Team mate question

boyersj

boyersj

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have a question to ask but before I do I need to set the scenario.

I am a new captain (SL 7) on an APA 8-ball team. I have a player on my team who is a mid to weak 5 but gets upset and self destructs when I call a coach. I try to tell him he is going to get in trouble before he does. He completely gets annoyed at every coach and this past week told me not only would he prefer to not get a coach but that I not watch his match. I feel this is detrimental to the team.

I am at a loss how to deal with the situation and ask for advice from the vast knowledge here on AZ. I appreciate all advice in advanced.
 
talk to him one on one with nobody else around. explain it is a TEAM. explain that you would except coaching even from a skill level 2, because a person watching can see things the person playing can sometimes miss.

explain that time outs are FREE. he can still do what he wants to do, but listen and take his time working out a plan.

if these suggestions to him don't work, DROP HIM like a bad habit.

attitudes like this towards time outs spread to the rest of the team. before you know it, all your players will be acting like him.

trust me, i've been through this.
 
The other option is simply to comply with his request to not coach him. Even as a weak 5 he can play a little. Let him screw up on his own. He cannot expect you not to watch the match, as that's part of the captain's job. You can however, allow him to make his own mistakes, and take his lumps afterwards (from the team members, not just the captain). If he refuses to allow any 'critique' from the team members, after the match, then I'd tell him nicely, that he'd probably do better on a different (not your) team next session. You can also use the option of making him sit out a few weeks. When he asks why, you can tell him that it's a liability to the team, not to be able to help the team members not make errors while they play (via a coaching timeout).

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
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You can tell your player that he isn't alone in this. I'm an SL4, and I have been terribly guilty of much of what you described. I find it hard to describe the "why", as it is difficult for me to understand as well. I've come to the conclusion that it isn't about the coaching itself, it's that I have my mind in a certain place, and the interruption is what would set me off. "Ya want a coach" when I'm already down on the ball.... of course, until I'm down on the ball, you can't really tell what I'm looking at doing, can you? :)

I've struggled with my reaction to that coaching offer for almost a year. My captain is VERY knowledgable, and is pretty much right every time. At least he is giving me the best chance or option. I realize all of this. But boy, is it difficult to take when your mind is set in "game mode", only to be interrupted.

I never have this problem when I call for a coach, only when he asks me. Does your player ever call for one, and if so, does it affect him the same as when you ask him if he needs one?

Sometimes I do feel better playing my match when my captain isn't watching. There is something funny about it, but when I play in front of him, I feel like every movement, position, bridge, everything is being judged or evaluated. It's a strange feeling, and I haven't figured out how to shake it completely. My team captain is perhaps my best friend, which makes it even stranger. It's a feeling of being under a microscope, very much unlike playing in front of other people. I wonder if this is affecting your player, as well, and that it may be what is causing his aversion to your assistance.

I have made a commitment to not letting this become a problem this session. It IS for the best, both for me and for our team. If your player doesn't want to recognize this, you may indeed have a problem. Hopefully he can see the benefit. I agree with the previous post, talk it out with him AWAY from everyone else.

Good luck!
 
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I have no experience with APA league play, but take your man aside and give him the old tried and true, there is no 'I' in team pep talk. There is no 'W' either, but that's beside the point.
Tell him that even though he is only a '5' who plays like a '2', that his skills are a necessary part of the overall success of the team and would be sorely missed, at least by your opponents.
Tell him that according to APA rules, each team is required to have at least one loser in order to achieve parody among the other teams.
If none of this convinces him that coaching is not only desirable, but necessary in his case, tell him that league night has been changed to Thursday when in fact it is still on Tuesday.
Glad I could be of help. :D
 
Tramp Steamer said:
I have no experience with APA league play, but take your man aside and give him the old tried and true, there is no 'I' in team pep talk. There is no 'W' either, but that's beside the point.
Tell him that even though he is only a '5' who plays like a '2', that his skills are a necessary part of the overall success of the team and would be sorely missed, at least by your opponents.
Tell him that according to APA rules, each team is required to have at least one loser in order to achieve parody among the other teams.
If none of this convinces him that coaching is not only desirable, but necessary in his case, tell him that league night has been changed to Thursday when in fact it is still on Tuesday.
Click to expand...

....and if none of these methods work, strip him naked, lash him to a pole and beat him across his backside with bamboo sticks :thumbup:!!!

Maniac
 
i was a sl7 in the apa for years and always the coach for my teams.giving advice to lower ranked players can often be the difference between a win and a loss.i have had lower ranked players call timeout on me and sometimes they offered good advice.if a member of a team cannot accept the oppinion of a teamate and consider following their advice they do not belong in a team competition.if early enough in the season i would look to replace him,if not he would sit out unless i needed to avoid a forfeit or he began to accept his teamates oppinions.
 
My team (though we are not APA but BCA) gets together once every one or two weeks and play each other. Here is where we do a lot of discussions (patterns/safeties/ and so on)and believe me it has helped us a lot. We went from being around 6th place for several years to competing for first the last couple. We actually play a ton of scotch doubles so no one is sitting out.
If this fails to help, I would consider getting another player for the next year. When we put the team together, we looked at not only skill level, but how well the person fits in to the group. If you have someone that is not capable of taking some pointers and learning, their skill level will remain the same for ever, plus they are doing the team no good.
 
I have a different outlook on this.

I can understand why a player can be thrown off their rhythm if someone screams out "Time out" when they have finished their practice strokes and are in their final swing. That's just wrong in my opinion.

Sometimes "when" and "how" you call a time out are more important than the act of calling the time out. I have seen captains call time outs when the player has committed to a shot, tell them what to shoot and see the player miss the shot time after time.

As a SL 5 this player only gets one time out per rack. Does he ever call a time out when he/she needs help?

If you're going to call a time out, I would do it before the player goes down on the shot if possible or at the latest during the first warm up stroke, after that it might do more harm than good.

I know that different captains are different, some who are high skill levels tell lower skill levels to do things they can't possibly do at the moment. Others will just offer options.

and there's a sad few who seem to call timeouts just to frustrate their players, like calling time out on every 8 ball shot just to tell the player not to scratch and to take their time. I've seen that destroy the confidence in the player.

There's a time and a place for calling a time out and when the player is in the act of shooting the shot is in my humble opinion "not the time" to call the time out.

I believe it's been said before that you might need to get rid of the player who won't bend to your will of calling a time out, but the same can be said that the player should recognize if he has a team member who consistently calls time out when he/she is committed to the shot and in the act of shooting it. He/she needs to get off that team.

Some captain's are more about being control freaks than they are about helping their players and some captains mean well. Remember the coach can refuse a player's timeout but the player to my knowledge can not refuse the coaches time out, at least in higher level play in our area.

Perhaps the player feels the coach/captain is harassing them when they play and that by calling timeouts frequently is telling them that they don't feel they can play on their own.

If none of this helps, send the player to the Master's league where there are no timeouts. They may be happier there.

Sorry for the long winded post but I think one should consider the player in the midst of this also and not just what the captain wants.
 
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Try this...

Next time you call a coach, walk up to him, and quietly ask him what he had for dinner that night, while pointing at the table, pretending that your interested in how the balls are laying.

Then ask him if he filed his taxes yet.

Then tell him he's doing a great job, wish him luck, and walk away. (kind of like that scene from Airplane, "we're all counting on you".

I used to love doing that, more so for getting one of my players to relax, and in your case, hopefully getting your player to realize that it's a game, winning is great, and coaches are useful, but he/she might realize that coaches aren't a sign of weakness.

Hopefully your guy will figure it all out. Good luck :thumbup:
 
As a mid level player striving to better my game, its hard for me to comprehend how someone would want to deny advise and "soak up" what better players have to suggest. I would also suggest having a 1 on 1 with him. Try to get a feel for, why he feels the way he does. When I was brand new to the game, I was always more then willing to call a timeout on myself if I felt I needed it. Ultimately its his decision in the shot and he should understand that. I have seen some horrible SL7 coaches but to take a timeout, think about it and recollect is hardly ever a negative thing. Not trying to be to harsh but if he can't understand this and play for the TEAM I would cut him.
 
It's simple. He needs to be on a team that is not interested in winning or coaching and you need a player that wants to win and be coached. I've been on about 45 teams as a SL7 and have been the captain and coach for a ton of them. Sometimes you just get players that want to argue or think they know better and man it's not worth getting worked up over. I think many people want to have an excuse to lose and maybe you coaching gives him his excuse. Just move on and get some new people. My teams have had great luck with running ads on Craigslist looking for beginner players looking to just have fun and learn.
 
whoa timeout!

Timeouts are very important.He should get used to stopping and refocusing.Even the highest skill level of player should be able to take a timeout.In the future he could get in a tough spot in a high presure situation and a timeout will help to reset the tilt meter.

I can remember having this problem as a SL5 myself.My coach (Milo) was very patient and would allways ask nicely if I wanted a timeout,allowing me to refuse if I wanted.To me the important factor is how the would be coach aproaches the timeout,you are simply there to make a sugestion or possibly just a breather.

I have seen some very awfull coaching in APA matches,like telling a player to try a shot that is way above his or her skill level.Another bad move is to shake thier confidence by saying somthing like "can you make this shot?" or "shoot it like this but don't miss"
 
I was on a team for awhile where this also occured. We were all great friends away from the table but our competitave personalities didn't always mesh well.

In some of these instances the player feels intimidated by your presence and anything that comes from your mouth sounds abrasive. He isn't seasoned enough to properly handle his internal stresses yet and the timeout compounds the matter, breaks down his confidence and mentality, and more times than not leads to an end result that is no better than if you would have left him alone.

Our team almost broke up over similar issues, even though we were and still are great friends. After a rather unplesant event, the captain (also a sl7) agreed to back off a little in order for the team to stay together.

There were 3 players on the team with the issues you are speaking of. When the trouble situations arose after that meeting for these players, the captain would tell me when to call the time out and what to coach them on. They felt less intimidated, and less pressured to "not screw up" with the dialouge that I presented vs. that of the captains.

It takes a lot of trust and comitment from everyone on the team to build up the team chemistry needed for sucessful teams, we went on to earn 5th place in Vegas that year for the 9ball division.

Sorry for the length, hope it helps, and best of luck,
-Jon
 
Some SL 7s are great SL 7s, but lousy coaches. Thirty years as an APA league operator has taught me this.

What if your shaky SL 5 is not the one with the problem here? You knowing what to do and being able to do it on demand is sometimes much easier than putting your knowledge into words that another player can process. Especially with all of the extra pressure of live match conditions that your SL 5 is dealing with.

The coach has to bring the coaching DOWN to the level of the shooter. So many high SL coaches expect the lower SL shooter to be able to bring their level of play UP to your level of coaching, grasp their point and perform accordingly.

He can't do that. That's why he is the SL 5 and you are the SL 7.

Examine everything about this issue, including every aspect of yourself and what you bring to the situation. You are the one who has to make the change - not him.

Just a thought.
 
Don't break the monkey's concentration while he is stalking and ready to pounce on the ever elusive and death defying banana. If the monkey loses sight of the banana for one second, the monkey will lose the banana, and he will starve.

It's a jungle out there.

In Korea, they say...."smart dog doesn't bark".
 
TCIndepMo said:
Some SL 7s are great SL 7s, but lousy coaches. Thirty years as an APA league operator has taught me this.

What if your shaky SL 5 is not the one with the problem here? You knowing what to do and being able to do it on demand is sometimes much easier than putting your knowledge into words that another player can process. Especially with all of the extra pressure of live match conditions that your SL 5 is dealing with.

The coach has to bring the coaching DOWN to the level of the shooter. So many high SL coaches expect the lower SL shooter to be able to bring their level of play UP to your level of coaching, grasp their point and perform accordingly.

He can't do that. That's why he is the SL 5 and you are the SL 7.

Examine everything about this issue, including every aspect of yourself and what you bring to the situation. You are the one who has to make the change - not him.

Just a thought.
Click to expand...

I somewhat agree with you.
As a coach, you need to know the capabilities of the player you are coaching. Even if I am coaching a player I don't know. I show them the best possible option for that situation, and ask them how confident they feel they can execute the shot successfully. I try to tell them where to strike the cue ball, where to contact the object ball or rail, and how hard to shoot.

But, if the reason he doesn't want a time out/coach is because of a break in concentration, then there isn't much you can do about that.
 
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pRACTICE CALLING ALL TIME OUTS

I was a captain of a team that was lucky enough to make it to the national tournament. I had my players meet on an off league night for practice sessions where i could teach them end game scenarios and safeties. (mostly sl2,3,4,5) I tried to get It across to them how much of an advantage it is to be able to call a timeout. Teach them about percentages and playing the shots with thw higher percentage. Mark the layout and have them do it ten times their shot and ten times your way. They will soon see how much more often they WIN. Make them realize that every match is a practice session for the regional tournament. I always coached them for "when we get to Vegas, do this or that" not IF WE GET there. I called and used every timeout even if they were shooting the 8 ball, it starts to be normal and the will get used to it. At the nationals, you will need them to feel like they're not experiencing something new, but just business as usual. I had 6 & 7s that I would call a timeout on just to slow them down, but when I went up to the table I'd say "I saved alot of money on my car insurance, by switching to Geico"!!! Just enough to relieve the tension and create a pause, to slow 'em down.

Anyway, IMO your players can only be expected to perform like they do during league and if your not practicing tournament pool every week how are they suppose to play it at the tournament??

In our league guys would flip for the break instead of practicing the lag!!!! I'm a 50% looser on the flip but only 5-10% on the lag. IMO you must stress to them how important this stuff is for "when we get to Vegas". You must teach them to use timeouts to their advantage. To be familiar with timeouts always being called, not just when hes doing something wrong, waste some of the timeouts,tell him to slow down and breathe, so they get used to not associating them with mistakes.

If he still refuses to listen replace him with a smokin' hot stripper girl that has never played pool before. You'll never regret it!!!!!LOL
 
I know a few guys like that, he would not be on any team of mine even if I did play league. Hard headed folks ain't worth the trouble.
 
PUTT4DACA$$H said:
I called and used every timeout even if they were shooting the 8 ball, it starts to be normal and the will get used to it. At the nationals, you will need them to feel like they're not experiencing something new, but just business as usual. I had 6 & 7s that I would call a timeout on just to slow them down, but when I went up to the table I'd say "I saved alot of money on my car insurance, by switching to Geico"!!! Just enough to relieve the tension and create a pause, to slow 'em down.
Click to expand...

Coming from the point of view of our OP's player, I have a difficult time with the concept of taking a time out just because we have one. If I don't need one, why are you breaking up my concentration and my rhythm? I can understand breaking it up if I'm on a bad roll, or have a bad attitude, or something like that. At such a time, a break would certainly be a good thing. But if my head is in the game, and the game is going along reasonably, why do you mess with it, if it isn't needed?

(Remember, I am trying to correct my bad responses to his calling time-outs, so I am self-aware on this issue. I'm trying to help you higher-level players/team captains see the other guys viewpoint, so perhaps you can approach them from a different perspective and get better cooperation.)

My team captain wants to do the same thing. Use every time out, every match. If I'm down to my last ball or two, and there is only one obvious shot, why on earth would you want to break up my game like that? Again, if game conditions warrant a mental break, sure. But just to use the time-out? That is frustrating, especially to someone who is doing their best to learn the game, and how to make the correct reads. By all means, if what I am doing is going to be a bad idea, then yes, a time-out seems appropriate. If there is a decision to be made between two different courses of action on the table, sure. But just to say you used all of your time-outs? THAT will set off your player. What are you gonna say to me when I have the 8-ball left, with a slight cut to the corner pocket? "Uhhh, you know that you have a slight cut to that pocket, right?" Thanks. That was very helpful, and I'm glad you took me out of my game-mode to tell me that.

Again, I'm trying to be a "reformed" time-out objectioner. (Is that even a word?) But perhaps if you folks realize where some of this resistance is coming from, you might find a different way to approach it to make it easier to accept, too. Or perhaps the OP's player is simply too hard-heaed to accept any help at all, in which case you do need to move to PUTT4DACA$$H's option B), the hot stripper. :grin: Maybe my team can move to that option as well? I'll suggest that! I'll even take a time-out to do so.:o
 
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