is a pool god in his on mind! your an average league player at best, you cant even make shots in 14-1?

 

[cuenut]

It would seem that if a system has legitimacy it should be reproducable without a significant human element (shooter). A robot should be able to be devised to test it whether it is CTE, the Stick Method, etc. In my opinion it all boils down to finding a method that works for you, is easy to understand, and get you to the point where you can hit the tangent point of the object ball that is perpendicular to the center line between the object ball and the pocket, minus throw/spin induced by differing angles/spin of the cueball.

CTE, the Stick Method, etc. may be easier for some players to "visualize" than the ghost ball, as the angle created by the aim is consistent based upon the contact point. You just have to recognize the angle you need before you get down on the shot and then it would be automatic.

I am curious as to what adjustments have to be made when using the Stick method with shafts of different diameter. It seems as though the angle would be different for different diameters?

 

[peteypooldude]

Until a player has dedicated enough time to get real results from a system
they will never understand the feeling of a shot being automatic. I do think it
cuts the learning curb,It wont however work without a straight stroke.
As far as Lou goes,he gets off on being an a$$,and one of the aiming system advocates is no better with their endless ignorance and trolling.I will not call
their name,but they just promote chaos

 

[LAMas]

Aiming the sides of the ferrule to the center and right edge of the OB for cuts to the left

Reverse for cuts to the right.

For a 15 degree cut (not diagramed) aim the center of the shaft at the 3/4 spot between the center of the OB and it's right edge.

Most know that a straight in shot is center of the CB to the center of the OB aim.

Also the 30 degree cut angle is the center of the CB aimed at the right edge (3:00) of the OB.

Since the side of the ferrule aiming gives you a 7-8 degree angle to either side respectively to the outside of the center of the ferrule aim.

That covers, 7, 15, 23, 30 and 38 degree cut angles...you can aim a bit less than the side of the ferrule for angles in between.

If you can divide the ferrule into 7 segements from it's center to it's edge, you can cut every angle from 1 to 37 degrees.:thumbup:

 

[champ2107]

i will make some videos and put an end to all this none sense. Im thinking most of you still dont understand how and what the benefits are to cte system even though the info is out there. You still don't get it and i couldn't care less if you use a system but just stop knocking it until you understand it.

i will show cte <<<< stans version - without giving out information
i will show pro1- without giving out information
i will show shanes system
i will show how reliable a system is on a money shot
i will show shaft/ferrule/taper/diameter means nothing with any system
i will show Shanes system evolve into cte and then into cte << stans version

 

[iusedtoberich]

Your so far behind in the understanding of systems that i cant believe im actually acknowledging your post.you need to follow and not post until you have a clue whats going on.

Actually my post was just a fun post for Lenny, for when we will eventually play. I haven't followed this thread at all, maybe just read 4 posts total in it, after the first page (which I read all of). I might actually put you on ignore. I've never put anyone on ignore before, but I feel like it will be best for my IQ if I no longer read any aiming threads, or posts by aiming zealots.

 

[champ2107]

Actually my post was just a fun post for Lenny, for when we will eventually play. I haven't followed this thread at all, maybe just read 4 posts total in it, after the first page (which I read all of). I might actually put you on ignore. I've never put anyone on ignore before, but I feel like it will be best for my IQ if I no longer read any aiming threads, or posts by aiming zealots.

please do put me on ignore and if you really want to hurt my feelings, red rep me too that tells me a lot about your thought process and would explain your opinions you have shared in this thread along with a couple other people! too live a life as simply as you do with no care in the world of advancing yourself or trying to understand advancement is a special gift! i wish i was more like you and good luck! :thumbup:

 

[AtLarge]

Same here lenny when i learned this in the midwest they called it S.A.M. stick aiming method.

The nutzzzzz,
-Greyghost

Hi, Greyghost. What you probably heard of as "SAM" is a fractional-ball aiming method where the reference aims are a full-ball aim, a 3/4-ball aim, a half-ball aim, a 1/4-ball aim, and possibly one or two more for real thin cuts. This was taught by Hal Houle years ago, and I think it is still part of the Cue-Tech pool schools' teachings.

The subject of this thread -- Shane's and Fast Lenny's stick-aiming method -- uses different references (edges and center of stick to edge of OB).

The center-of-stick-to-edge-of-OB reference aim (half-ball aim for 30-degree cut) is common to both methods.

 

[AtLarge]

"Feel" is the wrong term for what is happening.

It is "overlearned behavior" that allows a shooter to "thoughtlessly" shoot shots. It isn't "feel," but repetition that makes it SEEM like feel.


Try to get a newbie to "feel" a shot as he shoots it; he can't. Why? He hasn't learned enough about shots to "feel" anything that would help. His feeling don't know pool, thus can't help him. Once he shoots enough shots to have overlearned a good part of his shot routine, he can then pretend he shoots by feel, but still, he isn't; it is overlearning, due to reptition, that allows his unconscious pool to happen successfully.

imho,

Jeff Livingston

Thanks, Jeff, for bringing this "overlearned behavior" terminology to our attention. I just read a bit more about it online, and it sounds like you are right on.

 

[AtLarge]

... you cant even make shots in 14-1?

Hey, now, don't go insulting that 14.1 stuff; some of us like the idea of any ball in any pocket. Makes pool real simple. :wink:

 

[AtLarge]

... I am curious as to what adjustments have to be made when using the Stick method with shafts of different diameter. It seems as though the angle would be different for different diameters?

Yes, the stick diameter can have an effect. To see this easily, consider two extreme/absurd, but informative, situations. Assume center-ball hits on the CB (no english) in both cases.

Cue #1 has a shaft diameter of 2 1/4" -- same as the CB (ignore the fact that such a wide shaft is illegal). With this shaft, aiming the left edge of the shaft at the right edge of the OB is the same as aiming the left edge of the CB at the right edge of the OB. And the result should be a maximum cut to the left of nearly 90 degrees.

Cue #2 has a shaft diameter of zero or nearly zero. But let's assume we can still see it and use it to propel the CB. With this shaft, aiming the left edge of the shaft at the right edge of the OB is the same as aiming the center of the shaft (or the right edge of the shaft) at the right edge of the OB. And the result is a half-ball aim, which should produce about a 30-degree cut to the left.

If our shaft was even wider than the CB, and we aimed edge of shaft to edge of OB, we'd miss the OB entirely.

This is a "silly" example, but it may help some people see that shaft diameter can matter. The difference between a 14mm shaft and a 10mm shaft, when aligning the edge to the OB's edge, is a difference of 2mm as to where the center of the shaft is pointing. And that can certainly affect the resulting cut angle.

 

[LAMas]

According to my diagrams in post #192, the edge of the ferrule aiming will result in 7-8 degrees to the right or left of aiming with the center of the ferrule (depending on the diameter).

Those that can identify the 1/4 and 3/4 pints of aim between the OB center and edge may benefit - or any other fraction about the equator of the OB.