Tell 'em like it is, Alex!

[!Smorgass Bored]

Riders UP !

Well, if that pool thing doesn't work out for Alex, he's small enough to get a job riding the Greyhounds at the tracks in Florida...... imo
Doug
( betting $20 across the board on the pretty white dog with Alex in the saddle )

 

[lfigueroa]

Front page news this morning, an article about Alex Pagulayan, one of the most beloved pool players in the entire world, getting kicked off the Team Philippines for an upcoming Billiards and Snooker Congress of Philippines (BSCP) event.

Alex requested to be compensated if they were going to use his likeness on a televised pool match, and when he said show me the money, the BSCP promptly kicked him off the four-man team, replacing him with Jeffrey De Luna.

Pagulayan made the statement after the BSCP replaced him as a member of the four-man Philippine team that is scheduled to compete in the Guinness Asia 9-Ball Tour in Shanghai, China, on August 3-5. He also said that he had spent money for his plane fare to come, missed a couple of tournaments and exhibition matches, which deprived him of earnings. Pagulayan said it's good that they did this so "I can now go to media and tell them what has been happening".

Do you stand by with Alex's stance, or should he have kept quiet? I'm on Alex's side. The pool industry is the one making all the big bucks, while pool players scrape for crumbs. What say you?

JAM

I doubt anyone in the billiards industry is making "big bucks" supporting pool events. Financially, right now, it's a poor sport. And the truth is that it takes a lot of money to make these events happen in the first place. And one of the standard ways a sponsor/promoter would generate revenue (spelled: cover expenses) for an event (and build a fan base for future events) would be to use a player's likeness for promotional purposes. I think that's pretty standard fare and can end up helping a player by establishing his identity with the fans -- not only the hardcore fans, but also with the casual fans who are less familiar with who the players are.

"Going to the media" is often a double-edged sword.... so, IMO, all Alex is doing is "pissing in his Cheerios." He will look and feel like a hero for a day, but that day will pass and all he will be left with are some stinky Cheerios, instead of his face on TV and being invited to many pool events ;-)

Lou Figueroa

 

[JAM]

Maybe nobody in the billiards business is making big bucks.

For sure, the pool player isn't and remains at the bottom of the food chain.

JAM

 

[sniper]

The BSCP releases this statement AFTER Alex Pagulayan goes public, and in order to save face for their decision to take him off the four-man Team Philippines, they come up with this lame excuse that Alex disrespected the sport and doesn't lose gracefully.

I say hogwash. Show me the proof. Where is the video where Alex disrespected the sport and did not lose gracefully? They come with these allegations AFTER they dismissed Alex.

When they phoned Alex to talk to him initially, why didn't they tell him that they were going to can him then? They waited until right before the event, and Alex's monies he invested to go to this tournament are lost. Alex is stuck big time financially. The whole thing looks like a conspiracy to alienate Alex Pagulayan because they were angry with him going public.

I stand by Alex Pagulayan on this one.

JAM

I couldn't agree with you more on this one JAM. It really sounds like the BSCP is just trying to save face, and doing a poor job of it on top of things.

I can't imagine the financial hit Alex took on this one, it's not like pool players have alot of money in the first place

 

[watchez]

Maybe nobody in the billiards business is making big bucks.

For sure, the pool player isn't and remains at the bottom of the food chain.

JAM

What would you think, in your opinion, would be a decent yearly income for an American pool player?

 

[JAM]

What would you think, in your opinion, would be a decent yearly income for an American pool player?

After expenses?

The financial difficulties with playing professional pool is that the expenses are so high, as most know.

My experience of attending tournaments in the United States only, primarily the East Coast, as an example, it costs about $35,000-plus per annum.

I cannot imagine with a tournament soldier who travels the globe, like Alex Pagulayan, forks out for expenses on an annual basis.

Some foreign governments sponsor pool players, but here in the United States, that will never happen.

That leaves sponsorship to the pool industry, which is already spreading itself thin. There's a few American players sponsored by pool industry, that have all their expenses paid for and receive a monthly check, but that is the exception rather than the rule.

So, in sum, a decent salary for an American pool player -- not one that travels to other countries all over the globe -- would be 75- to $100,000, I would think, if you were to separate out $35,000-plus for expenses. JMHO, FWIW!

Note Bene: I have no expertise in playing professional pool. The above-referenced comments are my opinion based on my personal experience.

JAM

 

[watchez]

After expenses?

The financial difficulties with playing professional pool is that the expenses are so high, as most know.

My experience of attending tournaments in the United States only, primarily the East Coast, as an example, it costs about $35,000-plus per annum.

I cannot imagine with a tournament soldier who travels the globe, like Alex Pagulayan, forks out for expenses on an annual basis.

Some foreign governments sponsor pool players, but here in the United States, that will never happen.

That leaves sponsorship to the pool industry, which is already spreading itself thin. There's a few American players sponsored by pool industry, that have all their expenses paid for and receive a monthly check, but that is the exception rather than the rule.

So, in sum, a decent salary for an American pool player -- not one that travels to other countries all over the globe -- would be 75- to $100,000, I would think, if you were to separate out $35,000-plus for expenses. JMHO, FWIW!

Note Bene: I have no expertise in playing professional pool. The above-referenced comments are my opinion based on my personal experience.

JAM

So, I won't give out his name because I don't have his permission but I know of an AMERICAN pool player, who is a top player that has a deal with a sponsor above the decent salary you describe. He gets $100k a year salary, all expenses paid (airfare, hotel, entry fees) to any 'Pro' event, and in return just has to wear a small patch on his shirt & give his sponsor 20% of what he wins. The 20% is really a joke because he would have to win $500k for them to just get even on his base salary. What they get out of sponsoring this player advertising wise, I can not really be sure. So I would say that this AMERICAN pool player has, currently, a pretty good life. Most weeks, I am sure he spends more time playing & practicing golf than he does pool.

Vijay Singh, as a pro golfer who yes makes more than $100k a year, is said to hit 1000 golf balls a day. I doubt this AMERICAN 100k pool player hits an average of 100 pool balls a day.

 

[JAM]

So, I won't give out his name because I don't have his permission but I know of an AMERICAN pool player, who is a top player that has a deal with a sponsor above the decent salary you describe. He gets $100k a year salary, all expenses paid (airfare, hotel, entry fees) to any 'Pro' event, and in return just has to wear a small patch on his shirt & give his sponsor 20% of what he wins. The 20% is really a joke because he would have to win $500k for them to just get even on his base salary. What they get out of sponsoring this player advertising wise, I can not really be sure. So I would say that this AMERICAN pool player has, currently, a pretty good life. Most weeks, I am sure he spends more time playing & practicing golf than he does pool.

Vijay Singh, as a pro golfer who yes makes more than $100k a year, is said to hit 1000 golf balls a day. I doubt this AMERICAN 100k pool player hits an average of 100 balls a day.

Depends on the player, don't you think?

I know of some players who play pool 24/7, every single day. They probably hit more than 1,000 pool balls a day, especially if they are of the gambling variety.

Some current-day players in the United States, IMHO, have become disgruntled with the current state of affairs when it comes to making a decent living being a tournament soldier.

Golf seems to be a favorite sport of many American pool players, some of them champion caliber pool players.

There just isn't a decent wage for American pool players today to be made. You have to really have a whole lot of passion for pool in order to live the lifestyle of a tournament soldier. It doesn't pay back very well in the way of monies, but it does pay back in the way of following their dreams.

Today, the lifestyle for some unsponsored pool players consists of sharing hotel rooms, eating at fast-food restaurants, and not enjoying a permanent residence, meaning a permanent roof over your head.

Whenever I attended a pool tournament in the past, I looked at it as if it was a pool vacation, not as a money-making operation. There is no guarantee you are going to come into the money at these pool tournaments, and if you don't come in first, second, or third place at most events, you are stuck the expenses. If you do come in first, second, or third place, you're stuck from expenses of the previous tournaments you attended.

There's no place like home, and I like having a roof over my head.

Pagulayan officially had his mailing address in Canada, but today has a double residency, to include the Philippines. In March 2007 when asked where he resides, Pagulayan jokingly replied, "My suitcase. Yes. That's where I live right now -- out of my suitcase!"

JAM

 

[Johnnyt]

Well, if that pool thing doesn't work out for Alex, he's small enough to get a job riding the Greyhounds at the tracks in Florida...... imo
Doug
( betting $20 across the board on the pretty white dog with Alex in the saddle )

Do you remember when they had monkeys as jockeys down at that track in the Keys Doug? Johnnyt

 

[watchez]

This is just one sponsorship arrangement of a player that I am privy too. I am sure that others would have similiar 'deals'. Another mid range pro that I know gets $20k a year. Not terrific, but at least something to help his expenses.

 

[JAM]

This is just one sponsorship arrangement of a player that I am privy too. I am sure that others would have similiar 'deals'. Another mid range pro that I know gets $20k a year. Not terrific, but at least something to help his expenses.

Believe me when I say that this mid-range pro should consider him- or herself very fortunate.

I would guesstimate that 95 percent of the tournament soldiers that I have firsthand knowledge of in my neck of the woods who play pool on a full-time basis get no funds from any sponsor. Yet, they still travel the globe in pursuit of that almighty win because of their deep passion for pool.

JAM

 

[!Smorgass Bored]

The Animal Rights People Killed The Monkey Rider Business

Do you remember when they had monkeys as jockeys down at that track in the Keys Doug?
Johnnyt

Well, wasn't that in the 1930s, so............ NO !
Doug
( but I'd bet the dogs IF they put the monkeys back on the them...... or if they let them chase LIVE rabbits )

http://home.centurytel.net/start/gypsy

 

[Johnnyt]

Well, wasn't that in the 1930s, so............ NO !
Doug
( but I'd bet the dogs IF they put the monkeys back on the them...... or if they let them chase LIVE rabbits )

http://home.centurytel.net/start/gypsy

We never use live lures Johnnyt

 

[Hail Mary Shot]

Basing from the allegations that I had read coming from both camps, it seems more likely that Alex's statements bear more weight and logic. the BSCP seems to be cheating Alex by acting like his agents in getting him to appear in a tv series w/o pay. it is not an uncommon practice for so-called organizations, if not some agents to exploit individuals. it appears that it is some sort of a blackmail on the part of the BSCP. it's either follow our rules or you will be canned. Alex gets nothing if his motive or intention was just to shame and falsely accuse the BSCP. if that was the case, the BSCP can just shrug the issue off that easily and would declare it as heresy. besides, Alex also needs to earn money and fend for himself. I think one of his complaints was about the airfare sponsorship. the BSCP didn't spent a cent on his travel expenses, yet they have the nerve to use the guy for their money-making scheme. this is a lil bit too much greed on the part of the BSCP. now, about Alex's so-called unnecessary behaviour. this is probably the lamest excuse I had heard coming from the BSCP. if they found out that Alex's behaviour were unacceptable, I believe that it is only logical to inform him before hand to act properly according to their standards. the thing was, Alex did this several times, even before the semi-finals and yet there was no warning issued coming from the BSCP. nor was there a suspension imposed just to discipline Alex. just an automatic expulsion. I don't believe that the BSCP is unaware of Alex's character and antics. even before he joined the Asian Tour, when he won several major international championships, he was already known as a joker.
only a complete idiot of an organization would not know of this. otherwise the BSCP shoudn't have invited Alex to participate on the Asian Tour in the first place, have they known his character. I didn't even heard the BSCP complain or whine about his behavior when Alex won some major titles. instead, they even invited him to play some tournaments.
The BSCP is stating some invisible rules and could only justify their actions by saying it's a privilege to play and not a right.
I hope the BSCP could come up with a more believable made-up reason.

If I were Alex, I would represent Singapore in the Asian Tour and shove back those shitty things said by the BSCP. it would be much sweeter if Alex would beat his fellow countrymen (though I won't enjoy it much) or emerge as victor in some of the legs then. just to teach the BSCP a lesson.

They should probably start restructuring the BSCP and sack those who were involved in such unlawful practice.

 

[yobagua]

Are you kidding me? You all go about how Alex did the right thing. How he stood up for his rights. How the BCSP should restructure. Are you going to pay his bills. Sure clap him on the back but he suffers. Alex should have used this situation to be more productive for himself. He should have gone in and started negotiations. Whats he going to do get all Filipino pool players to strike on the BCSP? Doubt it. In business things can always get worked out if you can keep a cool head. Sometime you get the bear sometimes the bear gets you. But you dont give up the hunt. You got to give something to get it. You dont go on emotions but with serious analysis and thinking. The Phillipine nation can be a big support to this young mans career. He should rethink this.

 

[vin]

who will be in the lineup in this china leg?

 

[bandido]

Here's a couple of posts that people in the sport need to really think about before making a judgement. Besides, Alex is not just representing Alex the WPC but Alex the Philippine representative.

Now with regards to said planefare. I understand that such is covered to attend this Asian Tour so it must be the US to Phil fare that's being referred to. This then couldn't be used against the organizers as his reasons for such trip is more non-pool related. IMO, this issue went for the worst because most of the interactions happened through the news media.

This issue also begs for a reality check. Pool events and players are "possible" marketing vehicles for big non-ppol related corporations or entities. So, if any such event or player doesn't perform to expectation of or acts in a manner benefial to such sponsors , then..........Sad thing but true is, he who holds the gold makes the rules.

I doubt anyone in the billiards industry is making "big bucks" supporting pool events. Financially, right now, it's a poor sport. And the truth is that it takes a lot of money to make these events happen in the first place. And one of the standard ways a sponsor/promoter would generate revenue (spelled: cover expenses) for an event (and build a fan base for future events) would be to use a player's likeness for promotional purposes. I think that's pretty standard fare and can end up helping a player by establishing his identity with the fans -- not only the hardcore fans, but also with the casual fans who are less familiar with who the players are.

"Going to the media" is often a double-edged sword.... so, IMO, all Alex is doing is "pissing in his Cheerios." He will look and feel like a hero for a day, but that day will pass and all he will be left with are some stinky Cheerios, instead of his face on TV and being invited to many pool events ;-)

Lou Figueroa

Are you kidding me? You all go about how Alex did the right thing. How he stood up for his rights. How the BCSP should restructure. Are you going to pay his bills. Sure clap him on the back but he suffers. Alex should have used this situation to be more productive for himself. He should have gone in and started negotiations. Whats he going to do get all Filipino pool players to strike on the BCSP? Doubt it. In business things can always get worked out if you can keep a cool head. Sometime you get the bear sometimes the bear gets you. But you dont give up the hunt. You got to give something to get it. You dont go on emotions but with serious analysis and thinking. The Phillipine nation can be a big support to this young mans career. He should rethink this.

 

[John Barton]

I agree - the whole "promoter didn't make any money" excuse is a load of horse crap. What are people doing these events for if they aren't making money in some form? If they are doing it just for their ego then include some PAYMENT to the players in the budget. Why do the players have to take it in the short end?

This is the EXACT same as the idiots who try and get graphic artists and web designers to work for "the exposure". You don't tell a world champion and US Open champion that he is lucky to be part of your team because of the "exposure". You want him precisely because he has accomplished those things and it's better for "your" exposure.

Congratulations Alex Pagulayan! Dear Guiness Tour, I want to see Alex Pagulayan on your tour. Until I do I won't watch the tour or drink any more Guiness beer. Alex "The Lion" is a true champion who brings flavor t0 the game that delights fans everywhere. You want heroes, here is one!

 

[!Smorgass Bored]

You Took The Words Right Out Of My Mouth

Congratulations Alex Pagulayan! Dear Guiness Tour, I want to see Alex Pagulayan on your tour. Until I do I won't watch the tour or drink any more Guiness beer. Alex "The Lion" is a true champion who brings flavor to the game that delights fans everywhere. You want heroes, here is one!
Doug

 

[GADawg]

I agree - the whole "promoter didn't make any money" excuse is a load of horse crap. What are people doing these events for if they aren't making money in some form? If they are doing it just for their ego then include some PAYMENT to the players in the budget. Why do the players have to take it in the short end?

This is the EXACT same as the idiots who try and get graphic artists and web designers to work for "the exposure". You don't tell a world champion and US Open champion that he is lucky to be part of your team because of the "exposure". You want him precisely because he has accomplished those things and it's better for "your" exposure.

Congratulations Alex Pagulayan! Dear Guiness Tour, I want to see Alex Pagulayan on your tour. Until I do I won't watch the tour or drink any more Guiness beer. Alex "The Lion" is a true champion who brings flavor t0 the game that delights fans everywhere. You want heroes, here is one!

John -

I agree with what you say about the players and what they deserve, but it was the Philippine Association that took Alex off the national team and not the tour.

The Guinness tour will be in Shanghai this week and,even though I wish Alex were here, I still plan to attend and enjoy the matches.