Team mate question

Might be time for the team captain to quit!

Many years ago the comedians had a baseball game playing the dramatic actors in Hollywood. Groucho was captain of the comedians team. He instructed his first batter to hit a home run. The batter struck out and Groucho resigned on the spot. "If you guys aren't going to follow instructions . . . "

Somehow this thread brings the old story to mind. Of course I'm a lousy team player and I know it.

Hu
 
I play on a heads up team that 3 players that could beer considered short stops and the rest of us decent run out players. All have been 7's in the APA before moving on. It is nothing for the Captain to call a time out and no one gets upset when he does.

When I played in the APA I was always called upon for coaching. If it was a situation that the player put himself into I would always laugh and say he should have asked for help on the shot before.

When I was in the APA when trouble was seen the captain would ask "Do you want a time out?" This lets the player decide or know that they are probably not doing the right thing. All of the teams in that league would do that but indirectly it is a form of coaching so I don't know how it would be considered in other areas.

I guess if that player in question doesn't help the team just tell him after the season that he behavior doesn't fit into your team's chemistry and you are going to replace him. Chances are he will figure it out anyways and quit.
 
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TheBook said:
When I played in the APA I was always called upon for coaching. If it was a situation that the player put himself into I would always laugh and say he should have asked for help on the shot before.
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Guilty! :o

We usually have a laugh about it and move on. Funny how this plays out the same with different folks.
 
boyersj said:
I have a question to ask but before I do I need to set the scenario.

I am a new captain (SL 7) on an APA 8-ball team. I have a player on my team who is a mid to weak 5 but gets upset and self destructs when I call a coach. I try to tell him he is going to get in trouble before he does. He completely gets annoyed at every coach and this past week told me not only would he prefer to not get a coach but that I not watch his match. I feel this is detrimental to the team.

I am at a loss how to deal with the situation and ask for advice from the vast knowledge here on AZ. I appreciate all advice in advanced.
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Your teammate has an ego problem. Until he realizes this, his improvement will be very slow and difficult. I have seen this in pool players all of my life. If fact, I have found out the easiest way on the pool table to extract money from someone was by playing their ego.

If he is uncomfortable with someone watching, or anyone for that matter, he has insecurity problems as well.

I have had coaches called on me from lesser players and they have been right. Sometimes as a player at the table, you just miss seeing certain things. As a SL 5, there is no doubt in my mind that he doesn't play all the correct patterns. A big part of the game is dealing with distractions (i.e. sharking, etc.).

The bottom line -- every team coaches, it's part of the game in the APA. I would tell him he has to get used to it. If he still insists that he doesn't want to be coached, I would grant him that wish. I would give him enough rope to hang himself. When he loses a match because of poor strategy (not execution), I would make a note of it. The next week or weeks, I would sit him. When he asks why, I would bring out the note pad. I would continue to sit him until he is ready to listen.

IMO he is just a little naive and green. It is your team and should be ran by you not him. I would give him a little time to mature. If that doesn't work,
Adiós!
 
Scott Lee said:
The other option is simply to comply with his request to not coach him. Even as a weak 5 he can play a little. Let him screw up on his own. He cannot expect you not to watch the match, as that's part of the captain's job. You can however, allow him to make his own mistakes, and take his lumps afterwards (from the team members, not just the captain). If he refuses to allow any 'critique' from the team members, after the match, then I'd tell him nicely, that he'd probably do better on a different (not your) team next session. You can also use the option of making him sit out a few weeks. When he asks why, you can tell him that it's a liability to the team, not to be able to help the team members not make errors while they play (via a coaching timeout).

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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This, I vote for Scott's approach....
 
Being a 10-year veteran in the APA, I can honestly say that I have never called for a coach, had a coach called on me, been asked to give a coach or provided my services for coaching...

That being said, I am a terrible liar.

Coaching is one of the strengths of the APA. It is an avenue for teaching and instructing others so that they can improve. Some extremely valid points have been raised from both sides of the story (the coach and the coached).

My opinion on the subject. A good coach is not only a person who can provide a fresh perspective on a shot, but also someone who does not force their will onto the players shot. A good coach "should" allow his players to make mistakes as opposed to coddling them through every shot in their game. People have to make mistakes in order to learn, some just take a while longer to learn than others. Best of all, a good coach is like a good leader, someone who can follow as well as he/she can lead.

I would spend more time to build a rapor with this person rather than throw them to the wayside. Invite them to score and watch your matches as well as call coaches for you. Your actions will always speak louder than your words.

-saige-
 
Some people are naturally a little touchy, but it as others have pointed out... you might need to work on your approach. I've heard a player (who is a pretty good shooter and not necessarily touchy) say she wished a certain coach wouldn't try to teach her and wouldn't watch her matches. The guy in question can shoot but something about his tone grated on her nerves.

You may or may not ever be able to help with your tone. Is there another player on the team whose judgment you trust? If the SL5 is willing to let SOMEone coach him, then it's fine. If they are resistant to any coaching at all, you might consider dropping them.
 
CreeDo said:
Some people are naturally a little touchy, but it as others have pointed out... you might need to work on your approach. I've heard a player (who is a pretty good shooter and not necessarily touchy) say she wished a certain coach wouldn't try to teach her and wouldn't watch her matches. The guy in question can shoot but something about his tone grated on her nerves.

You may or may not ever be able to help with your tone. Is there another player on the team whose judgment you trust? If the SL5 is willing to let SOMEone coach him, then it's fine. If they are resistant to any coaching at all, you might consider dropping them.
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True, true, true. Our captain doesn't always see eye-to-eye with another member of our team. That other member will take a coach, but it is usually from another one of the better players on our team. Personalities just don't mesh sometimes. As long as we all strive for the same goal...
 
TheBook said:
When I was in the APA when trouble was seen the captain would ask "Do you want a time out?" This lets the player decide or know that they are probably not doing the right thing. All of the teams in that league would do that but indirectly it is a form of coaching so I don't know how it would be considered in other areas.
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In my APA area it is written in the by-laws that if the player shooting has been asked by a member of his/her team if they want a timeout, then a timeout MUST be taken. This is for the very reason you mention above, so that a person can't let a player know that the choice of shot they are about to attempt is the wrong choice. It is a good rule, imo.

Maniac
 
I appreciate everyones feedback, there is a lot of good information already shared in this thread. Because tone and method have been discussed I will detail my personal approach.

If the shooter shows indecisiveness at a point that seems critical then I will call a coach and try to tell them what I would do. I always, always ask them before I give my opinion, "What are you thinking?" This allows them to relax and know that I am listening to their point of view. Also at the end of the discussion I tell them, "It's your shot and only you know what you are most comfortable with so I am only giving you my opinion." This method has worked for every other team mate I have ever coached.

I did use to make the mistake of waiting until they have addressed the cue ball and stop them when they are already down but I realized how detrimental this can be and that I would rather let them go.

It is also worth mentioning that this player indicated that they do not want anyone to coach him (not a personality conflict problem) unless he gets into trouble - which goes back to the concern that I would rather be able to prevent a 2 rail kick than teach where to hit the ball to get a good hit and "hope" it falls into the pocket.

Thank you again for all your comments and constructive comments.
 
boyersj said:
I have a question to ask but before I do I need to set the scenario.

I am a new captain (SL 7) on an APA 8-ball team. I have a player on my team who is a mid to weak 5 but gets upset and self destructs when I call a coach. I try to tell him he is going to get in trouble before he does. He completely gets annoyed at every coach and this past week told me not only would he prefer to not get a coach but that I not watch his match. I feel this is detrimental to the team.

I am at a loss how to deal with the situation and ask for advice from the vast knowledge here on AZ. I appreciate all advice in advanced.
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I haven't read any responses, but my first reaction is to get another player...

i know that MANY players do not like to have their rhythm broken by a time out....and there are ways you can make things easier for certain players:

* Call time outs early in the preshot routine (i.e. not when they are down on the ball)
* Ask for the shooter's strategy before telling them what you think they should do, etc...

But, if you have someone who thinks they know it all and won't listen to any outside advice, do you really have the strongest team you can have?

I guess it just depends on what you team goals are. If you're a bunch of friends who just want to have some fun and shoot pool, then don't worry about it. If you want to build the strongest team you can, then maybe you need to look for another shooter.
 
boyersj said:
I appreciate everyones feedback, there is a lot of good information already shared in this thread. Because tone and method have been discussed I will detail my personal approach.

If the shooter shows indecisiveness at a point that seems critical then I will call a coach and try to tell them what I would do. I always, always ask them before I give my opinion, "What are you thinking?" This allows them to relax and know that I am listening to their point of view. Also at the end of the discussion I tell them, "It's your shot and only you know what you are most comfortable with so I am only giving you my opinion." This method has worked for every other team mate I have ever coached.

I did use to make the mistake of waiting until they have addressed the cue ball and stop them when they are already down but I realized how detrimental this can be and that I would rather let them go.

It is also worth mentioning that this player indicated that they do not want anyone to coach him (not a personality conflict problem) unless he gets into trouble - which goes back to the concern that I would rather be able to prevent a 2 rail kick than teach where to hit the ball to get a good hit and "hope" it falls into the pocket.

Thank you again for all your comments and constructive comments.
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I think you're handling it the right way. Since I'm the only one here to take your players perspective, I don't think you are out of line at all. Seems like your player just isn't interested in any sort of coaching at all, and that's gonna be difficult. I wish you luck.
 
There are only a couple of instances when I will call a time out.

1. Ball in hand, after the player places the CB but prior to any preshot routine, if I feel they are going about it the wrong way. The first thing I do when I approach the table is ask the player what he had in mind. If it is a reasonable plan I'll tell them so. If it isn't, then offer what I was thinking. The player then plays the scenario they chose.

2. The player is going to take a shot that I think has a high probability of resulting in loss of game ie scratch on the 8, 8 out of turn, a scratch or another foul. When I approach the table I ask what the players plan was, point out the possible pitfalls and offer an alternative. What the player does from there is up to them.

If one of these two situations doesn't arise I keep my mouth shut and watch the match.

:cool:
 
equality aside

Tramp Steamer said:
I have no experience with APA league play, but take your man aside and give him the old tried and true, there is no 'I' in team pep talk. There is no 'W' either, but that's beside the point.
Tell him that even though he is only a '5' who plays like a '2', that his skills are a necessary part of the overall success of the team and would be sorely missed, at least by your opponents.
Tell him that according to APA rules, each team is required to have at least one loser in order to achieve parody among the other teams.
If none of this convinces him that coaching is not only desirable, but necessary in his case, tell him that league night has been changed to Thursday when in fact it is still on Tuesday.
Glad I could be of help. :D
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First, Tramp, let me say I enjoy your sense of humor and assume that your use of the word, "parody," was deliberate. There is, of course, no 'i' and no 't' in the word 'parody'. :yeah:
 
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