team-mates that tell you how to play

[CreeDo]

I'm one of those guys you might not like, as I occasionally call timeouts when my teammate didn't ask.
I've also had teammates wave me off and say "nah man I'm good, I got this".
I'll tell them well we burned the timeout anyway so just hear me out, and then do what you like.

One of the biggest obstacles to learning in general is EGO.

When an APA5 tells his 7/9 teammate to piss off, "I know what I'm doing", etc.
That's just ego. They want to show the world they know how to shoot and don't need any help
and are expert enough to see the correct play even if they don't always execute it.

For the good of your team, try to let go of ego.

If it turns out he tells you something you were going to do anyway, it's no big deal.
It's nice to confirm that your thinking lines up with another good player's thinking.
Then you know it's the right play.

If it's something totally different then you now have 2 options instead of 1.
Getting advice from a better player is win-win if you keep an open mind.

 

[cardiac kid]

I wish they would just do away with coaching. Leave it to the two opponents to shoot at their skill level and see who wins. I am usually the coach and one of the better players on the team. When a player lines up for a tough bank, when maybe there is an easy safe. They need to kick at a ball. Shouldn't it be done at their level and not be helped by a more skilled player. How many times you see a player get coached to play a safety?

So how does the player ever learn the "correct" way to play out of that situation? If you keep doing the same thing wrong again and again, what is the reason to continue? Allowing a team to coach once or twice per rack depending on the players skill level is one way for a player to learn.. Of course if the player does not want to learn ........ On the other hand, allowing a player to learn on their own will keep YOU winning as they will never get better.

Lyn

 

[Pete]

When I did leagues, I didn't like all the coaching. I told my buddy and he said if it really bothered me then I should sit there and listen to what they say and say "OK, I'll try" then miss and after I loose the match, say that the coach made me so nervious I couldn't shoot. I think that really took me out of my game. Sorry."

I never did, but always wondered if this would work to get them to let me learn on my own. And by the way, I was practicing over 1000 hrs (logged) per year at that time plus bi-weekly lessons. So league was where I was trying to learn to compete...

 

[RFranklin]

1000 hrs!

I never did, but always wondered if this would work to get them to let me learn on my own. And by the way, I was practicing over 1000 hrs (logged) per year at that time plus bi-weekly lessons. So league was where I was trying to learn to compete...[/QUOTE]

Holy crap! You had better be a BCA grand master or APA 7/9 or you chose the wrong hobby. Most people only work 2000-2200 hours a year if they are salary. Did you do anything else?

 

[jburkm002]

I agree that the first thing a coach should do is ask the player what their thoughts are. A good coach is not only calling a timeout to help you but to help the TEAM. They should know your skill level and what you can and can't do on a normal basis at your skill level. A bad coach tries to get you to do what they can do. The shot is always the players and either way he has to be comfortable with that decision. I know lower ranked players who think they can make everything. Coach may be trying to give them a shot that has more success and position. Again something that should be in their comfort zone if they saw the layout that a better player sees. Sounds like in your case your just mad because they called a timeout and most likely you would would have failed to execute your shot or the coaches shot properly. My only hope is that either choice and a miss ended with a "good try" from your team and coach. If they are negative because you missed and your negative because they called a timeout than there is an issue.

 

[Pete]

I never did, but always wondered if this would work to get them to let me learn on my own. And by the way, I was practicing over 1000 hrs (logged) per year at that time plus bi-weekly lessons. So league was where I was trying to learn to compete...

Holy crap! You had better be a BCA grand master or APA 7/9 or you chose the wrong hobby. Most people only work 2000-2200 hours a year if they are salary. Did you do anything else?[/QUOTE]

Nope I'm not. Yep I worked a full time job...

 

[RFranklin]

Addicted

Holy crap! You had better be a BCA grand master or APA 7/9 or you chose the wrong hobby. Most people only work 2000-2200 hours a year if they are salary. Did you do anything else?

Nope I'm not. Yep I worked a full time job...[/QUOTE]

You must not have kids or be married. There are 8760 hours in a year, 7 hours a day/night sleeping 2550, 2200 working, 1000 playing pool doesnt leave much for anything else. Press on, my friend.....and yes, I am a banker/analyst and play with statistics way too much.

 

[onepocketron]

This thread reminds me of really three things:

1) There are people that welcome advice from those with a much higher skill level. They absorb all they can to improve. They ask a lot of questions to try and learn all they can, while all the time trying to improve their play. Though they may have a ego, it doesn't get in the way of them learning and trying to improve by obtaining strategies and advice from others. They tend to progress fairly rapidly.

2) There are people that hate advice, no matter if the person giving the pointer is a much higher skill level than themselves. Their head is harder than concrete. They are so competitive they seem to feel it is a sign of weakness to ask questions or to learn from someone else. They think they are right, even though they are getting their brains beat out all the time. Their way is the right way no matter what. They always have an excuse for why they lost. Their pride and ego get in the way of them learning or taking advice from another person. They tend to improve very slowly, for good reason.

3) The guy giving the advice is such an ass, that no one in their right mind would even want to listen to him because he comes across as some know it all. He doesn't know how to talk to people and alienates most everyone because in his mind he is right all the time, and everyone else is wrong.:smile:

 

[Pete]

Nope I'm not. Yep I worked a full time job...

You must not have kids or be married. There are 8760 hours in a year, 7 hours a day/night sleeping 2550, 2200 working, 1000 playing pool doesnt leave much for anything else. Press on, my friend.....and yes, I am a banker/analyst and play with statistics way too much.[/QUOTE]

Married 13 years yesterday and have a great dog son.

3 hrs per day M - F and 5 on the weekends gets you there + 300 hrs. So I think 1000 hp/y isn't as tough as it sounds. I get out of work at 3 and my wife works until 6 (w/ a 1 hr commute for her). The room was right on the way home. I did it from 2002 until 2009. Then I dropped my time down until I stopped playing for a couple years. Started back up last September then took this past summer off (back 3 weeks now).

Now I shoot maybe 10 + hrs a week. I miss the passion I used to have for the game :frown::frown::frown:...

 

[Cory in DC]

Please, please, please dont take the advice. The APA needs lots of you 5's and 6's that think you know what you are doing running around forever stuck in the middle. Also, if you take the time to note that 9 times out of 10 it doesnt work out well, then you are focusing on the "I told you so" when you lose instead of the advice and not the match itself. There are a dozen ways out of most racks but most skilled players can spot the obvious wrong shots.

This is exactly right. People who don't want to learn and think their own way is better but couldn't beat me (just a decent B player) getting a 5-2 spot is a point of frustration and I try to avoid being on teams with those types.

As for waiting for people to want a coach, by the time they realize they need one, it's usually too late. My coach in those cases is "next time, don't put yourself in this spot." (Then I quickly say how they could have done so and shift to the problem at hand.) In any case, I try to use my coaches to keep players out of trouble when they're about to get into trouble. That means I have to call a timeout when they don't even know that they need one.

Examples of things that 3-6s often need help with:

• * If you shoot the 3, you'll bump the 5 into the heart of the cluster of stripes and have a really tough time.
• * If you play this break-out shot now, are you really likely to get out? Because you're about to really make things easy for your opponent if you don't.
• * Are you planning to shoot the 5-ball now, then the 4, 6, and 2? How are you going to get back downtable for the 3?
• * You can get out here, but you have to shoot the 1 first, tap the 8 loose from the 12-ball, and then you'll have the 2 as an insurance ball so you won't get hooked. If you shoot the 2 and then the 1, the 8-ball will still be tied up and when you try to break it out later, you won't have the insurance ball and could get hooked.
• * There's really not a good shot here and your 3 and 5 are tied up. Bunt your 3-ball free and don't start running balls until you have maneuvered the 5 ball free.
• * See how the 1-ball is trapped downtable in a sea of stripes and all your other solids are on the other end of the table? You can't run all the solids and expose yourself to endless safeties. Bank some balls to get them near the 1-ball and leave your opponent hooked or at least long. Once you can see a way to get the 1-ball out (perhaps requiring getting ball in hand) then you can start running.

Seriously, those are subtle points for a D or C player, lots of Bs too. Any player who is good enough to understand and execute it but doesn't want to hear this type of stuff is (1) nuts and (2) a bad teammate. I don't have real stats to prove this, but I am very confident that my teams' average win percentage is higher when I'm there coaching from start to finish than when I'm not.

Here are things I do that seem to make the timeouts go better.

• * Ask what they are thinking. Sometimes I'll decide their plan is better, at least for them. If I think mine is better, I'll quickly say why (or if time is short, offer to explain in more detail post-match).
• * Don't say what I would do if I was shooting; focus on what they can execute. As you can see in the above list, most of my coaching is about shot selection, not execution.
• * Where possible, give two options and ask the player which they think they can hit better.
• * Lead by example: I ask for timeouts for myself and listen to, discuss, and sometimes even follow the resulting advice.

Cory

 

[336]

This is exactly right. People who don't want to learn and think their own way is better but couldn't beat me (just a decent B player) getting a 5-2 spot is a point of frustration and I try to avoid being on teams with those types.

As for waiting for people to want a coach, by the time they realize they need one, it's usually too late. My coach in those cases is "next time, don't put yourself in this spot." (Then I quickly say how they could have done so and shift to the problem at hand.) In any case, I try to use my coaches to keep players out of trouble when they're about to get into trouble. That means I have to call a timeout when they don't even know that they need one.

Examples of things that 3-6s often need help with:

• * If you shoot the 3, you'll bump the 5 into the heart of the cluster of stripes and have a really tough time.
• * If you play this break-out shot now, are you really likely to get out? Because you're about to really make things easy for your opponent if you don't.
• * Are you planning to shoot the 5-ball now, then the 4, 6, and 2? How are you going to get back downtable for the 3?
• * You can get out here, but you have to shoot the 1 first, tap the 8 loose from the 12-ball, and then you'll have the 2 as an insurance ball so you won't get hooked. If you shoot the 2 and then the 1, the 8-ball will still be tied up and when you try to break it out later, you won't have the insurance ball and could get hooked.
• * There's really not a good shot here and your 3 and 5 are tied up. Bunt your 3-ball free and don't start running balls until you have maneuvered the 5 ball free.
• * See how the 1-ball is trapped downtable in a sea of stripes and all your other solids are on the other end of the table? You can't run all the solids and expose yourself to endless safeties. Bank some balls to get them near the 1-ball and leave your opponent hooked or at least long. Once you can see a way to get the 1-ball out (perhaps requiring getting ball in hand) then you can start running.

Seriously, those are subtle points for a D or C player, lots of Bs too. Any player who is good enough to understand and execute it but doesn't want to hear this type of stuff is (1) nuts and (2) a bad teammate. I don't have real stats to prove this, but I am very confident that my teams' average win percentage is higher when I'm there coaching from start to finish than when I'm not.

Here are things I do that seem to make the timeouts go better.

• * Ask what they are thinking. Sometimes I'll decide their plan is better, at least for them. If I think mine is better, I'll quickly say why (or if time is short, offer to explain in more detail post-match).
• * Don't say what I would do if I was shooting; focus on what they can execute. As you can see in the above list, most of my coaching is about shot selection, not execution.
• * Where possible, give two options and ask the player which they think they can hit better.
• * Lead by example: I ask for timeouts for myself and listen to, discuss, and sometimes even follow the resulting advice.

Cory

Spot on, brother.

 

[LuckyStroke]

It rubs me the wrong way, I don't tell anyone else how to play? 9 times out of ten if follow a team-mates advice, it doesn't turn out very well. We all see the table differently, let me play my own game...please.
I'm ready to quit this league bs.

I play in head phones for this exact reason. Sometimes I'm not even listening to music.

 

[desmocourtney]

Outstanding post. I should print this out and post it on the wall where I play.

This is exactly right. People who don't want to learn and think their own way is better but couldn't beat me (just a decent B player) getting a 5-2 spot is a point of frustration and I try to avoid being on teams with those types.

As for waiting for people to want a coach, by the time they realize they need one, it's usually too late. My coach in those cases is "next time, don't put yourself in this spot." (Then I quickly say how they could have done so and shift to the problem at hand.) In any case, I try to use my coaches to keep players out of trouble when they're about to get into trouble. That means I have to call a timeout when they don't even know that they need one.

Examples of things that 3-6s often need help with:

• * If you shoot the 3, you'll bump the 5 into the heart of the cluster of stripes and have a really tough time.
• * If you play this break-out shot now, are you really likely to get out? Because you're about to really make things easy for your opponent if you don't.
• * Are you planning to shoot the 5-ball now, then the 4, 6, and 2? How are you going to get back downtable for the 3?
• * You can get out here, but you have to shoot the 1 first, tap the 8 loose from the 12-ball, and then you'll have the 2 as an insurance ball so you won't get hooked. If you shoot the 2 and then the 1, the 8-ball will still be tied up and when you try to break it out later, you won't have the insurance ball and could get hooked.
• * There's really not a good shot here and your 3 and 5 are tied up. Bunt your 3-ball free and don't start running balls until you have maneuvered the 5 ball free.
• * See how the 1-ball is trapped downtable in a sea of stripes and all your other solids are on the other end of the table? You can't run all the solids and expose yourself to endless safeties. Bank some balls to get them near the 1-ball and leave your opponent hooked or at least long. Once you can see a way to get the 1-ball out (perhaps requiring getting ball in hand) then you can start running.

Seriously, those are subtle points for a D or C player, lots of Bs too. Any player who is good enough to understand and execute it but doesn't want to hear this type of stuff is (1) nuts and (2) a bad teammate. I don't have real stats to prove this, but I am very confident that my teams' average win percentage is higher when I'm there coaching from start to finish than when I'm not.

Here are things I do that seem to make the timeouts go better.

• * Ask what they are thinking. Sometimes I'll decide their plan is better, at least for them. If I think mine is better, I'll quickly say why (or if time is short, offer to explain in more detail post-match).
• * Don't say what I would do if I was shooting; focus on what they can execute. As you can see in the above list, most of my coaching is about shot selection, not execution.
• * Where possible, give two options and ask the player which they think they can hit better.
• * Lead by example: I ask for timeouts for myself and listen to, discuss, and sometimes even follow the resulting advice.

Cory

 

[Banks]

I recently dumped my last team partly because I was given attitude by one or two players when I would call a timeout. It depends on who is giving you the constant advice.. is an average/weaker player always telling you what to do or is it a stronger player? Just because you don't execute the shot doesn't mean that the advice is incorrect.

Somebody(a strong 4/low 5) once set up a draw shot with ball-in-hand on a pretty basic out. I took a timeout and said to just shoot the other, closer, corner and use top to just float the ball over for an easy shot. Oh, no, he knew better.. and failed. After, he told me he's got that shot 9 times out of 10. So, I had him set it up and watched him screw up about 9 times out of 10. He was still difficult to take timeouts with after that. Some people just don't get it.

It can be hard on a player to watch somebody set themselves up for failure and know that there's something you can do about it.. but they'll be ungrateful. Nothing better than somebody screwing up what you suggest and then blaming it on you.

Edit: I also agree 100% with Cory's bottom list of things for timeouts and use them regularly.

 

[RFranklin]

Right Shot

My favorite is when my 3 calls a timeout with ball in hand early in a 9 ball rack and I tell him to shoot a safety and push the object ball where he can actually get to the next shot. I wish I could show you their face. Of course low ranked players would actually understand the power of ball in hand and safeties if the APA actually really played 9 ball but that is an entirely different thread.

 

[Cdryden]

My favorite is when my 3 calls a timeout with ball in hand early in a 9 ball rack and I tell him to shoot a safety and push the object ball where he can actually get to the next shot. I wish I could show you their face. Of course low ranked players would actually understand the power of ball in hand and safeties if the APA actually really played 9 ball but that is an entirely different thread.

Lol! I had a guy ask me for a coach once and I advised him to shoot safe and explained how. He said "But I can make this ball." I told him I know he could but he wouldn't have a shot on the next one, to which he replied, "But I get 2 coaches per match, I'll just call you up again after this shot!"

 

[bmsclayton]

not on our team

It rubs me the wrong way, I don't tell anyone else how to play? 9 times out of ten if follow a team-mates advice, it doesn't turn out very well. We all see the table differently, let me play my own game...please.
I'm ready to quit this league bs.

We actually ask that of people before they are asked to play on our team. We believe deeply in using the coaches as tools / confirmation as to the right shot, etc. Most of the time when coaches don't work out as you say it is a mental block the player has because he can't execute in the correct mindset. The coach you take should also be a learning experieince for the future so you don't pick the wrong shot or pattern etc.... Just because some players see things differently doesn't mean it is right

 

[bmsclayton]

my favorite

We had a 3 with BIH on the 8 both the 8 and 9 on the bottom rail about 18 inches apart. He lined up the combo, we called coach, he said no, we grabbed his stick and forced him to shoot the 8 then 9

 

[TheNewSharkster]

It rubs me the wrong way, I don't tell anyone else how to play? 9 times out of ten if follow a team-mates advice, it doesn't turn out very well. We all see the table differently, let me play my own game...please.
I'm ready to quit this league bs.

What is your skill level? Remember that if a teammate is giving you advice they are trying to help you. Also remember that at the end of the day it is your choice what shot you play. You are not obligated to play the shot they suggest.

I will say that as a captain I have had frustration with some players. For example, I have a SL3 on my team. He is playing 9ball and has 7,8,9 remaining and has BIH. He gets down to shoot and lines up a shot that will not give him position to get out. I call timeout and he is annoyed because I interrupted him. I tell him that using the timeout on BIH was the perfect time to use it. I explained the shot he should take and he chose to go with his original play. He failed to get out and lost the match. Afterwards he says I sharked him out of the shot and that is why he lost. WTF

 

[nine_ball6970]

Seems to me that when I was last in the national leagues, about five years ago, the rule was that the player is coached only when he asks for it and then he can only have one designated coach.

Not a bad rule. Helps those who need it and keeps the others from breaking a player's concentration.

When you come back to the table after a miss -- well that is another story or perhaps several stories

In our local league of old retirees, there is no coaching. Of course by the time you are our ages you should be able to play a little.

The main problem with the rule above is people don't know what they don't know. There are situations when they believe they are playing the correct shot because they don't know any better. If they did know what to do in most of those instances then they would be higher level players.